Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

[TREK_GOD_1]

Although too, without that same negligence (paradoxically), the Earth itself would've been completely destroyed and much of the human race obliterated, since that chain of events basically put Admiral Kirk and his crew in position to rescue the Federation from the Whale Probe when all other Starfleet assets within range had been neutralized.

In 20/20 hindsight, many historians from Capt. Picard's era likely consider the loss of three starships as being an eminently worthwhile tradeoff.

Well said. Kirk saved humankind (and everyone else on earth at the time) due to the kind of behavior some would try to criticize. He's above blame for Khan (Starfleet did not do their homework), Genesis, or the Klingons--the latter already using spies to obtain the "secret" of Genesis.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

Timo: Google was inspired by Spock's library-computer. That's why Google's version of Siri is named Majel.

 

[Clark Terrell]

Well said. Kirk saved humankind (and everyone else on earth at the time) due to the kind of behavior some would try to criticize. He's above blame for Khan (Starfleet did not do their homework), Genesis, or the Klingons--the latter already using spies to obtain the "secret" of Genesis.

Which is what I think cooler heads in Starfleet realized when it came time for Kirk's court martial. Notice that Morrow wasn't present for anything post-TSFS. Was he asked to resign because of what happened? Was he demoted? Kirk and his friends were a convenient scapegoat for a situation that was not of their making.

 

[austen_pierce]

Why does Khan want or even care about Genesis? As a weapon?... Sure but that makes Kruge in TSFS a repetitive plot device. As a means to revive McGivers?... If so this is never explained onscreen. Personally I like the latter because it would give Khan's character deeper depth than the singular obsession with Kirk. As it is, one is left to wonder, what exactly is Khan's plan assuming he is able to defeat Kirk?

Back to Genesis, as others have pointed out, at the time of the initial Reliant Enterprise encounter, Khan clearly let's his desire for Genesis compromise his judgement.

"Let me put it in a box for you" Tim Allen

 

[Timo]

As it is, one is left to wonder, what exactly is Khan's plan assuming he is able to defeat Kirk?

I think the movie does its darnedest to establish that Khan has no plan - that the once brilliant tactician is now a raving lunatic who sacrifices everything to his quest of hurting Kirk.

When Khan isn't hot and bothered by the hunt, though, he appears outwardly rational, and it would make sense for him to snatch Genesis "just in case", simply because it has already all but dropped on his lap. Although the wonderful idea of him wanting to revive his wife does give the movie extra flavor - which I certainly thought impossible after all these decades of us all obsessing about the flick.

Back to Genesis, as others have pointed out, at the time of the initial Reliant Enterprise encounter, Khan clearly let's his desire for Genesis compromise his judgement.

Hmh? I'd argue the exact opposite. In that encounter, Khan doesn't care about Genesis. He cares about humiliating Kirk, because death would be too easy (he has already demonstrated that well enough), and forcing him to betray Starfleet and his girlfriend by revealing Genesis secrets is well worth any effort and minor delay. (Plus it delivers Genesis into Khan's hands, which is a nice bonus.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Clark Terrell]

I think the movie does its darnedest to establish that Khan has no plan - that the once brilliant tactician is now a raving lunatic who sacrifices everything to his quest of hurting Kirk.

Exactly. Khan had an entire starship at his disposal and could have gone anywhere in the galaxy, but what did he do? He picked a fight with an old nemesis to settle an eighteen-year-old score that was largely a fiction brought on by his mental and emotional deterioration-- a fight he ended up losing because he never considered the possibility that despite his advanced intelligence, Kirk was simply better than he was when it came to commanding a starship.

I could spend hours talking about how I believe much of Kirk's command style as depicted in the TOS films was merely leadership by arrogance rather than tactical brilliance, but that doesn't mean he didn't have moments when he managed to put his own ego aside for the good of ship and crew.

 

[Clark Terrell]

An additional point that hasn't been addressed: it's unlikely Kirk had any authority over Reliant's assignment to the Genesis project because if he had, it seems to me he'd have contacted Reliant after getting Carol's message rather than contacting Starfleet Command. But not only did he not do that, he also didn't seem to make the connection between Genesis and Reliant's sudden appearance in the Enterprise's path hours later. It's only after Khan asks about Genesis that he realizes something's up.

 

[Lance]

An additional point that hasn't been addressed: it's unlikely Kirk had any authority over Reliant's assignment to the Genesis project because if he had, it seems to me he'd have contacted Reliant after getting Carol's message rather than contacting Starfleet Command. But not only did he not do that, he also didn't seem to make the connection between Genesis and Reliant's sudden appearance in the Enterprise's path hours later. It's only after Khan asks about Genesis that he realizes something's up.

The reality is that TWOK could have been subtitled 'Kirk has a really bad day'. I mean, it's like the way he ignores basic regulations when Saavik tries to quote them at him, resulting in deaths onboard the Enterprise. Kirk could just be taking his eye off the ball in a number of the areas you describe. He's lost some of his sharpness.

I'm not saying Jim Kirk is a bad commander. But he's clearly a little out-of-touch with what it means to sit in that chair, and it isn't until his double-bluff with Khan late in the movie that he really starts to get his shit back together in any kind of meaningful way. The whole thing was just meant to be a fun-ride for Kirk's birthday anyway, so chances are that when the Regula situation kicks off and he's forced to take the reigns, he's having to adapt to starship command again on the fly after a decade of being behind a desk, and he just isn't coping very well.

 

[Clark Terrell]

The reality is that TWOK could have been subtitled 'Kirk has a really bad day'. I mean, it's like the way he ignores basic regulations when Saavik tries to quote them at him, resulting in deaths onboard the Enterprise. Kirk could just be taking his eye off the ball in a number of the areas you describe.

Absolutely. But what troubles me most about that scenario is that it's one we've seen before, in the previous movie. Decker warns Kirk about not using the warp-drive before it's ready, and Kirk flies the Enterprise into a wormhole and nearly crashes it into an asteroid, a fate avoided only because Decker realized that an engine imbalance would knock out primary power to the phaser-banks-- something he knew because he commanded the ship for its entire reft and knew every system upgrade. It's only after McCoy yells at Kirk that the latter realizes his obsession with the Enterprise could get everyone killed.

I'm not saying Jim Kirk is a bad commander. But he's clearly a little out-of-touch with what it means to sit in that chair, and it isn't until his double-bluff with Khan late in the movie that he really starts to get his shit back together in any kind of meaningful way. The whole thing was just meant to be a fun-ride for Kirk's birthday anyway, so chances are he's having to adapt to starship command again on the fly after a decade of being behind a desk, and he just isn't coping very well.

Kirk was out of step, but that doesn't mean he'd have missed an important detail such as Reliant being assigned to Genesis. His having been absent from the captain's chair for several years shouldn't have prevented him from putting two-and-two together and realizing Reliant must have gone off the grid for them to be asking Marcus to hand over the Genesis materials. And if Kirk really did order Reliant on its mission and forgot about it, he should have been relieved of duty immediately by McCoy.

 

[C.E. Evans]

An additional point that hasn't been addressed: it's unlikely Kirk had any authority over Reliant's assignment to the Genesis project because if he had, it seems to me he'd have contacted Reliant after getting Carol's message rather than contacting Starfleet Command. But not only did he not do that, he also didn't seem to make the connection between Genesis and Reliant's sudden appearance in the Enterprise's path hours later. It's only after Khan asks about Genesis that he realizes something's up.

It was speculated earlier in this thread that Kirk only knew about Genesis because Carol Marcus was involved with it.

For all we know, Kirk may have been the Academy commandant at the time of TWOK and didn't really get brought into the full loop after he contacted Starfleet that something was amiss at Regula I. It could have been a case that as the highest-ranking officer nearby (and also because he was James T. Kirk), Starfleet entrusted him to deal with it.

 

[Clark Terrell]

It was speculated earlier in this thread that Kirk only knew about Genesis because Carol Marcus was involved with it.

Right. I think that's the most likely explanation. Kirk couldn't have known all the details but may have heard about the project given Carol's involvement. For all we know, he may have seen the video presentation and forgotten about it because he had more important things to do but remembered once he heard from Carol.

For all we know, Kirk may have been the Academy commandant at the time of TWOK and didn't really get brought into the full loop after he contacted Starfleet that something was amiss at Regula I. It could have been a case that as the highest-ranking officer nearby (and also because he was James T. Kirk), Starfleet entrusted him to deal with it.

Here's what I think happened:

1. Kirk contacts Starfleet after receiving jammed message from Carol.
2. Kirk explains situation to HQ (Morrow, Cartwright, or Smillie) and advises Starfleet that Enterprise is in the midst of a training cruise and cannot intervene.
3. Starfleet orders Kirk to proceed due to relative proximity to Regula One and offers that Kirk has most of his former senior staff aboard to assist and grants him access to Genesis materials for the duration of the mission.
4. Kirk watches Genesis tape to understand basic idea of project.
5. Kirk goes to Spock's quarters to talk with him as seen onscreen.

 

[C.E. Evans]

It was speculated earlier in this thread that Kirk only knew about Genesis because Carol Marcus was involved with it.

Right. I think that's the most likely explanation. Kirk couldn't have known all the details but may have heard about the project given Carol's involvement. For all we know, he may have seen the video presentation and forgotten about it because he had more important things to do but remembered once he heard from Carol.

For all we know, Kirk may have been the Academy commandant at the time of TWOK and didn't really get brought into the full loop after he contacted Starfleet that something was amiss at Regula I. It could have been a case that as the highest-ranking officer nearby (and also because he was James T. Kirk), Starfleet entrusted him to deal with it.

Here's what I think happened:

1. Kirk contacts Starfleet after receiving jammed message from Carol.
2. Kirk explains situation to HQ (Morrow, Cartwright, or Smillie) and advises Starfleet that Enterprise is in the midst of a training cruise and cannot intervene.
3. Starfleet orders Kirk to proceed due to relative proximity to Regula One and offers that Kirk has most of his former senior staff aboard to assist and grants him access to Genesis materials for the duration of the mission.
4. Kirk watches Genesis tape to understand basic idea of project.
5. Kirk goes to Spock's quarters to talk with him as seen onscreen.

That definitely works for me.

 

[drt]

I concur, probably because for some reason I was always under the impression that Kirk had watched the presentation shortly before showing it to Spock and McCoy.

 

[Timo]

An alternate model would have Kirk receive the "distress call", decide it's too garbled to actually prove that there's any distress beyond communications problems, and vaguely inform Starfleet Command of his decision to go visit his old flame, thinking "This will really cap my birthday". He remembers what Genesis is all about without having to look up anything, but he does check whether there's an introductory file available so that he can impress his friends with it.

Timo Saloniemi