Members of the Federation.

[Enterprise1701]

No, the future of "Azati Prime" was the original timeline in which the Federation blocked the Sphere Builders. The SBs goaded the Xindi to attack Earth in order to alter that timeline by preventing the Federation from ever existing. As I see it, the "Azati Prime" future was their first attempt to invade our universe and the creation of the Delphic Expanse was the second, creating a different timeline by intervening earlier in history.

Anyway, I'm missing a step in the logic behind this argument. What does it matter whether the Andorians are still around or where their planet is in its orbit? Procyon is still named Procyon whether they're there or not.

The Delphic Expanse argument is tangential I guess. But then how did the Sphere Builders create the Delphic Expanse in the "Azati Prime" timeline if in that timeline they didn't deploy the spheres by the 22nd century as in the prime timeline as you say?

Now on a different note, is anyone here besides me annoyed at how often Star Trek conflates states, capital planets/moons, and species as "members" of the Federation? The Federation is a political institution, and therefore member states should be consistently the "members" of the Federation. After all, aren't a fair number of humans not Federation citizens, members states like the United Rigel Worlds and Colonies containing multiple constituent species, the Beteulgeusians maybe not even having a current capital planet, and some Federation citizens like Rugal Pa'Dar not even from Federation planets, etc.?

 

[Christopher]

The Delphic Expanse argument is tangential I guess. But then how did the Sphere Builders create the Delphic Expanse in the "Azati Prime" timeline if in that timeline they didn't deploy the spheres by the 22nd century as in the prime timeline as you say?

That's not what I said. What I meant was that after their first attempt to deploy the spheres sometime in the future was thwarted by the Federation, they went back and deployed the spheres earlier in order to prevent the Federation from existing at all. Basic time-travel logic: if someone beats you, go back to before it happened and undo it.

 

[Sci]

Now on a different note, is anyone here besides me annoyed at how often Star Trek conflates states, capital planets/moons, and species as "members" of the Federation? The Federation is a political institution, and therefore member states should be consistently the "members" of the Federation. After all, aren't a fair number of humans not Federation citizens, members states like the United Rigel Worlds and Colonies containing multiple constituent species, the Beteulgeusians maybe not even having a current capital planet, and some Federation citizens like Rugal Pa'Dar not even from Federation planets, etc.?

I find it a bit frustrating sometimes, but ultimately it's no worse than the real-world tendency to conflate nations, states, and countries in American vernacular. It does seem that most Federation Member States' territories are essentially coterminous with only a single planet or a single capital planet and a couple of less-developed in-system colonies, though.

 

[Markonian]

Maybe it's similar to how countries/governments are often referred to by their capitals. And member territory is nothing but empty space around planets.

The Azati point was, it wouldn't be called the Battle of Procyon V if the system is generally known as the Andorian system, would it?

 

[Christopher]

The Azati point was, it wouldn't be called the Battle of Procyon V if the system is generally known as the Andorian system, would it?

That's no greater a contradiction than decades of fan sources putting Andor at Epsilon Indi despite "And the Children Shall Lead" referring to Epsilon Indi by name. Or, for that matter, TOS referring to "Alpha Carinae II" and "Alpha Carinae V" while also using that star's more familiar name Canopus in a couple of other episodes. Or Sarek being said to have negotiated a treaty with "Alpha Cygnus IX" when Alpha Cygni is actually Deneb. There are multiple such cases in Trek, so it's not a deal-breaker.

Just think of it like "United States" versus "North America," say, or "India" versus "South Asia." Sometimes different place names overlap.

 

[Enterprise1701]

Say, has any Star Trek work ever referred to Procyon as Alpha Canis Minoris?

And Christopher, you say you interpret Daniels's statements of questionable plausibility as necessary lies for the job? What if.....he was lying about at least some part of the Battle of Procyon V, such as if Daniels had actually taken Archer to a 31st century holodeck in order to put on a good lie to talk Archer out of going to Azati Prime?

 

[Idran]

Not according to Memory Beta, though there was a FASA RPG module that references a Canis Minoris XII without specifying which star in Canis Minor it was.

 

[Enterprise1701]

Not according to Memory Beta, though there was a FASA RPG module that references a Canis Minoris XII without specifying which star in Canis Minor it was.

Wow. Not even a usable real-life Bayer designation, eh? No matter, I generally don't consider FASA modules to be viable sources.

 

[Skywalker]

I wish there was a wiki that only utilized novel sources. Memory Beta's incorporation the old FASA RPG, Star Trek Online, and other disparate sources really mucks up the works and makes it hard to tell what's what.

 

[Christopher]

I'm okay with Mem Beta referencing those other continuities; I just wish they'd be listed separately rather than jumbled together.

 

[Markonian]

Memory Beta treats all licensed sources equally, and cannot make a value judgement by picking one continuity as the standard. Thus, there are articles on Challenger NX-03 and Excalibur NX-03, and they're equally valid.

Where one item is referenced across several continuties, the information is included without marker when the sources don't disagree with one another. Where information is in conflict (e.g. Tal'Aura's life post-NEM), the differentiation is made clearly.

Also, not that the novelverse is far from being consistent, e.g. "Dead Man's Hand" vs. ENT.

Personally, I'm glad we include the RPG sources and STO. STO is simply a different timeline than the novelverse and can be marked as such. No need for conflict. And the RPGs, while often massively outdated, often provide information on subjects never touched by the novelverse or STO.

For example, the Bolians are often-seen background aliens, but we never truly learned anything about them except for snippets. We've never even visited Bolarus IX before! Therefore, the Worlds RPG currently remains the only source on the planet.

 

[Skywalker]

I'm okay with Mem Beta referencing those other continuities; I just wish they'd be listed separately rather than jumbled together.

That would be better, yes.

 

[Christopher]

Memory Beta treats all licensed sources equally, and cannot make a value judgement by picking one continuity as the standard. Thus, there are articles on Challenger NX-03 and Excalibur NX-03, and they're equally valid.

Where one item is referenced across several continuties, the information is included without marker when the sources don't disagree with one another. Where information is in conflict (e.g. Tal'Aura's life post-NEM), the differentiation is made clearly.

I haven't found that to be the case. If it were clearly differentiated, then information from different sources would be under separate headings, as is the case on articles like those for the Rigel planets, which differentiate the FASA version from the Decipher RPG version and so on. But I routinely see information from conflicting sources jumbled together in consecutive paragraphs without any differentiation. Sure, if a reader already understands that the novels, the comics, and STO are incompatible continuities, then they can use their own judgment to differentiate them. But a lot of people aren't going to be so clear on that, and thus the intermixed format won't help them understand the difference.

 

[CaptainDonovin]

The Xyrillians have been mentioned in the thread, I would imagine the early Federation would try & get them to join seeing as their version of the holodeck was a superior technology to Starfleet's. If I remember, didn't they share that w/ the Klingons so they wouldn't destroy the Xyrillian ship?

 

[Deranged Nasat]

The Xyrillians have been mentioned in the thread, I would imagine the early Federation would try & get them to join seeing as their version of the holodeck was a superior technology to Starfleet's. If I remember, didn't they share that w/ the Klingons so they wouldn't destroy the Xyrillian ship?

The Rise of the Federation books briefly address this. The Klingons put the holographic tech they'd acquired to distasteful use, and the Xyrillian government and their closest trading partners decide to implement laws forbidding the sale of holotech to aliens. So presumably they'd refuse Federation overtures.

That said, The Case of the Colonist's Corpse, an TOS novel, mentions that Starfleet is hoping to install some Xyrillian tech aboard their ships (replicator-type stuff, I believe?), so maybe the Xyrillians loosen restrictions as time goes by.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I'm okay with Mem Beta referencing those other continuities; I just wish they'd be listed separately rather than jumbled together.

That would be better, yes.

There were a few entries that I tried to edit to make them separate the continuities like that, but some jackass kept undoing whatever I'd done. Eventually I just gave up.

 

[Markonian]

There were a few entries that I tried to edit to make them separate the continuities like that, but some jackass kept undoing whatever I'd done. Eventually I just gave up.

Memory Beta is a collaborative effort. No single person can impose structures. Conflicts of opinion as you describe can be addressed on talk pages.

Don't be discouraged. Some of my formatting gets reworked, too.

 

[Sci]

There were a few entries that I tried to edit to make them separate the continuities like that, but some jackass kept undoing whatever I'd done. Eventually I just gave up.

Memory Beta is a collaborative effort. No single person can impose structures. Conflicts of opinion as you describe can be addressed on talk pages.

That is a far more optimistic assessment of who dominates Memory Beta than I would be inclined to hold.

 

[Markonian]

Memory Beta is a collaborative effort. No single person can impose structures. Conflicts of opinion as you describe can be addressed on talk pages.

That is a far more optimistic assessment of who dominates Memory Beta than I would be inclined to hold.

Not to call names, but am I right to assume you are referring to a specific individual?

On a side note, the article on Rigelians now differentiates between the novelverse and other continuities, at least concerning the various species. It's a start.

 

[Defcon]

I don't know how it is these days, but when I was somewhat active at MB a couple of years ago, CaptainMike handled MB as if it was his personal playground.

Although I personally had no fights with him (I guess German translations fell out of his focus of interest) I just left (and I think I wasn't the only one), since the whole feeling of the site was extremely hostile thanks to him IMO.