Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?
- Thread starter Mr Light
- Start date
With respect to how much value to give "Begins" in the Nemesis advertising: I think in retrospect that it doesn't mean very much, because we've already been told
"The Human Adventure Is Just Beginning" (TMP)
"At the End of the Universe Lies the Beginning of Vengeance" (TWoK)
"The Battle for Paradise Has Begun" (INS)
Those are all from memory; I may have missed others.
"The Human Adventure Is Just Beginning" (TMP)
"At the End of the Universe Lies the Beginning of Vengeance" (TWoK)
"The Battle for Paradise Has Begun" (INS)
Those are all from memory; I may have missed others.
Indeed, that's like saying "this is my second favourite wound".
Nemesis is watchable and I adore Trek so I can enjoy it. It is, however, an abysmal movie. Utterly utterly awful. LIST TIME!
1. A Picard clone? Seriously?
2. B4? When we are told Data and Lore were the two Androids Soong built. Its such a lame plot device and a frankly cowardly way to side-step ACTUALLY killing Data.
3. Remans? Funny how we never heard of them. Oh they are slaves? Well ok but....wait they just slaughtered the senate and managed to build a super-doom-ship-of-death? Did the Tal Shiar have a day off or something!?
4. The Rape. This outright offends me. It is pointless, uncomfortable and just completely out of tone. In the special features the director mentions how he wanted to do a second rape scene in the turbo-lift. He can go fuck himself. Its creepy and just not cool. It serves no purpose other than to give Riker SOMETHING to do.
5. Shinzon is a dumbass. Seriously. He is an oppressed slave with a death-boat....so he immediately attacks his masters enemies. He also needs Picard's blood to survive....so he attacks the Enterprise with huge force. He also wants to destroy the Earth and the Federation....for some unknown reason.
6. The deleted scenes are better than any that were in the actual movie.
The movie is just a poorly written, terribly directed, disjointed mess. It would have been far easier to fix the plot than blunder through with the mess they crapped out.
You are kidding, right?
Being a piss poor film had everything to do with its failure. As an example, in 1982, Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was a major hit (which saved the ST film series), and was released on June 4 of that summer, surrounded by hits Rocky III (May 28), Poltergeist (June 4), & E.T. (June 11), but that did not stop ST2 from being one of the standout films of the year.
The point being, if the film is great, it will perform no matter the competition. Nemesis was self-indulgent crap, the TNG had worn out their welcome, and the few who cared enough to see the film were slapped by a shameless, copy+paste ripoff of TWOK. There's no mystery about the failure of Nemesis.
Cause it sucked??
Nemises was great Star Trek. I also wonder why it was so unpopular. I though Insurrention was much weaker, more, like an average episode (although I'l take more of those!).
Indeed, that's like saying "this is my second favourite wound".
Nemesis is watchable and I adore Trek so I can enjoy it. It is, however, an abysmal movie. Utterly utterly awful. LIST TIME!
1. A Picard clone? Seriously?
It's Picard facing himself. Facing the darkness in himself and that he is capable, as we all are, of doing terrible things in the right circumstances. Not exactly meaningless having a clone, but a trope to use an evil twin to confront yourself.
Point taken. The way they treat B-4, like this has never happened before, no Lore, was stupid. How about a scene or line with Data wishing for a non-evil brother? A setup for his disappointment that he is once-again alone in the universe?
Remus is mentioned in "Balance of Terror." It also refers to Roman Mythology. But about Shinzon's age. What is he, 23? Picard has been in-charge of the Flagship for 15 years. Why would they take his DNA while he was on the Stargazer?
I lost all sympathy for Picard's evil twin. I think the biggest problem with Shinzon as a character, is that we are not told that he is conflicted. It's in Tom Hardy's performance, but we don't spend some time with him without someone else in the room. He is guarded when someone else is around. Why not show us behind the curtain?
He is lying throughout this movie and that's a bad thing to do when you need 45 minute action scenes and no time to show you he is lying. It's not about "What am I while you exist?!?" It's "I need your blood to make sure I am alive." And go back and watch the scenes with the Romulans again. "Praetor's power has always been the Romulan fleet." He is pressured by the Romulans to attack Earth. He is pressured by the Viceroy to stop indulging his humanity. He is weak and a lost child, looking for fulfillment, power, and he is angry.
I don't think "New Worlds" belongs in the movie.
I think it's not as bad as some.
<<Remus is mentioned in "Balance of Terror." It also refers to Roman Mythology. But about Shinzon's age. What is he, 23? Picard has been in-charge of the Flagship for 15 years. Why would they take his DNA while he was on the Stargazer?>>
They show it in one of the novels. Romulan infiltrators in the Federation hit up a Starfleet party and took DNA from a bunch of up an coming officers.
They show it in one of the novels. Romulan infiltrators in the Federation hit up a Starfleet party and took DNA from a bunch of up an coming officers.
Indeed, that's like saying "this is my second favourite wound".
Nemesis is watchable and I adore Trek so I can enjoy it. It is, however, an abysmal movie. Utterly utterly awful. LIST TIME!
1. A Picard clone? Seriously?
It's Picard facing himself. Facing the darkness in himself and that he is capable, as we all are, of doing terrible things in the right circumstances. Not exactly meaningless having a clone, but a trope to use an evil twin to confront yourself.
I fully see the analogy they are going for. But on film its just 'an evil clone'. Its forced and entirely cliche.
Point taken. The way they treat B-4, like this has never happened before, no Lore, was stupid. How about a scene or line with Data wishing for a non-evil brother? A setup for his disappointment that he is once-again alone in the universe?
I dont think there is any saving such a hollow attempt at saving Data. Kill him or dont. Do not half-ass it because you dont have the confidence to pull the trigger.
Remus is mentioned in "Balance of Terror." It also refers to Roman Mythology. But about Shinzon's age. What is he, 23? Picard has been in-charge of the Flagship for 15 years. Why would they take his DNA while he was on the Stargazer?
I know Remus is mentioned. Twin worlds etc. There is no mention of slave Remans. The Dominion war comes and goes...still no slave Remans.
I lost all sympathy for Picard's evil twin. I think the biggest problem with Shinzon as a character, is that we are not told that he is conflicted. It's in Tom Hardy's performance, but we don't spend some time with him without someone else in the room. He is guarded when someone else is around. Why not show us behind the curtain?
He is an entirely two dimensional villain. Khan was awesome due to his history with Kirk, his plain motivations and his ego. Shinzon is just a cardboard cut-out. He seems to not really have any singular motivation.
He is lying throughout this movie and that's a bad thing to do when you need 45 minute action scenes and no time to show you he is lying. It's not about "What am I while you exist?!?" It's "I need your blood to make sure I am alive." And go back and watch the scenes with the Romulans again. "Praetor's power has always been the Romulan fleet." He is pressured by the Romulans to attack Earth. He is pressured by the Viceroy to stop indulging his humanity. He is weak and a lost child, looking for fulfillment, power, and he is angry.
I remember those scenes...and I still think he is a stupid mess of a character. A slave slaughtering the most powerful slave holders, then attempting to murder an innocent that it needs to live is baffling. Somehow building the Scimitar and the Romulans not noticing is laughable.
I don't think "New Worlds" belongs in the movie.
The scene between Data and Picard is wonderful.
I think it's not as bad as some.
To me, its the worst in the franchise. TFF is far better than it. Hell, it makes Insurrection look solid.
Dont get me wrong. I like it because I love Trek. The action is good and...hey...its the TNG cast I love....but its an awful movie. Sentiment cant deny that.
The Romulan military didn't pressure Shinzon to destroy Earth...they turned against him when they discovered that he wanted to destroy rather than conquer it. Destroying Earth was Shinzon's idea.
In no particular order:
- The Argo sequence reeked of giving Patrick Stewart another action scene than making any logical sense; it would have made more sense with Fountain of Youthed Picard from Insurrection.
- Use of B4 to backup Data - a reset button right there.
- No use of existing Romulan characters
- Sending Worf back into Starfleet service nullifies some of his character development. Ambassador was a good position for him.
- No clear motivation for Shinzon to destroy Earth. At a stretch, he had a horrid childhood and is self-destructive. But would that really lead him to want to destroy Earth and Picard?
- At the last movie, not much done to say goodbye to Guinan and Wesley.
I just cannot put my finger on it - despite the films many flaws there's just something about it - the feel, the cinematography maybe that I love, every time I watch it I just flat out enjoy it more than any other TNG movie and several of the TOS ones too. TFF doesn't even get close
...well, there is that reason, too.
EDIT: Sorry, I posted before I read the whole thing.
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There's no particular reason from canon to ever assume that Remus was anything other than the Romulans' second homeworld (like the difference between Earth and Mars).
Still, even if 'oppressed slaves' HAD to enter into it based on their interpretation of the myth, the original story of Romulus and Remus is about two *brothers*. They could have at least tried to do something interesting with Remans being some actual underclass of Romulans, rather than making them cookie cutter alien Buffy the Vampire Slayer knockoffs.
I think he has a motivation, but it's nothing stated in the movie or as easy to access as Khan. The genius of Khan is while he has very clear-cut motives, he fits into the motif of the movie. Genesis, as well as Khan, are creations of our genius that out-paced our morality. Khan works on many levels, is my point.
Shinzon's motivation is to find fulfillment; his place in the universe. He is a very confused, young man. He doesn't know if he wants to destroy Earth, or if he wants to learn more about being human from Picard. Where is his place in the world?
"The Remans have given me a future, but you can tell me about my past. Were we Picards always warriors?"
"I like to think of myself as an explorer."
"Were we always explorers?"
He builds a connection with Picard, here. He sees himself in Picard, and vice versa. This allows him to consider life in peace, being human.
"Do not forget our mission, Shinzon. We must act--now!"
"We will return to the Scimitar. I was merely curious about him."
Reality comes back to him. He feels trapped by his mission, his Viceroy, or pseudo father, beckoning him to return to his warrior ways.
His relationship with Picard leads to this exchange:
"It's about destiny, Picard! It's about a Reman outcast--"
"You're not Reman!"
"And I'm not quite Human! So what am I?!?"
Why would he explain himself otherwise, to his enemy?
Picard recognizes that he can have an effect on the man Shinzon becomes! He realizes that he is looking for fulfillment. And, therefore, Picard says this:
"Oh, yes. I know you. There was a time you looked to the stars and dreamed of what was out there."
"Childish dreams, Captain. Lost in the dilithium mines of Remus! I am what you see, now."
Shinzon is trying to convince himself as much as he's telling Picard. It makes little sense for him to continue talking to him, to let this questioning and lecture go on. But he does it, because he is conflicted.
"I see more than that. I see what you could be. The man who is Jean-Luc Picard and Shinzon of Remus could never exterminate the population of an entire planet. He's better than that."
Conflicted, he says it with more authority now. He knows Picard is right; he's getting to him. But he has to stay with his Reman brothers.
"I can't fight what I am!"
"Yes, you can!"
And here is where he makes his choice. This is where the movie turns and Picard loses all hope that he can win this one over.
"I will always and forever be Shinzon of REMUS! And my voice shall echo throughout time long after yours has faded to a dim memory!!"
When he says "Kill everything on that ship," he is recognizing, just as Khan did, that he is defeated. Picard will never surrender. His boarding party didn't bring him Picard. And Picard is bound and determined to stop him. He must stop the Enterprise to continue on his mission, whether he survives to rule the Romulan Empire or not.
I think it's very clear to anyone who's asked that question of him or her self: What am I? Where do I belong? Where will I find fulfillment? What are these urges within me?
He's not as committed as Khan, for sure. He's a young and troubled man. He doesn't feel at home with Remans or with Humans. That's a terrible place to be. He has gotten what he wants--freedom. Now, what does he do with it? All that talent for warfare and the ability to move an audience of Remans to revolt and he cannot deal with his personal demons.
You know I want to feel it but I just don't.
I just can't force myself to care about Shinzon. I'm trying to pinpoint it. He just doesn't have the charisma or something. I also didn't even get how he rose to power, how he managed to get followers and why that hot Romulan woman even fancied him a bit.
To me he comes off like one of the many criminals in jail today in the US from a bad background. He likes to think he's a freedom fighter for the Remans but all he wants to do with that power in mind-rape innocent Troi and assert his power by destroying an innocent planet.
You know for all their flaws Nero, Khan, Rufao, the Borg queen believed in their causes. Shinzon has all the morality and strength of Lore. It would have been an easy tweak for the writers to make me have a bit of empathy for Shinzon but all they wanted to do was make Picard look good IMO.
Nemesis is a limp, turgid, visually murky and tonally bleak film--a bleakness the plot never really earns and that hangs like a funereal pall over the film's lightest moments. The plot is a mess and Shinzon never emerges as a memorable villain, even though he is played by a very charismatic actor. It simply isn't very good.
And still, it is the second best of the TNG films.
Insurrection and Generations were both worse--and all three of them squander great talents in villain roles that were under-written, poorly written, or both.
And still, it is the second best of the TNG films.
Insurrection and Generations were both worse--and all three of them squander great talents in villain roles that were under-written, poorly written, or both.
To be fair, the original nitpick was that he didn't have a "clear motivation." I wasn't trying to get you to like him. I figured using the word "conflicted" would make that clear, apparently.
He hasn't been around anyone to guide him. He is like a criminal in prison, but not a hardened criminal. He is a man of circumstance, a patsy, a man looking for brotherhood in joining a gang. Given positive influences and supports to help guide him, he could be rehabilitated. He doesn't totally believe in what he is doing. He is not raging, he is angry. He is not sure what he should do as a leader. He is manipulated; easily swayed.
He has talent--he is a charismatic leader, he is a strong man to dream of a better day in the middle of all of that, and he is a capable commander in battle. He has done what no one else could: free the Remans. As Stuart Baird said: "He's more successful than Picard." He is. But it's not enough to give him a place in the universe, a home.
This proves, in this movie, that not only do circumstances (people in your life, life experiences, how soon you deal with trauma) make the man or woman (interacts with genes, personality, etc.), but that no matter what a person has in terms of power, affluence, wealth, charisma, if you are never given peace of mind, you will be miserable.
