Star Trek in 4K

[toonloon]

I was wondering what the state of play is with TOS in 4K.

I've read that CBS "future-proofed" the TOS-R project but I think that was just doing the digital effects in widescreen. Did they render them at 4K, I wonder?

Also, did they scan the negatives at 4K then digitally clean them up or will they have to be re-scanned for a new release down the line?

I really hope CBS didn't suffer the same cheap, short sightedness when they cancelled an HD version of TMPE effectually preventing a release of this on BD without re-doing the new effects.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

I remember for a fact that when the Forrest Gump-style fx work was done for DS9 "Trials and Tribble-ations," they scanned footage from TOS "The Trouble with Tribbles" at 4K.

I think TOS-R would have done the same for every episode. The 35mm negatives were scanned with a frame of mind that said, "this is the ultimate, once-and-for all transfer of TOS footage."

 

[toonloon]

Are you sure they scanned it at 4k in the mid nineties? I want to believe you but something doesn't add up. Lucas only scammed Star Wars at 1k in 2004.

 

[JarodRussell]

Lucas only scammed Star Wars at 1k in 2004.

ONE k? Certainly not.

 

[Robert Comsol]

Are you sure they scanned it at 4k in the mid nineties? I want to believe you but something doesn't add up. Lucas only scammed Star Wars at 1k in 2004.

That's delicious ambiguity, the "2K" of "Star Wars-The Manipulated Edition" really has qualities of a scam.

I haven't heard yet of the TOS negatives having been scanned at 4K resolution.

It's obvious that for the remastering of TOS they didn't have all the original live action footage negatives. If you look at scenes from "Bread and Circuses" (inside the proconsul's quarters) or "The Mark of Gideon" (Kirk and Odona leaving his cabin), it becomes painfully obvious that this is SD quality material that either has been somehow upscaled or comes from film copies with SD level resolution. And these are just two examples. I'd say that 15-20% of the TOS live action footage on Blu-ray has these or similar issues.

In 4K such scenes would probably stick out like a sore thumb, so unless they relocate the missing negative footage, I don't see this happening.

Bob

 

[feek61]

Doug Drexler posted some 4K stills from "The Trouble with Tribbles" and they were stunning. I have no idea if the entire series was scanned at this resolution but I certainly hope so!

 

[Prologic9]

It's obvious that for the remastering of TOS they didn't have all the original live action footage negatives. If you look at scenes from "Bread and Circuses" (inside the proconsul's quarters) or "The Mark of Gideon" (Kirk and Odona leaving his cabin), it becomes painfully obvious that this is SD quality material that either has been somehow upscaled or comes from film copies with SD level resolution. And these are just two examples. I'd say that 15-20% of the TOS live action footage on Blu-ray has these or similar issues.

In 4K such scenes would probably stick out like a sore thumb, so unless they relocate the missing negative footage, I don't see this happening.

Bob

You're talking about scenes that featured composites, transitions, or other manipulations. Any scene with a transporter effect or phaser beam or overlayed credits. These were all filmed and then the footage was re-filmed in 35mm, and it created a noticeable loss in quality.

The shots you noticed from "Bread and Circuses" were blowups from the same group shot before the edit to create a close up.

It's all inherent to the final work they produced at the time, and can never be 'fixed'. And while the work is common in every episode it's nowhere near 15-20% of footage.

 

[Metryq]

Are you sure they scanned it at 4k in the mid nineties? I want to believe you but something doesn't add up. Lucas only scammed Star Wars at 1k in 2004.

I don't have documentation on either case. However, 4K in the mid-'90s was possible. I worked on the digital effects for a small feature film in the late '90s, and received files at 2K. From trade rags, I knew that some big budget productions worked with 6K or 8K, but that was really pushing it. (One of my own comps used 4K art, but the output was still 2K.) The scan house we worked with told me that 2K was considered "film resolution."

With that said, I highly doubt STAR WARS was scanned at only 1K, but I have no documentation to confirm this opinion. Whatever one thinks of Lucas as a director or cinematic revisionist, he was among those on the wavefront of movie technology.

 

[Relayer1]

I remember when they transferred the Bond films for the remastered DVD's (note this was pre bluray) they stated the scan was four times higher resolution than the grain on the film (or words to that effect) so that whatever the next generations of media could offer resolution wise, they already had ALL the detail that could be harvested from the original film.

I presume Trek did something similar.

 

[Borjis]

I don't believe CBS scanned TOS at 4k, (same for TNG)

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Doug Drexler posted some 4K stills from "The Trouble with Tribbles" and they were stunning. I have no idea if the entire series was scanned at this resolution but I certainly hope so!

Yep, that's what I was remembering.

 

[Metryq]

I remember when they transferred the Bond films for the remastered DVD's (note this was pre bluray) they stated the scan was four times higher resolution than the grain on the film (or words to that effect)

Lowry Digital scanned nine of the Bond movies in 4K, the others in HD.

Some of the latest films have used very high res "digital cinema" cameras during production. For example, Cinefex lists the use of Dalsa Origin and Sony Cinealta cameras to record the skydiving scene in QUANTUM OF SOLACE. (Prime actors were recorded in a vertical wind tunnel and composited into background plates.)

 

[SpHeRe31459]

I don't believe CBS scanned TOS at 4k, (same for TNG)

Correct. TOS-R was done on a strict budget circa 2006 when HDTV penetration wasn't 100%. They scanned at 1080p. Same with TNG, sadly. It's cheap and easy to handle 1080p/2k workflows these days, while 4k is still bit more costly (in time and storage space and computing power) due to the huge resolution increase over 2k.

 

[SpHeRe31459]

With that said, I highly doubt STAR WARS was scanned at only 1K, but I have no documentation to confirm this opinion.

Yep, it was 2k.

http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com/savingstarwars.html

The 2004 DVD release for some reason was rescanned at 1080p, which is actually a little bit lower resolution than 2k.

 

[Robert Comsol]

You're talking about scenes that featured composites, transitions, or other manipulations. Any scene with a transporter effect or phaser beam or overlayed credits. These were all filmed and then the footage was re-filmed in 35mm, and it created a noticeable loss in quality.

No, I am not, and I'm well aware that once you overlay negatives to create a combined image there is loss of quality (e.g.: "The Schizoid Man" from THE PRISONER where Patrick McGoohan, unlike Kirk in "The Enemy Within", was facing himself in the final composed images).

The shots you noticed from "Bread and Circuses" were blowups from the same group shot before the edit to create a close up.

That would explain a thing or two for this particular scene.

It's all inherent to the final work they produced at the time, and can never be 'fixed'. And while the work is common in every episode it's nowhere near 15-20% of footage.

Well, I rewatched entire TOS on Blu-ray on a 7' wide screen with a FullHD home theatre front projector. Given the image size, fluctuations in picture resolution may have been better noticable than on a 42" flat screen.

I took notes for my deck plan project, but didn't write down index markers where resolution and clarity dropped. Suffice to say that the level of HD resolution for the live action footage is not constant.

Bob

 

[Metryq]

And at 256K, one can make out the atoms and DNA of the actors, thus allowing them to be recreated with replicator technology. Additional seasons ensue.

Farewell to the Master.

 

[trekker670]

I don't believe CBS scanned TOS at 4k, (same for TNG)

Correct. TOS-R was done on a strict budget circa 2006 when HDTV penetration wasn't 100%. They scanned at 1080p. Same with TNG, sadly. It's cheap and easy to handle 1080p/2k workflows these days, while 4k is still bit more costly (in time and storage space and computing power) due to the huge resolution increase over 2k.

TNG was scanned at 2K, as that's the highest resolution CBS-D can scan at with their current equipment. I'd imagine it's the same story with TOS.

 

[JarodRussell]

That is unfortunate. You'd think they'd be sensible and future proofing. Had they mastered the stuff at 4k, they could do a 4k release of the whole show in 5 years or so and double dip.

 

[Harvey]

Having seen all of the original series in HD more than once, I am pretty confident that the "SD" images being mentioned are actually generational loss due to editorial manipulation (I.E. blow up, flop, dissolve, fade to black, etc.).

 

[Robert Comsol]

I won't exclude these possibilities but I'm afraid nothing of the aforementioned applies to the "Mark of Gideon" scene (HD) I mentioned (and others I can't currently pinpoint).

Compare to the DVD screencap.

Here is another corridor shot from the episode (HD) to illustrate the difference (between both HD images).

Bob