Lwaxana & Alexander Mudbath?

[Trekker4747]

Well... were supposed to sort of take a "monolithic culture" idea away from Trek. Overall the ideals of humans are all supposed to be, by and large, the same.

IIRC, the Rodzhenkos lived on a Russina colony before relocating to Earth at some point.

The modesty issue may have been Worf's alone and not a reflection of either upbringing from his parents or something inherent to Klingons or Klingon culture. (I suspect Klingons wouldn't have much issue with being naked.)

It's possible some people still just have a "natural" modesty instinct that's not overcome by the culture. Remember, Worf was very repressed and controlled compared to even other Klingons.

 

[sonak]

Yeah, we're talking about a Betazoid and a Klingon here. If it were two humans we'd be in a different ballpark, but like the different cultural norms across even Earth today, I would imagine that different cultural backgrounds would definitely be in play in the case cited in the OP. We can't judge them by human (or, rather, westernised) societal standards.

I would say that it's actually more of a recent standard and largely American at that. European culture has less of a nudity taboo and has less trouble distinguishing between the concepts of "nudity" and "sexual."

Also keep in mind that in the past, with small homes and large, often multi-generational families, modesty about nudity would be something that might not be all that common or make as much sense as it would in a different context. (although it's a different situation in the episode obviously since Alexander and Lwaxana aren't related, I'm just pointing out that cultural standards that we often think of as being around for a long, long time are actually VERY recently established)

 

[USS Triumphant]

although it's a different situation in the episode obviously since Alexander and Lwaxana aren't related

Maybe by Klingon custom, they actually are. I mean, four episodes before, Worf asked Deanna to be his SoH-chim (kinda-step-sister) and raise Alexander if something happened to him, and Deanna had joked that it would make Lwaxana his step-mother - a proposition that Worf seemed to take seriously.

 

[Melakon]

I think Lwaxana just liked saying "naked" as often as possible just to offend the sensibilities of primitive humans like Picard.

 

[Memory Alpha]

Maybe there's a lingering twinge of puritanism in my American blood or something, but a 50 something year old woman taking a little boy to the mud bath is a little creepy, isn't it?

Nope. Lwaxana is just de-mistifying all the many taboos that Alexander had been subjected to - because they're silly. And not only that, but that life is more complicated than rules and procedures and sanctions and so on. Which was her whole purpose in the show. In turn, Alexander helps her realize that Campio or whatever is not for her (because he's about rules and procedures and sanctions), and that's a moment where you really feel for her.

"Cost of Living" is one of my favorite episodes, but the 5th season, particularly the end of it, produced some truly great shows, like "The Perfect Mate" and "I, Borg."

 

[Therin of Andor]

Is the mud bath creepy, well not in the show. But I don't think it is puritan to suggest that it would be inappropriate in reality.

The concept is so... alien.

http://gocalifornia.about.com/od/canapacalisspas/a/mud_bath.htm

 

[Makarov]

The only thing on that page about group mud baths is a link to place with a "private room for couples."

In reality yeah it would be creepy if you came home and your kid said he took a bath with the babysitter.

 

[Mojochi]

To me this was never a point of what's appropriate amounts of nudity at home with family. She's clearly not in his immediate family. He barely even knows her

I'm just thinking it's a bit too easy to take the stance that Europeans are more comfortable with nudity, etc, etc... And therefore it is wrong or repressive to suggest innate sexual contexts in it. People have been wearing clothing for warmth and protection since pretty much the beginning of us. It's what we are as much as tool usage is.

The absence of clothing in itself is not a sexual state, of course not, but the absolute key component of initiating sex is to bare your sex organs

I never even asked if she was inappropriate or out of line, because clearly her intentions weren't. All I asked about was that maybe busting out her sex organ in front of some kid she barely knows, and encouraging him to do the same, so they can slosh around in some mud together might be a bit on the creepy side, behaviorally speaking, even without there being sexual intent

I really don't think I'm completely bonkers to raise the question

 

[varek]

The only thing that ever struck me as odd about it was that it would be something that Alexander would want to do.

I agree. He probably didn't care about the mudbath. He just seemed to enjoy Lwaxana's company, since she was about the opposite of Worf! (Read Imzadi.)

 

[jimbotron]

The only thing that ever struck me as odd about it was that it would be something that Alexander would want to do.

I agree. He probably didn't care about the mudbath. He just seemed to enjoy Lwaxana's company, since she was about the opposite of Worf! (Read Imzadi.)

No no, the oddest thing was Worf agreeing to participate. It did provide for a good line though.

 

[Amaris]

I think Alexander likes Lwaxana was because she was fun. Worf represented stern discipline, obedience, tradition, honor™. Lwaxana was all about doing what felt good, what was enjoyable. Her life was a representation of freedom, of the liberty to guide your own path without adhering to so many rules. This would be rather appealing to a child. Hell, it's appealing to me. I'd spend all day with Lwaxana, and likely be all the happier for it.

 

[Melakon]

I think Alexander likes Lwaxana was because she was fun. Worf represented stern discipline, obedience, tradition, honor™. Lwaxana was all about doing what felt good, what was enjoyable. Her life was a representation of freedom, of the liberty to guide your own path without adhering to so many rules. This would be rather appealing to a child. Hell, it's appealing to me. I'd spend all day with Lwaxana, and likely be all the happier for it.

This is why she was sometimes called "the Auntie Mame of the galaxy".

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

I'm just gonna chime in and say that I'm right there with ya, Mojochi. When I first saw that Troi/Alexander nude scene, I was like "WTF ???"

Then when I saw it again on Blu-ray, I was like "seriously, WTF ??"

 

[JarodRussell]

I wonder when it will be wrong for parents to see their kids naked.

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

I wonder when it will be wrong for parents to see their kids naked.

puberty?

 

[JarodRussell]

I wonder when it will be wrong for parents to see their kids naked.

puberty?

Why?

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

I wonder when it will be wrong for parents to see their kids naked.

puberty?

Why?

i dunno. i guess if i have to explain it, you wouldn't get it anyway :-/

perhaps we're just from 2 different worlds, my friend

 

[Therin of Andor]

The only thing on that page about group mud baths is a link to place with a "private room for couples."

I was kinda going on the bit that said, "Reasons you will like a mud bath:

• It's relaxing. In fact, this author thinks it's the most relaxing spa treatment she's ever taken.
• It's fun. Where else can you get muddy and not get in trouble?
• Some people swear by the health benefits."

In reality yeah it would be creepy if you came home and your kid said he took a bath with the babysitter.

And yet going to a public swimming pool with a babysitter is not creepy? Playing mud pies in the backyard?

All I asked about was that maybe busting out her sex organ in front of some kid she barely knows, and encouraging him to do the same, so they can slosh around in some mud together might be a bit on the creepy side, behaviorally speaking, even without there being sexual intent

"Busting out her sex organ?"

So Alexander's in for a big surprise at his first Bajoran wedding (which was almost his Dad's, to Deanna!) if "busting out" sex organs is sexual.

In any case, the two people being judged here, and by early 21st century human standards, are fictitious aliens living 300 years in the future.

 

[Timo]

Hey, I think even somebody who grew up in the DDR would understand a brief bout of nudity aversion in front of one's parents at puberty - but supposedly such things would pass.

The funny thing is, Alexander might well be undergoing puberty here already. Klingons grow up real fast, and just a couple of years after this episode, the boy will be a mature-looking warrior (DS9 "Sons and Daughters").

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Amaris]

I think Alexander likes Lwaxana was because she was fun. Worf represented stern discipline, obedience, tradition, honor™. Lwaxana was all about doing what felt good, what was enjoyable. Her life was a representation of freedom, of the liberty to guide your own path without adhering to so many rules. This would be rather appealing to a child. Hell, it's appealing to me. I'd spend all day with Lwaxana, and likely be all the happier for it.

This is why she was sometimes called "the Auntie Mame of the galaxy".

Well, it helps that Majel seemed to be the same way, and I just adored her.