Malaysian airliner feared lost..

[publiusr]

Still, it might be another case of a "dry run..."

 

[Captrek]

OK, I'm confused. News reports are saying that radar indicated the plane may have turned back before disappearing.

Is radar the only clue we have as to the location of the plane? Don’t commercial airliners have transponders in constant contact with air control? Taxi companies have GPS devices that tell them the location of every car in the fleet in real time; I'd expect airlines to do the same with their planes.

 

[Marc]

OK, I'm confused. News reports are saying that radar indicated the plane may have turned back before disappearing.

Is radar the only clue we have as to the location of the plane? Don’t commercial airliners have transponders in constant contact with air control? Taxi companies have GPS devices that tell them the location of every car in the fleet in real time; I'd expect airlines to do the same with their planes.

For long haul flights once at cruise altitude and over water contact with ATC is only as necessary (for example adviser that you're leaving a particular airspace or if there's an action that needs to be taken or position reports).

And yes they have a transpoder - that's what identifies the aircraft to the radar. If the trasnpoder goes off the air, yes the radar will know something is there but not which aircraft it is.

The other issue is that radar as a limited range and once outside that range the aircraft can't be tracked (not an issue in this instance as they were only just off shore but was I believe the case with the Air France A330 that went down a couple of years back)

 

[Captrek]

OK, I'm confused. News reports are saying that radar indicated the plane may have turned back before disappearing.

Is radar the only clue we have as to the location of the plane? Don’t commercial airliners have transponders in constant contact with air control? Taxi companies have GPS devices that tell them the location of every car in the fleet in real time; I'd expect airlines to do the same with their planes.

For long haul flights once at cruise altitude and over water contact with ATC is only as necessary (for example adviser that you're leaving a particular airspace or if there's an action that needs to be taken or position reports).

And yes they have a transpoder - that's what identifies the aircraft to the radar. If the trasnpoder goes off the air, yes the radar will know something is there but not which aircraft it is.

Why is the transponder not updating its position constantly? Seems like a common sense precaution.

Also, modern airliners have telephones and internet service. Doesn't somebody have to be keeping tabs on their position to maintain that network access?

 

[Trekker4747]

The transponder sends out a signal on a specific channel to let ATC and other agencies track the plane. Those places assign the plane the transponder number and fill in the details. Change the transponder code and the tracking equipment on the ground won't know the details of that new code. Further, like any devices on a plane, the transponder can be turned off or damaged.

As for GPS and other tracking devices, also able to be damaged or turned off.

As for airphones they're send only, they don't have numbers to call or recieve, Also a rarity these days, doubt they'd be on a new plane.

I've heard stories that family members have tried calling the phones of loved ones and the calls are connecting, just not being answered. Suggesting personal phones in the plane are still active. If they were off, dead, or destroyed the calls wouldn't connect and go either voicemail or an error message.

 

[Marc]

OK, I'm confused. News reports are saying that radar indicated the plane may have turned back before disappearing.

Is radar the only clue we have as to the location of the plane? Don’t commercial airliners have transponders in constant contact with air control? Taxi companies have GPS devices that tell them the location of every car in the fleet in real time; I'd expect airlines to do the same with their planes.

For long haul flights once at cruise altitude and over water contact with ATC is only as necessary (for example adviser that you're leaving a particular airspace or if there's an action that needs to be taken or position reports).

And yes they have a transpoder - that's what identifies the aircraft to the radar. If the trasnpoder goes off the air, yes the radar will know something is there but not which aircraft it is.

Why is the transponder not updating its position constantly? Seems like a common sense precaution.

Also, modern airliners have telephones and internet service. Doesn't somebody have to be keeping tabs on their position to maintain that network access?

Because transponders don't work that way. The only worked when the aircraft is probed by the radar.

 

[Captrek]

I've heard stories that family members have tried calling the phones of loved ones and the calls are connecting, just not being answered. Suggesting personal phones in the plane are still active. If they were off, dead, or destroyed the calls wouldn't connect and go either voicemail or an error message.

If the phones were connecting, they'd be located.

 

[RobertVA]

Radar is line of sight, so unless there's a tracking station at sea (an island, ship or one of the tracking planes like those deployed from aircraft carriers) the plane disappears from radar for any period it's beyond the distance where it would be able to see the radar site in clear weather.

The transponder is designed to identify the aircraft on radar screens. The pilots dial in a four digit code assigned by air traffic control. As each digit is limited to the range of zero to seven the system was apparently designed for compatibility with the octal technology available in the mid twentieth century. Since radar is better for determining direction and range, the transponder is connected to the aircraft's barometric altimeter. The transponder sends the ID number and altitude when it detects the signal from the radar site so the computer can match the ID and altitude to the radar reflection.

Some airlines maintain communication between computers monitoring the plane's mechanical operation and the airline's maintenance division. Bandwidth limitations associated with long range communications might have a role in restricting the frequency of those reports. Those systems might be manually or automatically shut down in favor of other functions in an emergency (if they aren't already off line from whatever caused the emergency).

 

[Trekker4747]

I've heard stories that family members have tried calling the phones of loved ones and the calls are connecting, just not being answered. Suggesting personal phones in the plane are still active. If they were off, dead, or destroyed the calls wouldn't connect and go either voicemail or an error message.

If the phones were connecting, they'd be located.

Which is what has the families upset wondering why the airline/authorities aren't doing anything. Though, supposedly, they're looking into that avenue. I don't think those in the investigation are being 100% open.

 

[Captrek]

Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370: Why is it taking so long to find?

Likely scenario, if I'm understanding this right: catastrophic systems failure causes loss of radio, pressure, and navigation. Pilots, unable to communicate, turn the plane back toward Malaysia, as accurately as they can under the circumstances, which may include only a few seconds of useful consciousness. Plane continues to fly for quite some distance with no communications and nobody conscious at the wheel. Not sure of its exact heading, the search area could be enormous.

Alternatively, they were grabbed by Martians and are currently dining with Amelia Earhart. Or Amelia Pond. Or both.

 

[Marc]

Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370: Why is it taking so long to find?

Likely scenario, if I'm understanding this right: catastrophic systems failure causes loss of radio, pressure, and navigation. Pilots, unable to communicate, turn the plane back toward Malaysia, as accurately as they can under the circumstances, which may include only a few seconds of useful consciousness. Plane continues to fly for quite some distance with no communications and nobody conscious at the wheel. Not sure of its exact heading, the search area could be enormous.

Alternatively, they were grabbed by Martians and are currently dining with Amelia Earhart. Or Amelia Pond. Or both.

At the first sign of preasure loss, the pilots are trained to don their oxygen masks.

And there's no way that plane could continue to fly hands off if it had suffered such a catastrophic loss of systems.

A 737 went down a few years back a loss of air pressure causing everyone to black out and flew on autopilot until it ran out of fuel and crashed but they were able to track it.

If the MAS 777 had suffered something similar it would have still be able to be tracked on radar as long as the transport continued to function.

The 777 is also a fly-by-wire aircraft so if the computer systems suffered such a fault as speculated about it wouldn't have stayed airborne.

 

[Captrek]

And there's no way that plane could continue to fly hands off if it had suffered such a catastrophic loss of systems.

Perhaps "fly" wasn't the right word, but from the linked article:

if the engines had died on a Boeing 777 at 35,000 feet, the glide slope would indicate that it could be about 100 miles from the last known location.

 

[Trekker4747]

Still, they would have gotten some signal from the transponder, GPS and other navigating devices on the plane. Not to mention the locator signals from the "black boxes."

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I've heard stories that family members have tried calling the phones of loved ones and the calls are connecting, just not being answered. Suggesting personal phones in the plane are still active. If they were off, dead, or destroyed the calls wouldn't connect and go either voicemail or an error message.

Not necessarily.

Malaysia Airlines Passengers' Phones Ringing? Maybe Not

By Devin Coldewey

Reports are emerging that some cellphones of passengers on the missing Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 are ringing — but no one picks up. However eerie this seems, it may have more to do with how mobile phones and networks operate than any deeper mystery.

According to a China.org.cn report, 19 families signed a statement saying that dialing their loved ones' phones leads to a ring, rather than going straight to voicemail, as one would expect of a phone in airplane mode or otherwise unable to be reached.

But it's not that simple. When you hit the call button on some phones, a ringing tone begins immediately.

"However, that does not mean the phone you are calling is ringing yet," wrote wireless analyst Jeff Kagan in an email to NBC News. "The network is searching for the phone. First based on where it last was, then it expands. Then if the network can't find the phone, the call terminates."

The search for the party on the receiving end may be nearly instantaneous, or take a few seconds — during which time the phone (depending on model, network and other variables) may or may not make a ringing noise to indicate to the caller that it is attempting to make the cell connection. So while it may ring four times for you, the person you're calling may only hear it ring once -- or not at all.

If the phone you're calling is in airplane mode, or is off, out of range, or destroyed, the network may still take a few seconds to confirm it's unreachable.

In a video from a Chinese news channel purporting to show one of the calls in question, the caller's phone appears to ring for only a second or so before failing. The family members who were able to "get through" or "connect" to a missing person's phone, which subsequently "hung up," could very possibly be experiencing this caller-side ringing effect, Kagan said.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/mi...es-passengers-phones-ringing-maybe-not-n49371

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/mi...es-passengers-phones-ringing-maybe-not-n49371

 

[Captrek]

Still, they would have gotten some signal from the transponder, GPS and other navigating devices on the plane. Not to mention the locator signals from the "black boxes."

Then I guess we're back to SPECTRE agents armed with knockout gas and some very selective electronic jamming gizmo.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

After a thorough search of my home, I can confidently report that the missing airliner is definitely not here.

I've done my part.

Alternatively, they were grabbed by Martians and are currently dining with Amelia Earhart. Or Amelia Pond. Or both.

Then I guess we're back to SPECTRE agents armed with knockout gas and some very selective electronic jamming gizmo.

Don't let the death of 239 people stop your one man show or anything.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Don't let the death of 239 people stop your one man show or anything.

Humor is how some people cope. Also, we don't really know they're dead until we KNOW, so until we do, it is more pleasant to think that something bizarre and wonderful has happened rather than something bizarre and terrible. Personally, I'd like for the answer to turn out to be that the plane will somehow make an emergency landing on a sparse section of Interstate 40 in North Carolina at around 3 AM tonight, with all hands and passengers safe and alive. I'm extremely doubtful of that, of course, but I'd certainly take it.

 

[Nociod]

The Malaysian government is downplaying the terrorist angle, as it looks like the two passengers with the fake passports were Iranian nationals, wanting to settle down in Europe.

 

[EmoBorg]

Malaysian Shamans aka Bomohs are offering to look for the missing aircraft now. The choice of Shaman equipment is interesting.

http://sg.news.yahoo.com/raja-bomoh-klia-help-missing-plane-bernama-142834507.html

 

[Amaris]

Well, these people don't need that shit. They need real help. Hopefully they're alive and found soon.