Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

[Smellmet]

Good point!

 

[GalaxyX]

- The Romulan chick who was perfectly happy to provide Earth with a dusting of Thaylaron Radiation only turns her cheek when Shinzon (cruelly) rejects her. NOW, she's this open-minded, tolerant Romulan we are meant to be in support of, because she teams up with ENT-E to kick that same Shinzon's ass ... and because she's cute, I guess.

Yup! lol

The CGI nature of most of the effects is obsenely apparent and the sound effects suck - especially for the quantum torpedoes, which "splat" when they hit. And worst of all, the TNG cast - especially Marina and Gates - are allowed to look like they were rode hard and hung up wet. The ladies look like shit. It's inexcusable, considering the youthifying treatments Kirk and company were given in TMP.

I feel sorry for Gates McFadden. She was probably the hottest female on TNG, but in Nemesis she looks about 80 years old, take a year or so.

I’ll say that Brent Spiner also looked pretty old. However, the horribly caked makeup didn’t help anything. Why couldn’t they just stick to the TNG makeup, which looked 10 times better!

Perhaps Nemesis' worst legacy is that its failure drove Tom Hardy into a downward spiral of addiction and depression that nearly killed him.

Addiction to what? Steroids? He looks quite beefy in Dark Knight Rises compared to the waif he was in Nemesis

Often times, sure, the complaints are justified, but sometimes (and I'm not directing this at you, 2takes) it seems some fans are just saying "This isn't exactly how I like my movies and they should have made it to please only me!" and it comes across as a bit juvenile and selfish. Especially once we talk about how the Romulans were involved and the movie people WANTED with them, which was never shown or intended, which is an incredibly unfair criticism.

When a movie is enjoyable, you find it easier to ignore inconsistencies, and/or missing pieces of story.

When a movie was horrible, it’s so much easier to nitpick everything that was bad in it.

Juvenile and selfish? You've got a directer who cannot pronounce his actors' names right and a producer who thinks that this family friendly franchise can actually benefit from having a three way mind rape of one of it's female characters. A three way rape scene... in a Star Trek movie…

Made worse by Captain Picard asking Troi to do it again for benefit of the ship.

Sure. And there's been NO controversy on this board about THAT at all, has there?

I just pretend Valeris is having a Vulcan orgasm

Makes the scene 10 times better for me.

It has good bits (Data's sacrifice and Geordi's poignant reaction, the car chase, the... other stuff, probably)

You consider Data’s death, and that horrid dune buggy scene to be “good bits”. Wow ok.

But I will say this: The dune buggy scene was at the request of Patrick Stewart, who apparently likes racing cars. The thing is, the character of Jean-Luc Picard had no interest whatsoever in fast cars. He was a genteel space explorer, not Mario Andretti. So Patrick Stewart is actually playing Patrick Stewart in that scene, not Jean-Luc Picard. This is what happens when the film's actors have creative control over the film.

You can tell by that goofy grin he has while driving that stupid dune buggy around. Fuck you Patrick Stewart!

I think part of why the TNG films never really worked that well was because they weren't really necessary. TNG wasn't cut down after only three seasons, it ran for seven, and didn't end abruptly, but rather amid enormous fanfare in an acclaimed two-hour finale that wraps up the show and its themes. Its movies didn't come after a decade of fans wandering in the wilderness, but rather six months later, sandwiched between the third season premiere of DS9 and the series premiere of Voyager. In retrospect, there's a certain sense of contractural obligation in the TNG films that isn't there in either the TOS or Abrams films: they're not doing this because they have an awesome story they want to tell, but instead because the suits at the front office expect them to.

No, the TNG films sucked because they had no scope. They didn’t reach for something epic and imaginative. The good TNG episodes did. All except First Contact were basically cardboard cutout baddies and generic stories about defeating them. First Contact was the only TNG movie that had any scope to it.

interesting points. TNG films definitely had a extended tv episode feel to them esp GEN as everyone looked exactly the same as season 7 and it was on all the TNG tv sets/same uniforms etc. Basically TNG The Movie. INS felt like a rather dull two parter from season 6. FC &NEM had the most movie feel, and FC was riding the alien invasion wave of 96.

However TOS movies all looked/felt like big movies even the lower budget ones. Part of that was due to the big time gap, how everything and everyone looked different

Everyone looked virtually the same in TMP, but the sets and styles were different. They could have done so with TNG.

I think another important reason for the dune buggy scene is that it was the only real piece of location shooting in the whole movie (aside from the brief wedding scene). If you cut that out, almost the entire movie takes place on a soundstage and it starts feeling a little small and television-y, like Wrath of Khan does.

IF they wanted a dune buggy scene, it could have been written into the story, as opposed to some throwaway cameo moment that makes zero difference to the story.

Remove the stupid dune buggy
Remove B4
Remove the mind-rape stuff
Redo the dumb "Shinzon spends ages persuading them he's good, then in the next scene they find out the truth"
Bigger roles for the non-Picard non-Data crew

For a radical change, they could have done was kill off Picard early in the film, say on buggy planet, and have them encounter his evil twin at Romulus. Have Data die at the end of the film too, as Spiner was far too big for his boots at this point.

You lost me at killing Data. And why does Picard have to die. What’s wrong with you people wanting to see beloved characters die? Fuck you all!!

It seemed like an extension of his obsessive hatred for Picard to me. Picard had everything, the humans had everything, Shinzy was raised in a mine by abusive Romulans and freaky Remans and was nothing but a duplicate anyway. The echo wanted to wipe out the voice and everything important to it.

I get this is what they were trying to sell. Really it’s just grasping at straws for a plot. It’s just not believable.

2. How "Trek" would it have been if Picard were fighting Shinzon to save Romulus? Stopping the genocide of their sworn enemy by risking their lives. That risk, in the end, brings peace between two worlds. Beautiful.

This is what I was expecting to be honest. It would have been very TNG’ish.

That "annotation" is juveline tripe worse than the screenplay it flaccidly attempts to skewer. I didn't bother beyond script page 1.

Reminds me of MST3k, which to me is almost as bad as this. Perhaps equal.

Even taking away the dilemma, and making it a straight "save the Baku!" movie the audience is left with "WTF are the Baku and why do we care about a group we've never seen before and won't see again?”

No, the problem wasn’t that the Baku were unknown. The problem was that they were arrogant pricks who seems to not deserve having their sorry asses saved. Also the movie heavily implied that Picard just wanted to get his dick wet inside some sweet sweet Anji pussy, and that was the sole reason he was doing what he did.

" but a big reason why Kahn worked in Star Trek II was because he was original in an episode of the show. There was a history there for both the characters and the audience to build off of.

I would say Khan worked because Ricardo Montalban played him so deliciously over the top, like a must ache twirling villain, but with some pathos to the character. He made you feel Khan’s anger at what he believed Kirk had done to him. Shinzon is just a whiny brat that seems to small for the shoes he’s trying to fill.

As for Data's death, like Kirk's, I was ok with it. For me, it was the completion of the "Data wants to be human" story arc that started all the way back in 1987 with "Encounter at Farpoint." By sacrificing himself for the good of his friends, he finally discovered his humanity. Plus, I agree with Brent Spiner, he could not keep playing Data forever. For an ageless android, he was starting to look old.

I hated both deaths, and feel they were completely unnecessary.

I believe us that loved the character of Data could give less of a fuck if he looked older. If they wanted to they could just write a throwaway line to explain it (something like he wants to “age” along with his friends, fuck, almost anything works)

Fuck you to all of you who are “ok” with Data’s death. That was the worst part of the movie, and the one thing I can’t forgive.

Generations as a concept is a great story, but when you realize that the entire premise of Generations and Kirk's return are predicated on Picard's inability to win a fist fight with a crazed scientist you begin to realize how silly the whole thing is.

What makes it worse is how he goes from geriatric old coot, incapable of punching another old coot, to Space Rambo in First Contact. Would have been awesome if they tied that together somehow.

Yep. The movie's biggest mistake that cancelled out all the other mistakes.

If Brent Spiner never wants to play Data again, that's fine, but THIS should never have happened. Spiner should have just said, "okay, one last time, but that's it.", and then just quit. I would have been fine with that. I hate character deaths as closure.

Damn right!!!

What’s with character deaths anyway? Aren’t people getting tired of that old trope? Everytime they want to wring “emotion” out of a character, they kill him off in a “noble” sacrifice.

Can anyone imagine anyone connected with the TOS movies ever thinking this was a good idea? You'd be crazy to go to Nick Meyer and say, "Okay, I got a great idea. Kirk has an evil twin! Mwahaha! And for a b-story, Spock also gets a twin!”

I laughed because I pictured that conversation in my mind! Even though TOS did have such an event in the episode “Mirror Mirror” . A sneaky but effective way to write an evil twin story, as opposed to the shit we got with NEM

I don't think that B4 had the processing power to "become" Data. If you take all my memories and copy them into someone with a brain disorder, would it still be "me”?

THIS is why to me the whole “B4 is Data” argument is made invalid.

He's not Data. Data died a noble death. What was left over was just a kick in the crotch to anyone who liked the character. He became most human when he faced his own mortality and opted to give his existence for another, but wait, here comes a carbon copy to take his place and cement him as being nothing more than a machine who can be downloaded into a new body whenever its convenient/contrived/convoluted.

Really?

So Data has to sacrifice himself to become human. What a load of shit!! Even if you were right, the movie could have written it so Data survives, and his sacrifice was still worthy.

A Picard evil clone would have worked better if he actually commandeered the Enterprise, nobody initially suspected, and used the ship to plot the UFP's destruction. The finale could have been good real Picard vs. evil clone Picard in Engineering, and before clone Picard can destroy the warp core Data sacrifices himself. this would have no Tom Hardy, and Sir Patrick playing a double role. lol..

You kill Data again, so your idea is nullified.

An even more interesting variation of that would be if the Romulan plan had been carried out...the Picard who'd commanded the Enterprise all those years was a sleeper-agent clone. The guy who'd spent the last 20ish years with the Remans was the original Picard, who'd become a rat bastard / lunatic. The clone Picard would overcome his conditioning and prove to be the true hero that everyone had always thought he was.

Hah hah! wow! They would have never had the balls to go along with that idea, but I love it! The clone redeeming himself at the end! Maybe rat bastard Picard could have been rehabilitated also?

"Insurrection" will make you wish you were watching TFF.

TFF is only the worst movie compared to the other TOS movies, and even though, it’s not that bad if you enjoy it for what it is and what it wanted to say.

TFF is 10 times better than even First Contact IMO. It completely blows away every other TNG movie.

Oh, I'm familiar with the term. I was just puzzled by its use in that context. I've seen a lot of criticisms, good and bad, directed at the new movies, but that they were too "metrosexual"?

That seemed to warrant a "huh?”

I’m going to guess that the poster meant that in nuTrek, Kirk, Spock and McCoy all look like young pretty boys who are well groomed and seem to take care of themselves physically, as to look handsome to women (and gay men).

At least original Kirk was pretty much the same in the TOS era. Spock and McCoy maybe not so much.

 

[Smellmet]

'TFF is 10 times better than even First Contact IMO. It completely blows away every other TNG movie.'

You lost me right there. Bar the big 3 scenes at the start, TFF is an absolute embarrassment of a movie.

Even the likes of Insurrection - whilst near the bottom of the pile, is still a competently made slick looking movie with nowhere near the problems of TFF

 

[GalaxyX]

'TFF is 10 times better than even First Contact IMO. It completely blows away every other TNG movie.'

You lost me right there. Bar the big 3 scenes at the start, TFF is an absolute embarrassment of a movie.

Even the likes of Insurrection - whilst near the bottom of the pile, is still a competently made slick looking movie with nowhere near the problems of TFF

I'll admit that TFF had some huge issues, but the movie had its heart in the right place. I think it was the most TOS like movie out of all the TOS movies.

Generations was probably the most TNG like movie, but the problem was that it had no heart. It was just a derivative "crazy villain" story, and to add insult to injury, they kill off the most iconic character in all of Trek. Why why why???? Would you permanently kill Superman in a Justice League movie? I wonder if people would be saying it's "ok" if that were to be filmed.

As far as TFF vs FC, I don't know. I admit FC did have some heart, but that most mostly due to Frakes's and James Cromwell's acting ability (in this case, the ability to play off serious material as comic. Usually a hindrance, but in this case a benefit due to the more serious Borg infestation aboard the ship).

FC was an accidental success IMO. TFF was a failure, but a fun one to watch. I always get a kick of watching TFF, and it's probably my favourite TOS movie.

You cannot put INS anywhere near it. That was just a clusterfuck of epic proportions. I don't even know where to begin!?

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

You lost me right there. Bar the big 3 scenes at the start, TFF is an absolute embarrassment of a movie.

All of their scenes were great--and played well on how long they have been inseparable. Moreover, Kirk's "I need my pain!" scene was ST gold, as longtime fans know exaclty what Kirk was referring to, and how that shaped his behavior across TOS, and in TWOK/TSFS.

Further, the heart of the story is classic ST--Kirk and his best friends are all painted as spiritual men, but their lives as explorers--wanting to know more is a rational motive for putting up with Sybok's quest. In the end, they already know the answer (Spock's brother mistakenly thinking he could find a location like some random town), but their faith--Kirk in particular--is tied to their explorer's gene.

Even the likes of Insurrection - whilst near the bottom of the pile, is still a competently made slick looking movie with nowhere near the problems of TFF

Insurrection was pure garbage. The new age characters (unfortunately nothing new to the Berman end of the franchise), pointless, weak villains, and a plot that made the most boring of TNG episodes seem like grand theater.

 

[Smellmet]

You make some good points, but as soon as Kirk gets on the Enterprise in TFF, it's all over for me - odd scene and score aside, the execution of the movie is appalling, it's the only Trek film I've turned off half way through and put another one on. And I am a massive TOS movie fan...

 

[Timby]

Addiction to what? Steroids? He looks quite beefy in Dark Knight Rises compared to the waif he was in Nemesis

Hardy is a recovering alcoholic and crack addict.

I just pretend Valeris is having a Vulcan orgasm

Makes the scene 10 times better for me.

What the fuck.

 

[GalaxyX]

You lost me right there. Bar the big 3 scenes at the start, TFF is an absolute embarrassment of a movie.

All of their scenes were great--and played well on how long they have been inseparable. Moreover, Kirk's "I need my pain!" scene was ST gold, as longtime fans know exaclty what Kirk was referring to, and how that shaped his behavior across TOS, and in TWOK/TSFS.

Further, the heart of the story is classic ST--Kirk and his best friends are all painted as spiritual men, but their lives as explorers--wanting to know more is a rational motive for putting up with Sybok's quest. In the end, they already know the answer (Spock's brother mistakenly thinking he could find a location like some random town), but their faith--Kirk in particular--is tied to their explorer's gene.

Even the likes of Insurrection - whilst near the bottom of the pile, is still a competently made slick looking movie with nowhere near the problems of TFF

Insurrection was pure garbage. The new age characters (unfortunately nothing new to the Berman end of the franchise), pointless, weak villains, and a plot that made the most boring of TNG episodes seem like grand theater.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I loved the scene where Kirk contemplates the plate "To boldly go".

Insurrection's biggest weakness is that it tried to get us to like a group of people that are very unlikeable. Never once did I root for the "Ba'ku" since they come across as arrogant assholes. Rewriting the Ba'ku to be more likeable probably would have singlehandedly saved the movie, even if the rest of it stayed intact.

You make some good points, but as soon as Kirk gets on the Enterprise in TFF, it's all over for me - odd scene and score aside, the execution of the movie is appalling, it's the only Trek film I've turned off half way through and put another one on. And I am a massive TOS movie fan...

The only things I think I didn't like were:

1. The lower budget, which reflected in the special FX and quality of the sets. - Not necessarily a deal breaker to make a good story.

2. The weak secondary villain (A rogue Klingon)

3. Scotty's "I know this ship like the back of my hand". At least they were consistent in showing the results of his mistake instead of forgetting about it.

4. The Uhura fan dance. What were they thinking?


I have other nitpicks, but they are minor ones I can forgive due to Paramount being a bunch of cheap fuckers.

Addiction to what? Steroids? He looks quite beefy in Dark Knight Rises compared to the waif he was in Nemesis

Hardy is a recovering alcoholic and crack addict.

I just pretend Valeris is having a Vulcan orgasm

Makes the scene 10 times better for me.

What the fuck.

Who in Hollywood isn't a recovering crack addict.

And the Valeris this was meant as a joke, lighten up a bit!

 

[Hober Mallow]

TFF is embarrassing when tries to be funny (potty humor, Scotty hitting his head). "Insurrection" is embarrassing when it tries to be serious (Ru'ofo's scream, Picard's groan-inducing line, "I'm not begging for my life, I'm begging for yours.")

 

[Timby]

Who in Hollywood isn't a recovering crack addict.

Hardy spent nearly a decade in serious trouble before he made the decision to get treatment. It caused the end of his first marriage and he will likely face some unpleasant health issues in a decade or two.

Stay classy, GalaxyX.

 

[USS Firefly]

Thet should have used Commander Tomalak, I loved Andreas Katsulas in TNG.

 

[GalaxyX]

Who in Hollywood isn't a recovering crack addict.

Hardy spent nearly a decade in serious trouble before he made the decision to get treatment. It caused the end of his first marriage and he will likely face some unpleasant health issues in a decade or two.

Stay classy, GalaxyX.

I can't feel sorry for people that make millions of dollars and decide to waste all that money on drugs.

I could retire on half that much, and these guys make this kind of money on a yearly basis.

Nope, sorry, my basket ran out of fucks to give.

 

[Hober Mallow]

I can't feel sorry for people that make millions of dollars and decide to waste all that money on drugs.

lots of people outside of Hollywood have drug problems. How do you feel about people who don't make millions of dollars but still waste what little they have on drugs? Is it the drugs or the money that bothers you?

 

[JarodRussell]

And Hardy had those problems before he had millions of dollars.

 

[Timby]

I can't feel sorry for people that make millions of dollars and decide to waste all that money on drugs.

Fun fact: No one wakes up one morning and says to themself, "Self, I'd like to be an alcoholic and a drug addict today."

 

[Khan 2.0]

Hardy talks Nemesis in latest Total Film:
http://m.totalfilm.com/news/tom-hardy-on-being-terrified-on-star-trek-nemesis

 

[RAMA]

Ive come to one main conclusion: Insurrection killed off future buzz for STNG movies. There was a good ad campaign, the cinemascore was fine from people who went ro see it, but the tv and film franchise was faltering somewhat in the eyes the general public and non-trekkie fans.

 

[Hober Mallow]

Hardy talks Nemesis in latest Total Film:
http://m.totalfilm.com/news/tom-hardy-on-being-terrified-on-star-trek-nemesis

From the article:

"I was terrified," he says. "Every day on that set, I was terrified – which worked for the character anyway.

"You can't hide that, the camera will pick it up. I was genuinely out of my depth. The whole thing was, 'How can I do this?' I took it very seriously."

You know what's really sad is that the entire cast of all the films were -- and I really believe this -- genuinely ready to carry a major motion picture. Everyone from the main cast to the supporting cast to the FX and makeup guys, all the post-production crew, were ready to make some impressive movies. The ones who weren't ready were the writers. They sunk everyone else who was ready and put their all into it. It was they -- Moore and Braga, Piller and Logan -- not any of the cast, who were out of their depths, and the reputation of the TNG cast -- who could have done just as well as the TOS cast -- now has to suffer.

If after four years the only thing you can come up with is an evil twin story, you genuinely have nothing to say as an artist.

 

[BillJ]

You know what's really sad is that the entire cast of all the films were -- and I really believe this -- genuinely ready to carry a major motion picture. Everyone from the main cast to the supporting cast to the FX and makeup guys, all the post-production crew, were ready to make some impressive movies. The ones who weren't ready were the writers. They sunk everyone else who was ready and put their all into it. It was they -- Moore and Braga, Piller and Logan -- not any of the cast, who were out of their depths, and the reputation of the TNG cast -- who could have done just as well as the TOS cast -- now has to suffer.

I disagree. The entire TNG movie franchise felt like episodes. From the way they were written to the way they were directed to the sets looking really cheap.

From interviews, Braga and Moore (I'm not a fan of either one) said they were handed a checklist of things they needed to accomplish in Star Trek: Generations. With the studio being very hands on during the entire process. Having the top dictate how a movie is written is usually a recipe for disaster.

 

[Melakon]

Despite all the flak Rick Berman gets as keeper of the franchise, there were still people above him with their own ideas of what Star Trek should be.