Woody Allen responds to abuse allegations

[2takesfrakes]

The Public cannot handle age-different relationships, especially when the younger is someone attractive. For example Ashton Kutchner and Demi Moore. Or Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes. Public Opinion and The Press roasted them alive and there were no adopted 19 year olds in the picture. It was just the simple fact that nobody wants to see the shit. And when they all broke up, the press took the heat off and started aggrandizing Holmes and Kutchner, again, like nothing happened.

Yes, gold diggers and sugar daddy's do exist, but that's very transient and neither party would dare present themselves as being "in love." And people can tolerate something like that, depending. But it's not the Social Norm. It's rare indeed to see a romantic couple with one party being 20 and the other 40, or more. Young women don't want old men and parents don't want their daughters getting with old men.

While this does not, directly, have a baring on the facts of the case, it has everything to do with Benefit of the Doubt when Woody Allen trots out Soon Yi so unapologetically, expecting Social Norms to conform to his wants. He was always a creepy looking bastard to begin with, which was not a plus for him in this case. But at least if he'd gotten with - oh, who the hell cares? Make it his pal Diane Keaton - he might've had public opinion on his side (until something more incriminating came to light, at least.)

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Take out the accusations of child molesting and him having any sexual relationship with Soon-yi is still incredibly inappropriate.

But does it logically follow that these accusations of child molestation are any more likely to be true because of this? I don't think so. If the relationship with Soon-Yi was inappropriate, it was inappropriate for entirely different reasons than the alleged abuse of Dylan, because Soon-Yi was an adult and her relationship to Allen was never a familial one.

There is a boundary there even if she was adopted and even if he was never married to her mother. She is still his children's half sister.

Let's imagine for a moment that, instead of Soon-Yi, he'd had a relationship with one of Mia Farrow's sisters. She would be his children's aunt. Would that also represent an obvious violation of sexual boundaries, in your mind? Would it affect the likelihood of child molestation accusations being true?

 

[gblews]

There is a boundary there even if she was adopted and even if he was never married to her mother. She is still his children's half sister.

In the statement above, who is "she"? Soon-Yi? And which individuals are you referring to when you say, "his children"? I want to make sure I understand what you are saying here.

 

[wissaboo]

There is a boundary there even if she was adopted and even if he was never married to her mother. She is still his children's half sister.

In the statement above, who is "she"? Soon-Yi? And which individuals are you referring to when you say, "his children"? I want to make sure I understand what you are saying here.

Soon-Yi is half sister to the three children Woody had with Mia Farrow.

 

[wissaboo]

Take out the accusations of child molesting and him having any sexual relationship with Soon-yi is still incredibly inappropriate.

But does it logically follow that these accusations of child molestation are any more likely to be true because of this? I don't think so. If the relationship with Soon-Yi was inappropriate, it was inappropriate for entirely different reasons than the alleged abuse of Dylan, because Soon-Yi was an adult and her relationship to Allen was never a familial one.

There is a boundary there even if she was adopted and even if he was never married to her mother. She is still his children's half sister.

Let's imagine for a moment that, instead of Soon-Yi, he'd had a relationship with one of Mia Farrow's sisters. She would be his children's aunt. Would that also represent an obvious violation of sexual boundaries, in your mind? Would it affect the likelihood of child molestation accusations being true?

It would not be as seriously inappropriate as the daughter of his partner.

I think probably my thinking on this is influenced by the fact that I am a stepmother of a 22 year old boy. It is incomprehensible to me how my being sexually interested in him could be acceptable. Even to myself.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Let's imagine for a moment that, instead of Soon-Yi, he'd had a relationship with one of Mia Farrow's sisters. She would be his children's aunt. Would that also represent an obvious violation of sexual boundaries, in your mind? Would it affect the likelihood of child molestation accusations being true?

It would not be as seriously inappropriate as the daughter of his partner.

Are you saying that you'd expect the family to somehow be less seriously torn apart by a man dumping his long-standing lover to marry her sister?

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

Are you saying that you'd expect the family to somehow be less seriously torn apart by a man dumping his long-standing lover to marry her sister?

The family would be torn be apart, but it would be less of a mind fuck for his children than him marrying their own barely legal sister.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Are you saying that you'd expect the family to somehow be less seriously torn apart by a man dumping his long-standing lover to marry her sister?

The family would be torn be apart, but it would be less of a mind fuck for his children than him marrying their own barely legal sister.

Really? I suppose we've got some actual data to back up that claim?

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

Really? I suppose we've got some actual data to back up that claim?

A common sense appreciation of human nature will do.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Really? I suppose we've got some actual data to back up that claim?

A common sense appreciation of human nature will do.

No, it won't. Common sense tells us that both situations are likely to involve people in need of counseling. Given that, calling one a more serious mind fuck than the other is arbitrary and ludicrous.

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

Common sense tells us that both situations are likely to involve people in need of counseling. Given that, calling one a more serious mind fuck than the other is arbitrary and ludicrous.

Both scenarios would cause great emotional upset, but the fact that someone can't see that it would be more emotionally difficult for children to find out their father is screwing their barely legal sister than to find out he's screwing their aunt (who in most cases would be much older and more distant) is astonishing. To see that as an arbitrary and ludicrous distinction displays a lack of common sense regarding human nature and familial ties. This shouldn't be a distinction you need to see data on. It should be plain as day.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Common sense tells us that both situations are likely to involve people in need of counseling. Given that, calling one a more serious mind fuck than the other is arbitrary and ludicrous.

Both scenarios would cause great emotional upset, but the fact that someone can't see that it would be more emotionally difficult for children to find out their father is screwing their barely legal sister than to find out he's screwing their aunt (who in most cases would be much older and more distant) is astonishing. To see that as an arbitrary and ludicrous distinction displays a lack of common sense regarding human nature and familial ties. This shouldn't be a distinction you need to see data on. It should be plain as day.

So, the rhetoric is thick, but the data is thin. I see. Thanks!

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

Well, if you can't see it you can't see it. There you go.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Well, if you can't see it you can't see it. There you go.

Can't see what? You've offered no data, and this isn't a pissing contest. If I'd said, "Aw shucks, everyone would be fine," you'd have a point that I was missing something. As it is, all I've said is that people are likely to hurt in both scenarios. How much depends upon a lot of specifics. Broken families are never a picnic.

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

Like I said, no data should be necessary. In almost every familial situation the one scenario is going to be more difficult for children to handle than the other. But, yes, both scenarios would be difficult to deal with.

Allen's behaviour in the early 90s with Soon-Yi was extremely selfish, inappropriate, and creepy (and Soon-Yi shares some of the blame in that). Some of his children found it to be a huge mind fuck, something they still struggle with (although one came to terms with it and has good relations with him). They've said as much. Putting aside hypothetical scenarios, those are the specifics here.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Like I said, no data should be necessary. In almost every familial situation the one scenario is going to be more difficult for children to handle than the other.

No, sorry, you don't get to assert a point and deny at the same time that any proof of it other than common sense is necessary. Psychology is not dictated by common sense. My father didn't marry my aunt and my mother didn't marry my adoptive half-brother, so I have no way to know which is the bigger mind-fuck. Both sound like I'd be headed for therapy.

But, yes, both scenarios would be difficult to deal with.

Allen's behaviour in the early 90s with Soon-Yi was extremely selfish, inappropriate, and creepy (and Soon-Yi shares some of the blame in that). Some of his children found it to be a huge mind fuck, something they still struggle with (although one came to terms with it and has good relations with him). They've said as much. Putting aside hypothetical scenarios, those are the specifics here.

But we can agree that the father/aunt thing is a hypothetical scenario that doesn't have a bearing on the actual topic.

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

But we can agree that the father/aunt thing is a hypothetical scenario that doesn't have a bearing on the actual topic.

Indeed, so I'll just say we can agree to disagree on that and not discuss it further. We're obviously not going to see eye to eye on it, and it is off topic.

 

[gblews]

There is a boundary there even if she was adopted and even if he was never married to her mother. She is still his children's half sister.

In the statement above, who is "she"? Soon-Yi? And which individuals are you referring to when you say, "his children"? I want to make sure I understand what you are saying here.

Soon-Yi is half sister to the three children Woody had with Mia Farrow.

That's what I thought. So you're not accepting the fact that Woody never adopted Mia's children and was therefore not their parent. Okay.

I can see those children (including Soon Yi) looking at Woody as a "father figure" at some pont in their lives, and thus the creep factor associated with his relationship and marriage to Soon-Yi, but to attempt to stretch this into statutory incest is a matter of opinion and not fact. Same for attempting to characterize Woody as the children's father when according to what has been reported in this thread, they already had a separate adoptive father.

So Woody, as creepy as he is, is married to "his child" in your mind only.

 

[the G-man]

So as long as something's technically legal you refuse to have an opinion on it IF the person committing the act will never cross your path?

No, you've gotten it wrong—again.

I said "pass judgment" not "have an opinion".

A judgement is an opinion.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

So as long as something's technically legal you refuse to have an opinion on it IF the person committing the act will never cross your path?

No, you've gotten it wrong—again.

I said "pass judgment" not "have an opinion".

A judgement is an opinion.

A judgment is not just an opinion; it's an opinion that is carefully thought out, as if rendered by a judge. Being carefully thought out requires having access to all relevant information and evidence, which is decidedly lacking here.

Furthermore, to "pass judgment" on somebody means to form an opinion that isn't likely to change, as if it is a ruling from a court of law [see transitive verb 8; compare intransitive verb 6][see idiom entry here, paying particular attention to usage notes].

In other words, the act of passing judgment on somebody's actions is much stronger than simply having an opinion about it.

If you're going to try to nitpick my grammar, you are going to have to do much better than that.