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importance of the Bajoran resistance

Hando

Commander
Red Shirt
Whenever I hear about the Bajoran resistance I am reminded of this part from the book Shibumi by Trevanian:
It is astonishing that the Germans managed to hold France with so few divisions, considering that everyone who wasn't draining German resources by the clever maneuver of surrendering en masse and making the Nazi's feed them was vigorously and bravely engaged in the Resistance. Is there a village without its Place de la Resistance? But one has to be fair; one has to understand the Gallic notion of resistance. Any hotelier who overcharged a German was in the Resistance. Each whore who gave a German soldier the clap was a freedom fighter. All those who obeyed while viciously withholding their cheerful morning bonjours were heroes of liberty!
So I have to ask, how important was the Bajor resistance to Bajor's independence? After all there was also that pesky Federation-Cardassian war going on...

Wouldn't you say that the Bajoran resistance is a bit overrated?
 
Not the only factor, but important I think.

The quote you cite seems to be a sarcastic dig at the French Resistance, which I don't think is fair. They were unable to kick out the Nazis by themselves, but one American general said they were worth a whole division to the effort.

The reason we can deduce that the Bajoran resistance was also important was that the Cardassians left without a foreign military driving them out, as was the case in WWII.
 
Wouldn't you say that the Bajoran resistance is a bit overrated?

On what basis do you make this claim?

It was more along the lines of a rhetorical question.

Not the only factor, but important I think.

The quote you cite seems to be a sarcastic dig at the French Resistance, which I don't think is fair. They were unable to kick out the Nazis by themselves, but one American general said they were worth a whole division to the effort.

The reason we can deduce that the Bajoran resistance was also important was that the Cardassians left without a foreign military driving them out, as was the case in WWII.

Yes, it is quite sarcastic.
So what is your view, if there had not been a Federation-Cardassian war, the Cardassian would have still left Bajor?


Perhaps can someone provide prove real-life examples/equivalents of the Bajoran resistance.
Would Indochina be a good one? Or India? ...
 
Memory Alpha mentions that the Resistance and political pressure from the Federation caused the withdrawal. It also mentions the diversion of ships from Bajor to the Minos Korva effort (from Chains of Command).

It is not my view that the Federation had no effect. I just think that you were underestimating the role of the Resistance.

Even if the Resistance was unable to be a significant military factor, they were very important psychologically to the Bajorans.
 
Even if the Resistance was unable to be a significant military factor, they were very important psychologically to the Bajorans.

I think you're on to something with this line of thinking. The Bajoran Resistance to me was less about one military power overcoming the other. Clearly the Cardassians had the upper-hand militarily and "won" the planet. This was more about what the Cardassians wanted beyond that of the Bajoran people. Sure they could occupy the planet, they could kill Bajorans and send them to labor camps, make them do their bidding, but they couldn't win them over psychologically, they couldn't make them concede that the Cardassians were the superior race. The Bajorans never would, because deep down they knew that the Prophets favored them - not the Cardassians, which kept them strong and fueled their resistance to the Cardassian oppression.

Dukat expressed this sentiment quite well in Waltz
"From the moment we arrived on Bajor it was clear that we were the superior race, but they couldn't accept that. They wanted to be treated as equals, when they most certainly were not. Militarily, technologically, culturally-- we were almost a century ahead of them in every way. We did not choose to be the superior race. Fate handed us that role and it would have been so much easier on everyone if the Bajorans had simply accepted their role. But no... day after day they clustered in their temples and prayed for deliverance and night after night they planted bombs outside of our homes. Pride.. stubborn, unyielding pride. From the servant girl that cleaned my quarters, to the condemned man toiling in a labor camp, to the terrorist skulking through the hills of Dahkur Province... they all wore their pride like some... twisted badge of honor and I hated them for it! I hated everything about them! Their superstitions and their cries for sympathy, their treachery and their lies, their smug superiority and their stiff-necked obstinacy, their earrings, and their broken, wrinkled noses!"

So the Cardassians felt superior and wanted the Bajorans to acknowledge that, but the Bajorans wouldn't and kept resisting both actively in the Resistance, and quietly with their faith.

From Kai Winn (to Kira):
Those of you who were in the Resistance -- you're all the same. You think you're the only ones who fought the Cardassians... that you saved Bajor singlehandedly. Perhaps you forget, major, that the Cardassians arrested any Bajoran they found teaching the word of the Prophets. I spent five years in a Cardassian prison camp... I can remember each and every beating that I suffered. And where you had weapons to protect yourself, all I had was my faith... and my courage.

...but I think the line that really sums up this mentality comes from the Jem'Hadar Ikat'ika, facing Worf in By Inferno's Light:

"I yield. I cannot defeat this Klingon. All I can do is kill him. And that no longer holds my interest."

I think ultimately, after most of Bajor's natural resources were depleted, the Cardassians withdrew because they similarly couldn't "defeat" the Bajorans. Continuing to try to do so was a futile effort and without that possibility, occupying Bajor was more trouble than it was worth and no longer held their interest.
 
The Resistance were not the main reason Cardassia left Bajor, but they were certainly a contributing factor.

I see it this way. There is a cost associated with holding Bajor, and a benefit associating with exploiting it. Cardassians were monsters but they were monsters who cared about the bottom line. So as soon as the cost of holding Bajor outweighed the benefits, they were going to leave. The resistance increased the cost of holding Bajor significantly.
 
That line from Winn was one of the few times I actually cheered for her, BTW.

I certainly don't mean to diminish the accomplishments of resistance forces (both real and fictional) throughout history, but the fact remains: Not everyone is cut out to be a fighter. Some people just aren't "made" to be on the front lines.

"They also serve, who stand and wait."
 
You know it might have been interesting to show a few other species that Cardassia had conquered to contrast the obstinance of the Bajoran Resistance. I mean it was the Cardassian Empire so I imagine that Bajor was not its only conquered world. The two subservient species to the Son’a or to an extent the Hupyrian servants of the Ferengi kind of illustrate how they probably expected the Bajorans to fall in line.

I wonder what an assignment to Bajor would have been like from your average Cardassian’s perspective. Sure it’s a beautiful world with lots of resources - but you’ve got to deal with all these crazy provincial religious people who, while weak, could very well stab you in the night or blow up your house at any time. Again, after 50 years of it, it probably didn’t seem worth the hassle and risk.
 
The facts of this matter are obscured by the subjective viewpoints of all the witnesses. Fighting Bajorans of course want to exaggerate the significance of their resistance (and collaborators might believe they saved the planet, and abstainers might feel their non-involvement prevented disaster, but they won't strut their stuff - not because the resistance would have been of greater significance than the other forms of coping, but because when armed people make a lot of noise, unarmed people do wisely not to). But others would be biased, too. Dukat certainly sees things through the glasses of somebody tasked with subjugating the Bajorans, but he was merely a pawn in Central Command's game and did not know what the Union really wanted out of Bajor.

In terms of more or less objective facts, we're told time and again that the Cardassians came to Bajor for its riches, more specifically its mineral riches. We're also told those riches were gone by the time of the retreat. On that basis alone, resistance might have been without any significance. Or, rather, its existence justified certain Cardassian actions, but its absence would not have meant continuation of the occupation.

Certainly the old war with the Federation had no immediate effect on Bajor's status - the occupation went on for years after de facto peace was attained some time before "The Wounded". But the war seems to have purged the neighborhood of Bajor of other Cardassian-occupied territories; planets near Bajor are often indicated to be pro-Cardassian but never part of the Union. We might deduce that the Federation was pissed off at the Cardassians and relatively easily stripped them of most off-homeworld possessions, but stopped short of taking "back" Bajor because they knew this planet was a "crown jewel" Cardassia would not relinquish without a bloodshed, and nobody wanted a bloodshed. Bajor really was the last stop before Cardassia Prime itself, judging by multiple references to these two systems being basically immediate neighbors.

The failed attempt at a rematch in "Chain of Command" did seem to immediately precede the Central Command orders to withdraw from Bajor. Possibly Bajor would otherwise have been retained as part of the Union even after losing all its mineral worth, but the utter failure of the Central Command in the TNG adventure made it lose favor and be trampled by the other parts of the Cardassian government triad. The orders to withdraw might have been punishment imposed on the Central Command for its fruitless, indeed humiliatingly backfiring adventurism. (And when the wormhole was discovered immediately afterwards, those issuing the orders were in turn humiliated!)

Sure it’s a beautiful world with lots of resources - but you’ve got to deal with all these crazy provincial religious people who, while weak, could very well stab you in the night or blow up your house at any time.
Let's remember that those being hurt by guerrilla action are very seldom in a position to order or even suggest a withdrawal. Indeed, if local freedom fighters kill a lot of occupying troops and their support forces and families, it's a good thing for the occupying force, because it justifies the continuation of the occupation, now complete with harsh punitive measures. Making the occupying soldiers scared is not going to make the occupation a) go away or b) become easier to tolerate - quite the opposite!

Timo Saloniemi
 
Or, rather, its existence justified certain Cardassian actions

I want to see what Kira would do if she heard somebody say that. :rofl:

By 'Certain Cardassian actions', I don't see what else you could be talking about but the rounding up and execution of civilians and the deathly conditions of labor camps.

It's clear the resistance was not the sole contributing factor to the Cardassian withdrawal. And it's true that the people who make the decision to withdrawal aren't the people dying on the front, but they are the people writing the checks. Suppose there were no resistance. Those checks they are writing are a lot smaller than the the checks they had to write with the resistance.

You could make the same argument about the American Revolution, the British lost because the checks they would have had to write to maintain control were too big to be worth it.

Because of the Bajoran resistance they had to station more soldiers there, train more soldiers, buy more weapons, make security more strict. All that has a pretty damn big price tag, money and resources that they needed more elsewhere, and that's what won the Bajorans their freedom.
 
Memory Alpha mentions that the Resistance and political pressure from the Federation caused the withdrawal. It also mentions the diversion of ships from Bajor to the Minos Korva effort (from Chains of Command).

It is not my view that the Federation had no effect. I just think that you were underestimating the role of the Resistance.

Even if the Resistance was unable to be a significant military factor, they were very important psychologically to the Bajorans.

I agree. The Bajorans had been a peaceful race before the Cardassian Occupation, so they were unskilled initially in the arts of war. Eventually, however, they learned how to organize a resistance and gain momentum against the invaders.
As you say, they not only fought the Cardassians militarily, but also used political means and acquired assistance from the Federation (possibly from the Klingons and Ferengi, too).
 
All that has a pretty damn big price tag

Does it, really? Troops could be dirt cheap for the militaristically oriented Union. And it wouldn't cost that much to keep the force fresh because for every new soldier shipped in, a previous one would have liberated his paycheck on account of no longer being alive to cash it.... Of course, countering the resistance wouldn't necessarily call for more military presence, either - it could be done by using the existing presence more ruthlessly. The difference in price tag between merely garrisoning a thousand soldiers and having a hundred of them conduct daily punitive expeditions and mass executions could well be minimal. Heck, Trek armies don't even have to pay for bullets!

Cardassia could also simply ignore the resistance. So what if a few people on the surface die every now and then? The big refinery is up in orbit, untouchable by enemy action. The camps can't be liberated even from their regular guards, the ones needed to control the inmates/slaves. And few of the locals are actually ready to support the fighters anyway.

Timo Saloniemi
 
^I believe you are overstating how military-oriented Cardassia was. Episodes like Cardassians, Second Skin, and Way of the Warrior suggest that civilian authorities could wrestle control of policy, if not the entire government, from the military. Indeed, the decision to evacuate Bajor was described as being taken by the civilian government.
 
All that has a pretty damn big price tag

Does it, really? Troops could be dirt cheap for the militaristically oriented Union. And it wouldn't cost that much to keep the force fresh because for every new soldier shipped in, a previous one would have liberated his paycheck on account of no longer being alive to cash it....

More soldiers' paychecks: Cheap.
Training those soldiers: Not so much.

You think you can hold Bajor without a strong military presence on the surface? They weaken their military presence for a second the civilian population gets emboldened and they all join the resistance.

I recommend the movie Battle of Algiers.

Subjugating the civilian population of an entire planet = $$$$$$$$$
 
You think you can hold Bajor without a strong military presence on the surface? They weaken their military presence for a second the civilian population gets emboldened and they all join the resistance.
Sounds unlikely. Bajorans were a rigid caste-based society of people trained to accept their fate - it might be really hard going, trying to get somebody not from the warrior caste (if they even had one) to pick up a Klingon rifle or a Talarian photon grenade. Not to mention the difficulty of importing those things in the first place!

We never hear of a battle in which Bajor would have been conquered. It's not France, a nation with one of the strongest armies in Europe, capitulating in face of overwhelming force and ceding half the country to the hated enemy, with the other half intact and with everybody stashing weapons in basements and barns. It's apparently a nation with no military tradition, where only a select, untrained few of the insulted and injured decide to attempt revenge of some sort, with no known success.

As for training soldiers to subjugated Bajor, I trust those would be mere surplus from the general stock: Gul Madred in "Chain of Command" makes it very much sound that Cardassia is sustained by constant conquest alone, and all wealth stems from the military, suggesting said organization is heavily occupied with occupations and the like anyway. Considering the lack of evidence for actual effective resistance on Bajor (prior to the withdrawal, after which all sorts of prison camp liberation heroics of course emerged), this may well have been the choice assignment of a Cardassian trooper...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Bajorans were a rigid caste-based society of people trained to accept their fate
Forced relocation, forced labor and meager conditions have historically done a good number on existing social structures. The d'jaras should not have been an impediment.
 
^ That is why the Prophets allowed, or even encouraged the occupation. So the caste system is eliminated.
 
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