TNG & The Women

Discussion in 'Star Trek: The Next Generation' started by WhateverMan, Mar 6, 2014.

  1. WhateverMan

    WhateverMan Ensign Newbie

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    The case of women and their role in The Next Generation.

    (This will be a long one and is not intended as pro or anti-feminist. Simply an observation. I don't have a politically correct mindset.)

    This may have been discussed before, but it's a subject I've wondered about lately. The subject of female characters in TNG, especially in the first two seasons.
    ____

    Deanna Troi

    Dr. Beverly Crusher

    Tasha Yar

    Dr. Katherine Pulaski
    ____

    Now why is this subject worth discussing?

    Firstly, I would say that there is a strong sense of male dominance (I'm male myself by the way) in most of TNG. Especially the early seasons. Even Tasha Yar, the supposed to be "strong" female character is actually not so strong. I cite the episode Hide & Q as an example. Weeping to Picard after she was put in a penalty box by Q. I seriously doubt a male character would be written to do the same, but because she's female, she has to be soft. Thus, she weeps like a baby.

    My opinion of Tasha is actually a bad one, I think she was an awful character. Badly written, blandly acted and very uninteresting. She's inconsistent in her behavior and often does things that made no sense in regards to her character. I wouldn't be surprised if Denise Crosby realized this and was part of her reason for leaving. I don't blame Crosby, she was handed a very bad character and did her best I suppose. And when I mean inconsistent I don't mean the "relationship" with Data, I actually liked that. Probably the only thing about her that made her character more interesting instead of less.

    Tasha was killed off, and to me, this was good. A bad character was off the show. Leaves more time and more room for the good characters, who all seemed to be the male at this point. Which brings us to season 2. Gates McFadden leaves the show as well, opting to make movies instead. Didn't work out too well (her small role in The Hunt For The Red October was cut to one shot and one line). Recently I've read that she was a victim of sexual harassment by one of the producers of TNG. Perhaps I'm wrong but I remember reading something of the sort, it may be bullshit. (And just for the record, I like Troi. Despite being a very good looking lass, she had a good character.)

    Anyway, replacing her comes, probably the only really interesting female character in TNG. In any regular capacity at least (despite being only listed as recurring). Dr. Katherine Pulaski played by Diana Muldaur. Crusher wasn't nearly as bad as Tasha, but she was bland to a near excessive degree. As if the writers didn't bother to give her anything to be or do. She's hot and she's a mom. She's a milf, that's it. Oh, and she's also a doctor (nearly forgot). She's the hot, doctor mom of Wesley Crusher, who's one of the least interesting characters ever, in the history of everything. I may be overstating here, but a little humor is ok.

    My point is, losing Beverly was also a good thing, from a character perspective. You could argue that she improved slightly after she returned, but I don't know. So for a whole season we get an older (less milf-y) doctor who actually has a character. A strong woman, with her own wit, her own way of doing things and because of that she clashed with Picard more than once. Too bad she only got one season. I'm not sure why she wasn't longer, perhaps some of you know. But I recall that fan reaction was supposedly part of it. The fans (probably nerdy male fans) did not like Pulaski. Why? Perhaps because she was the only woman who stood her own against Picard. Picard who in a way represents the alpha male of the show, the dominant leader who commands. He's supposed to of course, he's the captain. I think the male fans were upset for getting less eye candy to drool at and getting more challenges to the alpha male instead (who they admire).

    It is my theory that if Pulaski would have remained, we would have had an improved series overall. Most of the Crusher centered episodes were wastes of episodes (excluding Remember Me in the 4th season) and her character never grew at all. Remember Sub Rosa? Jeez. Anyone remember her role in the TNG movies? Nobody does, because she didn't have a role in them. She was ornament, in the background. She didn't have a character, there was nothing to work with. All she had was connected to Picard and how Picard brought her dead husband back. And she's really horny for Picard but nothing ever came of that.

    Pulaski was a step up, character wise. She was interesting, she had charisma and she had grit. She was in every way an equal to the male character. I often find female characters very badly written and stereotyped into politically accepted views of what a woman should be. (emotional and soft) I guess women actually know that better than I do. But this actually improved in later Star Trek. DS9 and Voyager had far stronger and better female characters than TNG ever did (aside from Pulaski). I have noticed quite a lot of Pulaski hatred on the internet and I can not figure out why. I just can't see how an argument can be made for Crusher being a better character than Pulaski. Perhaps someone who managed to read all of this without committing suicide (out of boredom) can make that argument?
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2014
  2. jimbotron

    jimbotron Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Funny thing about Crusher. Gates wanted the 'funny' role. When she did the audition for Crusher, it was the scene from The Naked Now where she gets all hot and bothered in Picard's ready room. She wanted to take the role because of it. Little did she know that was the only time she did anything funny, and most of her role meant being stern. :lol:
     
  3. WhateverMan

    WhateverMan Ensign Newbie

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    Yeah, I remember that one. It was also probably her best scene in the whole darn series.
     
  4. mr.peany

    mr.peany Commodore Commodore

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    Must be watching a different series to me. A lot of the Crusher centric episodes showed her to be someone who was strong minded and someone who was unafraid of standing up for what she believed in. In fact, against the rest of the cast, she was probably the most likely to voice her opinion and go against the Captain. Her role in the movies was no more an ornament than the other regulars aside from Picard and Data. Worf, LaForge and Riker all got the short stick in the movies and they weren't female.
     
  5. bbjeg

    bbjeg Admiral Admiral

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    Beverly couldn't be too relaxed, she was a commander. She had to show some resolve. I always like her, she'd be my doctor of choice in the TNG universe. Of all the doctors, she looked the most comforting to be around.

    I agree with mr.penny though. Beverly knew when it was time to be strict, friendly, questionable, and she spoke her mind on multiple occasions.

    And she was definitely a milf.
     
  6. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I didn't mind Yar (barring her "don't do drugs" speech). Given most of S1 characters and writting was pretty hit or miss no one really stood out as being great, so she wasn't the worst or the best out of all the characters. As the writting improved and TNG found its own voice then she would've gotten better. I do agree having her crying in "Hide and Q" was awful, there are other ways to show that a strong female character also has a softer side without making her cry.

    Troi was a bit wishy-washy to begin with--even the writers had problems with her, she is absent from three consecutive episodes in S1 if I remember correctly. She got better over time, but was sometimes blantantly there for breast-appeal. It was only when she got into proper uniform did she start to really look good and became a much stronger character.

    It was obvious that Crusher was just there as Wesley's mother. The early Picard/Crusher relationship wasn't developed as well as it could've been. It was a shame she left for S2, but did get better when she returned. It's only they got rid of Wesley that she could become a character in her own right.

    Pulaski was alright, she was a better foil for Picard, but she was too McCoy-esque. It's a shame we didn't see her again, but not a huge loss to the series.

    It's a shame Ro never became a series regular, or even had more guest appearances. She not only helped shake things up among the characters, but was a good, strong female on the bridge.
     
  7. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I LOVE The Dancing Doctor!!! She is the one Chief Medical with an excellent bedside manner and real empathy for her patients! But in the romance department, yeah ... Bev did seem to have a lot of trouble, there. Always something wrong with these guys, they were either ghost aliens, or trills with rubber foreheads, or whatever the problem was. Kate was too abrasive and crotchety to stay on, BUT ... I do love the actress playing her, and wish Pulaski had been someone other than Bev's replacement. Yar, on the other hand, always ranting to any fresh ear about her hard life on The Planet of Rape Gangs is more of a ripe target. I love the idea of a sexy, statuesque, female Chief of Security, but ... she needed to be better written. I have no problem with Denise Crosby, though. Her heart was in the right place. Troi was just there for T&A, at first, but Marina had a very cute personality and it showed alot, right from the start. And she was always a Team Player and that means alot. Michelle Forbes wasn't going to get enough interesting to do, unfortunately, and she probably made the correct decision to get out. But I love her as Ro, of course.
     
  8. sbk1234

    sbk1234 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It would have been interesting to see what would have developed for Ro had Forbes accepted the role on DS9.
     
  9. bbjeg

    bbjeg Admiral Admiral

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    Was she to replace Kira or become her wingman (or wingwoman)?
     
  10. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    They just tried to rope Michelle Forbes into committing to STAR TREK and she wanted to make movies, at the time. Nana Visitor never had any competition from Michelle Forbes ...
     
  11. bbjeg

    bbjeg Admiral Admiral

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    I would like to have seen Ro and Kira kick but together.
     
  12. HaventGotALife

    HaventGotALife Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I feel the same way as the OP. It seemed formulaic for Crusher to violate the Prime Directive to save some alien. It seemed her only lines, which were overacted and dripping with emotion, were about Jack/Wesley, her playing footsie with the Captain (and jealous of all his love interests--Vash, Darren, etc.), and giving some long teknobabble the moved the plot along. Her bedside manner may have been good, but when she took center-stage, I cringed.

    Deanna Troi was a plot device. "He's lying, Captain," after the Captain is talking over the viewscreen. "Do you sense any life out there?" The interesting thing about her was his empathic abilities. She was fine when they kept her to that role. When she had the center-stage, I cringed again. She was overacted--very opera-esque--and it hurt the series. I point to "The Loss," "Man of the People," "The Child," and "The Price" among others.

    Deanna I could stand in the ensemble. But the women were horribly overacted and emotional. There wasn't much strength to any of them. Uhura was at least dignified. These women are immature and stereotypes. It doesn't matter when the Star Trek universe is talked about, I hate the way it treats women (TOS's guest-stars were romantic interests for Kirk, the overacting of TNG's actresses, The constant T&A on DS9, Voyager and Enterprise's Cat suits,
    Turning Uhura into Spock's moping girlfriend in STiD
    ) they treat them horribly and its dated by the ideas of women at the particular time.
     
  13. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Admiral Admiral

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    TNG didn't have the strongest female cast but I like Beverly. I love characters who place preservation of life ahead of all other concerns.

    TNG had the misfortune of starting at a time right before people actually wanted strong female characters, so it started them out as sort of old school feminine roles then tried later in the series to toughen them up.
     
  14. WillsBabe

    WillsBabe Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I was 21 when TNG came out and I was encouraged to see women in responsible roles. It's easy now to dismiss Crusher as being "the mother" and being in what some people call a "stereotypical caring role" but it didn't seem like that to me at the time. Similarly with Yar. It was good to see a woman in the role of head of security. It felt empowering. I think a lot of people who weren't there at the time don't appreciate that the roles that the women of TNG had seemed forward thinking at that time. Even now I look at the show and don't really get the criticism.
     
  15. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Point well-taken! Why bitch about the women of TNG? Except for the grandmotherly Kate Pulaski, they were all hot! They were sweet! They were strong! And they were cool! If we must find something to complain about, why not examine the flaws in TNG's cinematography, which drive me crazy, at times. Every shot was framed to get it done house-style - quick and dirty and move on. Had they used more handheld cameras and tried to give it a more "documentary" feel, I suspect NEXT GENERATION would've truly benefitted from it.
     
  16. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    Ever since doing the TNG Episode of the Week (Oh, dear. I'm late for "The Loss"!), I found it surprising how much TNG not only played it safe with it's casting by casting the Captain as male, the first officer as male, the android as male, the klingon as male, the engineer as male and even the kid as male. The doctor and the technically other doctor are really the only female characters who have any staying power, and that power is mostly dedicated to telling the male characters what's going on.

    Tasha Yar as a character had a lot of potential towards being an interesting character with a job involving a lot of responsibility but also having a dark history herself. After all, she came from a world where humans are the total exact opposite of what Picard proclaims humanity to be. But instead, every writer puts Tasha in a position of "Idiot Ball" receiver.

    TASHA: Will we make a fight of it, Captain? If we can at least damage their ship we'll have a chance-
    PICARD: Lieutenant, are you recommending we fight a life form that can do all those things? I'd like to hear your advice.
    TASHA: I spoke before I thought, sir.​

    That's from the first episode of TNG. The head of security on the Federation flagship just apologized to the captain for being incompetent. This is one of those unfortunate writing styles where in order to make your lead character look good, you have to make every other character act grossly incompetent. And it doesn't get any better.

    In "Hide and Q", despite being the character who has had star fleet training that is second to none, the writers write her out as a damsel in distress before the action even starts with Q stating that if anything goes wrong, she'll die. Scenes that follow on the bridge with her and Picard does even further damage to her character since Yar acts totally lost and sad.

    But oh, that's not even covering my favorite part of treating Yar like an idiot. In the following episode "Haven", a ship carrying a plague that is headed for a populated planet is not responding to hails nor changing it's course. When the ship is about to enter transporter range, this happens.

    TASHA: I'm certain I could disable their ship with a phaser burst, Captain.
    PICARD: And then, Lieutenant? ​

    And then... they won't be able to infect the planet. Of course Tasha doesn't give Picard any reason because once again, Picard must come out looking awesome and clever at everyone's expense by ordering a tractor beam on the ship.

    And despite all the attempts to bring Tasha Yar and Denise Crosby back in a more positive light, the show still manages to crush whatever good things that were done with her character. Instead of dying a hero's death at the end of Yesterday's Enterprise, she was instead captured by the Romulans, got impregnated by one of them and gave birth to Sela, a character that the show will completely forget by her third official appearance. Totally worth it.
     
  17. SPCTRE

    SPCTRE Badass Admiral

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    Guys. Hang on a minute.

    This is a TBBS thread titled "TNG & The Women" and no one has yelled THE WOMEN!!!!!11 yet?
     
  18. WillsBabe

    WillsBabe Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It's the first thing I did in my mind when I read the thread title, actually! :lol:
     
  19. bbjeg

    bbjeg Admiral Admiral

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    This thread and Sonya Gomez FTW.
     
  20. Pauln6

    Pauln6 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    They could have done a lot better. Yar could have been like Ro from the start and I think Denise Crosby would have stuck around. Troi could have been used more like Picard's diplomatic aide although i think if she had been a projecting telepath with very limited receptive abilities she would have had more room to grow as a character. Crusher was fine, Pulaski I enjoyed immensely but they did try a bit too hard to make her McCoy - even so, I still prefer her McCoy to Trip Tucker's.

    Brooke Bundy could have been interesting if they had been able to keep her as chief engineer in season one and had not made her look quite so stupid next to Data and Wesley. Lefler would have made another really good semi-regular as would Selar, if she'd been something with more scope than a medical doctor. Even Ensign Rager could have been given more to do if Lanei Chapman's performance in Space Above & Beyond was anything to go by.

    I agree with the comments about all the characters being made to look stupid so Picard looked awesome. He often asked Troi for advice and never once followed it.

    Trek generally has the odd individual female character who is really cool but overall its performance as far as women's roles goes is quite poor.