How powerfull is the stardrive section?

[blssdwlf]

@Egger - If the longest phaser strip is the most powerful, we would see the dorsal saucer phaser strip used more exclusively, particularly in scenarios where they were firing to destroy an enemy ship. Instead we get:

- E-D attacking a Husnock ship - used saucer ventral phaser strip and torpedoes.
- Odyssey attacking Jem'hedar ships - used saucer ventral phaser strip.
- E-D attacking Borg ship - saucer dorsal phaser strip + 2 warp pylon point emitters.
- In the DS9 space battles, we don't see the Galaxy-class ships adjusting their attitude to bring the dorsal phaser array to bear and it's pretty much whatever is in the firing arc.
- Also in "A Matter of Time" when they discharged all their EPS taps through the phasers they fired through the 2nd longest strip, the saucer ventral, instead of the longest one (saucer dorsal) which also was in the firing arc.

For comparison, the phaser strip lengths of the Galaxy-class using the Saucer Dorsal as baseline:

Saucer Dorsal Strip Length 100%
Saucer Ventral Strip Length 77%
Secondary Hull Ventral Strip Length 11%
Warp Pylons Lateral Strip Length 5% each
Small Strips 2% each

Personally, I think it's just redundancy. From "The Nth Degree" it would seem that they only need 40 phaser emitters to channel maximum phaser power so any extra emitters on that strip is just for redundancy and/or firing arc.

 

[Egger]

Something just occured to me:

If a very short phaser array (let's say a Galaxy pylon strip) is as powerful as a very long one, two short strips would be two times as powerful as one very long array. It would be much better to have many short strips so you can combine their firepower. Alternatively a very long array could fire many beams simultaneously at the same target to accomplish this but we never see this. Sometimes we see two beams but never as many as possible (If you divide the circa 930 emitters of the dorsal saucer array by your number of 40, you get about 23 parts which could channel maximum power).
But maximum firepower from one array seems to be always one beam.

It could be that your 40 emitters can channel as much energy as the ship can deliver to the whole phaser system. But that would also mean that only one array at the time can fire a maximum power beam, so firing more than one beam in situations when maximum firepower is needed would be pointless.

Also if I remember correctly, even in the TNG era phaser banks are being charged. So two short charged strips would be two times as powerful as one very long charged array.
Whichever way you look at it, many short arrays would be better than one or two long ones, and since we don't see that, long arrays must be more powerful.

As for the not quite as long arrays on ships like the Intrepid, Sovereign and Prometheus classes, as I said in my last post, maybe the longer the arrays are, the lower their efficiency is. So only sluggish vessels have the very long ones which can fire in all directions, and more maneuverable ships have more efficient, shorter ones.

Regarding the examples you mentioned, if I'm not totally wrong with my analysis, we should rather try to reconcile those with the above theory then. For example:

- E-D attacking a Husnock ship - ventral array is shorter, therefore more efficient, therefore not so much less powerful than the dorsal array
- Odyssey attacking Jem'hedar ships - many small, fast ships are trying to avoid being hit by the Odyssey's most powerful weapon, also Odyssey's crew is suprised by the heavy pounding they receive, therefore confused, therefore not doing their work properly, or, alternatively, see the first example
- E-D attacking Borg ship - maybe they don't want to fire everything they have at once and hold something in reserve
- In the DS9 space battles, we don't see ... - Good point, or see the first example
- Also in "A Matter of Time" ... - see above

Not perfect explainations, but as I said, I rather try to reconcile those with the above theory unless someone has a better idea how to explain the problems I posed.

 

[blssdwlf]

@Egger - Here's a thought why having phaser strip length = phaser power output is problematic:

In "The Arsenal of Freedom" the stardrive is identified specifically as the "Battle Section" and contains the "Battle Bridge". If the stardrive is meant to be taken into battle while the Saucer Section retreats to a Starbase why would you put the most powerful phaser strips on the saucer that can least utilize it once separated? That would also leave the Battle Section with the combined strips being less than half the length of phaser strip as the dorsal saucer strip.

Something just occured to me:

If a very short phaser array (let's say a Galaxy pylon strip) is as powerful as a very long one, two short strips would be two times as powerful as one very long array. It would be much better to have many short strips so you can combine their firepower.

That's assuming that the ship has more than enough energy fire max power through more than one short strip which doesn't appear to be the case. We've seen in "The Nth Degree" and "A Matter of Time" that the E-D can put all her phaser power through a single beam. So if she had to fire two beams at once, the combined beams would total "max power".

Alternatively a very long array could fire many beams simultaneously at the same target to accomplish this but we never see this.

The most we've seen the E-D fire at the same time are 3 beams. IIRC, it was against the Borg so it might have made sense if they had each beam on a different frequency. The other times (where it was 2 beams simultaneously) was when engaging some drones in "Conundrum" and a Galaxy-class in DS9 firing 2 beams at a Cardassian ship.

But maximum firepower from one array seems to be always one beam.

IMHO, it's more nuanced. More like maximum phaser power can be fired in one beam. You can fire multiple beams, if you're willing to split the power output.

It could be that your 40 emitters can channel as much energy as the ship can deliver to the whole phaser system. But that would also mean that only one array at the time can fire a maximum power beam, so firing more than one beam in situations when maximum firepower is needed would be pointless.

True - unless you need to have the 2nd and 3rd beams at a different phaser frequency.

Also if I remember correctly, even in the TNG era phaser banks are being charged. So two short charged strips would be two times as powerful as one very long charged array.
Whichever way you look at it, many short arrays would be better than one or two long ones, and since we don't see that, long arrays must be more powerful.

In "Conundrum", the E-D was equipped with 10 phaser banks. Since 10 banks is less than the number of strips on the E-D they must be independent of the phaser strips. The way I look at banks is that they can be discharged individually into separate phaser emitters or combined into a single phaser emitter firing. So theoretically the E-D could fire at 10 different targets at once or put all her power into one beam.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Did we ever see two beams come out of a single strip? If not, does the Tech Manual say it's possible? Do all emitters on the same strip draw from the same power feed? Can someone give page numbers in the TNG Tech Manual to where this is discussed?

 

[bbjeg]

I can't recall if I ever saw the Galaxy Class fire two beams at once, cannonly.

 

[Unicron]

The Enterprise does it a couple of times against the Lysian drones in "Conundrum" (pic 1, pic 2 and one of the Galaxies in "Sacrifice of Angels" does the same against a Galor (pic). I'm not too sure if there are any other instances I can readily think of.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

^ Nice. Thanks, Unicron.

 

[PhoenixClass]

Did we ever see two beams come out of a single strip? If not, does the Tech Manual say it's possible? Do all emitters on the same strip draw from the same power feed? Can someone give page numbers in the TNG Tech Manual to where this is discussed?

Pages 123-127

The manual mentions the phaser beam exiting "one or more of the facets" of a crystal that is part of the emitter. So I guess that implies that it can be more than one beam. I didn't see anything explicit about multiple emitters. However, it does talk about redundant plasma feeds to an array.

A caveat about the Manual: It is intentionally vague sometimes. That is intentional, of course, to leave room for writers and the imaginations of fans.

 

[blssdwlf]

Thanks Unicron

 

[Egger]

First of all, everything in my last post assumes that phaser banks are not seperate from the phaser arrays, so read it in that context.

Now, the idea that those ARE seperate would mean your theory would work, but it doesn't invalidate mine either. It would still be possible that only the two main saucer arrays are able to use all 10 phaser banks simultaneously. All the examples you mentioned and IIRC all others too show the Enterprise-D firing a maximum power shot from one of the long main arrays and not one of the short strips. And in "The Nth Degree" we see the phaser beam on the viewscreen coming from the upper right and hitting the probe. Considering the orientation of the Enterprise relative to the probe at that time, the beam could be fired from either the left short phaser strip on the upper saucer section or from the dorsal main array. So that one is inconclusive, but all other instances I can think of where the Enterprise-D fires maximum power beams show the beam coming from either the dorsal or ventral main saucer arrays, and not one of the shorter strips (e.g. "A Matter of Time").

As for the instances where Galaxy class ships fire more than one beam simultaneously, those also don't invalidate my theory. First, in "Conundrum" their enemies are so weak that it's unlikely that they're firing with maximum power. Second, in "Sacrifice of Angels" we also don't know if they're firing with max. power. It would seem likely, considering the mucch more powerful enemy (than in the first example), but on the other hand, there are more enemy vessels to worry about, so they might want to hold some of their phaser power in reserve. Less than maximum is always possible. Or it is maximum but simply not in one beam. All I say is that this maximum is dependant on the length of the phaser array.
Finally, there is the "Best of Both Worlds" example. This one also doesn't invalidate the idea that longer arrays are more powerful. We don't know if the two beams from the pylon phaser strips are as powerful as the beams coming from the long main arrays. There is also the fact that they're not only firing 3 beams simultaneously, but also later many short beams from the dorsal saucer array alone, so maybe those beams are all not very strong. And yes, it could make sense in that instance to fire several beams with different frequencies. Maybe the idea was to see if one of the weak beams comes through and then to use this frequency for a powerful shot with one of the long main arrays.

All that said, it seems the "evidence" could be used to support both theories, although I think the fact that maximum power phaser beams are always fired from one of the long main arrays seems to support my theory more. Perhaps there are other examples we haven't thought of yet. Other than that, we could simply ask what makes more sense: longer phaser arrays being more powerful than short ones or not.

You have a good argument: If longer phaser arrays are more powerful, then the Galaxy classes battle section would make no sense. Or not much sense at least. It could be that the stronger (because smaller) shield bubble plus the better speed and maneuverability of the battle section could compensate for the weaker phasers, at least to some degree. And who knows, maybe this disadvantage is the reason why this whole feature is used so rarely, even in the dominion war. It could be a design flaw.

But my main argument is that I simply can't see the logic in linking many phaser emitters together and giving them the ability to pass their energy from one to another, if not for the purpose of combining their firepower.
Redundancy would be better served if there are many short arrays, so that when one is damaged, it is only one of many and not the only one. Yes, the idea could be that you can damage several emitters of one array and the rest would still work, but who knows if this would always work properly (we never saw it). Either way, having many short arrays would ensure that only the one weapon that is damaged, is damaged.
Shorter cooldown times and/or faster recharge rate for longer arrays compared to short ones at the same firepower would imply that for the longer arrays more firepower would be possible, so much so that the cooldown time/recharge rate is the same as with the short arrays.
Better accuracy for longer arrays would imply that ships with shorter ones couldn't aim that good. I don't know if this is a problem, I haven't thought this possibility through yet. Maybe it's a real alternative, plus it wouldn't make the Galaxy battle section be (more or less) pointless.

By the way: On the 10 phaser bank vs. 11 (or 12) phaser arrays, is there any instance where another number was mentioned? Maybe even the same number as there are arrays?

EDIT: Also, I found this picture which maybe could prove that phaser banks ARE the emitters, or at least every emitter has one:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Constitution_phaser_bank.jpg

 

[PhoenixClass]

I am confused about your distinction between arrays and banks. Aren't they the same thing?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Pages 123-127

Thanks!

 

[blssdwlf]

I am confused about your distinction between arrays and banks. Aren't they the same thing?

Yeah the way it is depicted it depends...

On the TOS E, there were 4 phaser banks ("The Paradise Syndrome") and we got to see the ship fire each bank in sequence which discharged through 2 emitters each time. We also go to see all 4 banks discharge simultaneously through 2 emitters all at once.

This combination of banks was done again in "The World is Hollow..." where phaser banks 1 and 2 are fired at the same time through 2 emitters.

And we also see in "Balance of Terror" where a single bank could discharge 3 individual phaser pulses in sequence.

Because of those examples, it can be argued that phaser banks on the TOS-E were independent of the phaser emitters for that ship. One way of looking at banks is that it temporarily stores the phaser energy and the emitters make a withdrawal and discharges it in at a target.

(Egger's screencap of a FJ diagram would suggest that the bank is physically close to the emitter which I think would make sense.)

Moving forward to the E-D's phaser banks and arrays (strips of emitters) we have potentially the same setup. "Conundrum" establishes that the E-D has only 10 banks. Well she's got more phaser arrays than banks (and also a few point emitters not visible on the model) plus in "The Nth Degree" and "A Matter of Time" it's been also established that she can dump all her phaser power into one beam. This would suggest that a single or a few emitters can discharge all the phaser banks at once on the E-D as well.

Another way of thinking about banks is that they could be associated with a firing arcs like "forward phaser banks" include all emitters firing forward and/or "main" and "secondary" banks where some banks have more capacity than others.

All IMHO of course.

 

[Egger]

This would suggest that a single or a few emitters can discharge all the phaser banks at once on the E-D as well.

Or, because those maximum power beams were all fired from one of the long saucer arrays, it would suggest that only these long arrays can discharge all the phaser banks at once on the E-D. Remember the glowing energy "pulses" travelling across the array from both ends to the converging point from where the beam is then fired. In my view, that's the energy from each emitter passed on to the next and so on and so on until the converging point is reached. IIRC, all the times when the E-D fires a (in dialog as such described) maximum power beam this effect can be seen.
But also lower powered beams can show this effect. Then, less energy is emitted and passed on from each emitter. Alternatively, fewer emitters can emit and pass on maximum power for an overall less powerful beam.

 

[blssdwlf]

This would suggest that a single or a few emitters can discharge all the phaser banks at once on the E-D as well.

Or, because those maximum power beams were all fired from one of the long saucer arrays, it would suggest that only these long arrays can discharge all the phaser banks at once on the E-D. Remember the glowing energy "pulses" travelling across the array from both ends to the converging point from where the beam is then fired. In my view, that's the energy from each emitter passed on to the next and so on and so on until the converging point is reached. IIRC, all the times when the E-D fires a (in dialog as such described) maximum power beam this effect can be seen.
But also lower powered beams can show this effect. Then, less energy is emitted and passed on from each emitter. Alternatively, fewer emitters can emit and pass on maximum power for an overall less powerful beam.

I get what you're saying, but because we have "The Nth Degree" establishing that only 40 emitters are needed to discharge the most powerful phaser they can fire then it shows that only a short section of a long phaser strip is needed for a maximum power beam.

As to the energy traveling across the ends of a long strip to the firing point, we don't have any dialogue to describe whether the energy is adding up or simply being transferred. If the energy was being added together, I'd expect the traveling energy pulse to grow in size as it reached the firing point. Does that happen?

 

[Egger]

I get what you're saying, but because we have "The Nth Degree" establishing that only 40 emitters are needed to discharge the most powerful phaser they can fire then it shows that only a short section of a long phaser strip is needed for a maximum power beam.

What exactly establishes that? Something in the dialogue? Can you show me what exactly was said there?

As to the energy traveling across the ends of a long strip to the firing point, we don't have any dialogue to describe whether the energy is adding up or simply being transferred. If the energy was being added together, I'd expect the traveling energy pulse to grow in size as it reached the firing point. Does that happen?

Sometimes it does, sometimes not.
The first and third shot fired on the borg cube in "Q Who" has growing pulses, the second one we can't see.
One (I think the first) of the shots fired by the E-D in "Arsenal of Freedom" shows pulses getting brighter (sllightly in the beginning, significantly at the end)
"A Matter of Time" is hard to judge.
"Sacrifice of Angels" shows the pulses getting brighter on both Galaxy classes.
The one phaser beam fired by the E-D in "Generations" does not show the pulses getting brighter.
The second beam fired by the E-E in "First Contact" shows pulses getting brighter, on all other beams they don't.
These are the examples I watched so far (because I know for sure that there are phasers being fired). So this is more inconclusive evidence.

On the other hand, to your observation, if only a part of a phaser array is fired in those instances, I wouldn't expect energy pulses to travel across the whole array at all. What could be the purpose of this?

 

[blssdwlf]

@Egger - from "The Nth Degree"

WORF: Sir, recommend full phasers.
PICARD: Proceed.
WORF: Firing phasers.
WORF: No effect, Captain.
DATA: The probe's field intensity is continuing to build, sir. We are in danger.
RIKER: Riker to La Forge. Can you increase phaser power?

LAFORGE: Attempting to now, Commander. Isolate phasers eighty to one twenty. Shunt all the plasma
BARCLAY: To the emitters. Yes, sir, I'm already on it. Ready.

LAFORGE: Phasers are as hot as we can make them, Captain.
PICARD: Mister Worf.
WORF: Aye, sir.

​

As to the question of what purpose there is to show the phaser energy traveling across the surface of the phaser strip is unknown, AFAIK. Other than it "looking cool", it could be as simple as the strip doubles as a surface power conduit that maximizes interior ship volume, IMHO.

 

[Egger]

First, @blssdwlf: Thanks for posting the dialogue. I know only the german version of it and there Geordie speaks of emitters 80 to 21. I guess the translators were confused because he left the "hundred" out. ^^

After I had developed a new theory to explain how sometimes the glowing energy pulses get brighter and sometimes not, I encountered a new problem.
First, if the pulses are transporting the phaser energy for the beam, if they feed the beam, they would need to grow, and second, they would have to remain when the beam is beginning to fire, surroung it from both sides and slowly being fed into the beam until all the energy is used up.
But especially in later instances, the pulses are nothing more than small points which, when they converge, become a brighter point from which the beam emerges. It's like opening a bottle and a metres high fountain shoots out of it for several seconds. It doesn't make any sense. So my choices for explaining this were:
- It's just a fancy, cool looking effect and phaser arrays can't be explained
or
- I ignore every instance where the effect looked like that (that's all but one as far as I know, the one exception being a Galaxy class in DS9's last episode)

I hate the first one and the second one isn't any better. So another theory had to be developed. Finally, I had an idea:

The glowing pulses are not energy that is being transported, but only a side effect of the underlying emitter segments being activated in sequence, the creation of phaser energy shining through for a moment. So, if glowing pulses travel across the array, it means that every emitter from the points on where the pulses started has produced a certain amount of phaser energy that is then stored in a conduit inside the emitters. This conduit is running over the entire length of the array. The individual emitter segments can produce a variable amount of phaser energy, explaining the differing brightness of the pulse effect. When the pulses reach the point from where the beam is supposed to be fired, the energy stored in the conduit is then pumped to that point, where the respective emitter "opens" to release the energy. The emerging point of the beam can be shifted around on the array by closing one emitter and opening the one next to it, and so on. The phaser energy stored in the conduit can be pumped with variable speed, releasing it slowly for a long-lasting, constant beam, or more apruptly, resulting in an intense but short beam.
This of course makes longer arrays more powerful, since more emitters mean that more phaser energy can be produced, but this benefit also has a limit, as the emitter segment releasing the beam has to handle the energy of the whole array. In my opinion, this should mostly limit the intensity with which a beam can be fired, not so much how long a discharge can be. But, there is a solution to this limit, namely the ability of the array to shift the emerging point of the beam around, as mentioned earlier. This ability is shown several times on the different shows.
Another feature of the phaser array is the ability to fire several beams after only one "emitter activation sequence". This is possible by directing the energy produced in this one activation sequence and then stored in the conduit to different emitters in quick succession or even simultaneously, explaining for example what happened in "Conundrum". There we see the glowing pulses run over the whole array only once, but six beams being fired from it afterwards.

As for the "The N'th degree" example, my theory would explain this as follows:
First, a standard activation sequence runs over the whole dorsal saucer array. Then, additional plasma is shunted to the emitters 80 to 120. Then, the beam starts to fire at emitter 80 and then moves on to emitter 120 (or the other way around). On the way, the additional plasma is used by the emitters to produce additional phaser energy, one after another, in the emitter the beam is currently fired from. By moving the beam over 40 emitters, the individual emitter is not damaged by the additional energy, at least not to an irreparable extent. As for why they didn't use even more emitters for that (let's say emitters 1 to 120), maybe the beam can only move at a certain speed over the array and they wanted a relatively short, intense beam, therefore the number of emitters which could be used was limited.

Regarding the issue of newer ships having shorter phaser arrays again, there could be several reasons for different ships.
The Intrepid class for example might have only enough energy to supply arrays of reduced length.
On the Enterprise-E I noticed something else: She has thinner arrays, so the individual emitter segments should be smaller. So maybe the main arrays have a similar number of emitters to the Galaxy's, only because they are smaller, the whole array is shorter. Why a thinner array is more powerful, on the other hand, is another problem that exists independant of my theory. I have an idea for this, but this is stuff for another post.
Another reason for shorter arrays could still be the one I mentioned before: the longer the array, the lower their efficiency is. It could be specifically the part of the array that pumps the energy stored in the conduit.
Or it is something else I haven't thought of. There certainly are more possibilities. I think. ^^

Overall, there is one little problem left with this theory, namely that we don't see the glowing pulses jump from emitter to emitter but move in a smooth fashion, although this only really applies to the most recent (CGI) examples where the pulses are nothing more than small points of light. The same problem is also present with phaser beams moving around an array (with one exception in "Arsenal of Freedom" where not one beam moves, but many beams seem to be fired in quick succession (visible in slow motion)).

EDIT: The solution regarding the beam could be that it is shaped by a forcefield over the emitter precisely to correct this issue, so that the moving beam is more coherent.

 

[EmperorTiberius]

Interesting comments, I will have to watch that episode when I get a chance.

However, I discount the argument that you can shoot down the big array theory by asking why they don't they always shoot from the upper array. Things like angle, cooling, etc could come into play. Most of the shots fired in TNG come from the big two, small ones are hardly ever used.

 

[Egger]

Interesting comments, I will have to watch that episode when I get a chance.

May I ask which episode you mean?