Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

[Amaris]

In my headcanon, Spock is rather sexually "flexible."

 

[T'Girl]

In my headcanon, Spock is rather sexually "flexible."

Owing no doubt to his bifurcated penis.

I didn't say that.

Fixed it, my mistake.

 

[Greg Cox]

However if they were going to make one of the characters gay, it should've been NuSpock in order to actually give the decision a little more impact (plus added bonus of doing away with the awful NuSpock/NuUhura "romance").

Perhaps, but then you're running into the "casting a gay actor means the character has to be gay" thing again. Even if that isn't the intention . . . .

 

[JarodRussell]

However if they were going to make one of the characters gay, it should've been NuSpock in order to actually give the decision a little more impact (plus added bonus of doing away with the awful NuSpock/NuUhura "romance").

Perhaps, but then you're running into the "casting a gay actor means the character has to be gay" thing again. Even if that isn't the intention . . . .

Imagine How I Met Your Mother with a gay Barney Stinson, since NPH is gay. Riots would start. Probably from gay groups because they didn't like the depiction as a man-slut.

Jim Parsons is gay as well. His complicated relationship with Adam Farrah Fowler would have been interesting to see.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Okay, two objectionable things right there.

A. You're missing the word SOME. "almost the same way SOME people who have newly discovered that they are gay 'flame'". Don't generalize.

B. "Normalize"? Define normal. I've known guys who "flamed" since they were kids and haven't changed 40 years later. That's "normal" for some people.

Fair enough, on both counts, but neither were because you've nailed me and I'm some sort of closet homophobe . Rather, they owe to my being less than precise. Yes, "some", although by "flame" I didn't necessarily mean RuPaul levels of fabulous, just general excitement about realizing a truth and all that comes with that truth - so I'd still say it is safe to say that most LGBTQ people go through that to some degree or another. And as to "normal", I mean, normal for them, as in, how they act when they aren't in the middle of the joy/crisis that comes immediately after the realization and self-acceptance. If that is *also* what you would call "flaming", then that's fine, but it isn't quite what I meant.

I appreciate your vigilance on behalf of the community, but I'M about the last person you need to worry about in that regard.

Now listen to this: http://theantidote.net/sitebuilder/flash/player?f=/music/flash/playlist.xml?t=3

 

[T'Girl]

Perhaps, but then you're running into the "casting a gay actor means the character has to be gay" thing again. Even if that isn't the intention . . . .

At the time he was first cast for the role, Zac Quinto hadn't yet "come out" had he?

 

[JarodRussell]

Perhaps, but then you're running into the "casting a gay actor means the character has to be gay" thing again. Even if that isn't the intention . . . .

At the time he was first cast for the role, Zac Quinto hadn't yet "come out" had he?

But everyone had already known it, if you were to believe all the comments made after he came out. Statements like these are kinda funny anyways. "Dude, I've always known you were gay!"

 

[USS Triumphant]

Jim Parsons is gay as well. His complicated relationship with Adam Farrah Fowler would have been interesting to see.

I'm still not certain that Sheldon isn't gay. But his level of sexual self-expression is so low that I'm not sure it would turn out to matter much either way.

 

[Amaris]

In my headcanon, Spock is rather sexually "flexible."

Owing no doubt to his bifurcated penis.

I had forgotten about that detail.

 

[T'Girl]

But everyone had already known it

Well of course I did. The gay blogs were all over his dating life, and he didn't really go out of his way to conceal anything.

Still, he wasn't "officially" out until after being cast for Star Trek (unless I'm miss-remembering the dates).

 

[jmampilly]

I would just like to point out that I am impressed with this thread. When I first saw it, I feared it would quickly be closed after some offensive comment would lead to a large scale argument, which was the case in an older thread about Christmas in the Federation.

This is a great question to ask in a thread, and I apologize for my late entry...

The Federation seems to be portrayed as a sort of liberal paradise. Since the global trend seems to be a general migration of social views leftwards, I would think that homosexual equality would not be far-fetched in the Federation. Since the liberal view is generally pro-LGBT, then it is fair to assume that the hyper-liberal Federation would have laws in place to ensure LGBT equality.

 

[Maurice]

On the other hand, one could have used the same argument against, say, including a black character on TOS.

"I don't know. What if this 'Uhura' character turns out to be an embarrassingly racial stereotype? Do we trust a bunch of white screenwriters in 1966 to write a black woman as just another character? This could be very badly-done, so maybe we should think twice about doing it at all . . . . "

Yep!

Fair enough, on both counts, but neither were because you've nailed me and I'm some sort of closet homophobe . Rather, they owe to my being less than precise. Yes, "some", although by "flame" I didn't necessarily mean RuPaul levels of fabulous, just general excitement about realizing a truth and all that comes with that truth - so I'd still say it is safe to say that most LGBTQ people go through that to some degree or another. And as to "normal", I mean, normal for them, as in, how they act when they aren't in the middle of the joy/crisis that comes immediately after the realization and self-acceptance. If that is *also* what you would call "flaming", then that's fine, but it isn't quite what I meant.

I appreciate your vigilance on behalf of the community, but I'M about the last person you need to worry about in that regard.

Now listen to this: http://theantidote.net/sitebuilder/flash/player?f=/music/flash/playlist.xml?t=3

I'm not worried about you, I'm concerned when I see broad generalizations is all. I still disagree about "most", since I know lots of gays who kicked down the closet door but didn't flame on, and your comment seems to only be talking about gay men and not gay women, who aren't prone to flaming.

 

[Amaris]

But everyone had already known it

Well of course I did. The gay blogs were all over his dating life, and he didn't really go out of his way to conceal anything.

Still, he wasn't "officially" out until after being cast for Star Trek (unless I'm miss-remembering the dates).

I'm starting to think I was the only one who didn't know. Then again, I don't really dig into actors personal lives (unless they offer that information willingly, of course).

I was surprised. Happy, but surprised.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

However if they were going to make one of the characters gay, it should've been NuSpock in order to actually give the decision a little more impact (plus added bonus of doing away with the awful NuSpock/NuUhura "romance").

Perhaps, but then you're running into the "casting a gay actor means the character has to be gay" thing again. Even if that isn't the intention . . . .

Not really what I was meaning. Spock always struck me as not entirely straight, he gave up on his arranged marriage to T'Pring (who was very attractive), then the only time he does have sex is when he's essentially a mindless savage and needed any partner in order to live, afterwards he didn't show any connection Saavik at all. His most meaningful and long-term relationship was with Kirk.

NuTrek would've been far more interesting if the tension between Kirk and Spock in the first film was sexual, they had more chemistry than him and NuUhura

 

[CTGuyton]

I would just like to point out that I am impressed with this thread. When I first saw it, I feared it would quickly be closed after some offensive comment would lead to a large scale argument, which was the case in an older thread about Christmas in the Federation.

I agree. I think we've touched on quite a few topics and aside from one comment, no one has crossed the line while everyone has been able to give their thoughts and views and related them to the ST universe.

The Federation seems to be portrayed as a sort of liberal paradise. Since the global trend seems to be a general migration of social views leftwards, I would think that homosexual equality would not be far-fetched in the Federation. Since the liberal view is generally pro-LGBT, then it is fair to assume that the hyper-liberal Federation would have laws in place to ensure LGBT equality.

You should read some of the thread on conservative in the star trek fan base. While I agree that the absence of currency is a major socialist victory, I disagree that the federation is Hyper-libral. Infact, considering the UFP acts more like the UN to the member nations giving them much more autonomy(states rights), I would say it's rather conservative. But I don't want to derail this thread. You may want to join the discussion in that thread though.

 

[YARN]

Not really what I was meaning. Spock always struck me as not entirely straight, he gave up on his arranged marriage to T'Pring (who was very attractive), then the only time he does have sex is when he's essentially a mindless savage and needed any partner in order to live, afterwards he didn't show any connection Saavik at all. His most meaningful and long-term relationship was with Kirk.

NuTrek would've been far more interesting if the tension between Kirk and Spock in the first film was sexual, they had more chemistry than him and NuUhura

In Paradise Syndrome, the first time in Spock's life that he was ever happy (by his own report), he is able to love. He lets in an old love-interest and enjoys it.

He gave up on T'Pring for obvious reasons (she wasn't into him, she manipulated him into almost killing Kirk). The hook-up with Saavik was basically just his flesh hitting puberty. It wasn't really Spock looking for a hook up.

Spock also has a certain asexuality linked to his cerebral nature. He is, by conscious choice, not a sensualist.

Finally, I think it is important not to confuse homosociality with homosexuality. You can have, for example, two brothers be very close and spend time together and love on another without it being incestuous.

 

[DS9Continuing]

I would assume that all members of the Federation are required to treat all citizens of their societies equally in order to be members. Yes, each member would have the right to govern their own citizens how they see fit according to their own culture but surely there are certain baseline requirements, just like there are in the EU (in theory), and everyone has to comply to be accepted as a member. We were told quite clearly that Bajor's caste-like d'jarra system would disqualify it for membership, so I see no reason why discrimination against a proportion of their own populace on other grounds would not do likewise.

So no, I don't think there are different ways of dealing with 'homosexuals' (by which of course you actually mean LGBTI individuals) within the Federation. Everyone is equal - that's the whole point. There will have been different histories of how such individuals were recognized or otherwise, and different levels of struggle gone through to reach equality, but now they would all be equal, or else they wouldn't be a member.

As others have said, the Lit has done a magnificent job making up for the woeful lack of LGBTI characters in TV Trek. Characters of all species, sexes, genders, relationship statuses, ranks, cultures and politics have been established as LGBTI and a wide range of other 'orientations' besides. We've seen gay and lesbian Klingon warriors. The current Romulan praetor is a lesbian mother. Cardassian gay couples may possibly have been taboo pre-war but in the new democratic culture they are becoming more open. Humans, Trills, Vulcans, Betazoids... and don't even start with Andorians and Damiani.

Here's a long thread all about it in the TrekLit forum: http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=87663

And by the way, not a one of these characters was ever seen in a 'sex scene'.

Their World War II was longer and bloodier, but they also got more great music from bands like Erasure and the Pet Shop Boys that were never heard about in the Prime Universe.

Let's be friends!

...things that aren't worth acknowledging.

I know it's a lot to ask of people, but if anyone is interested in a very thoughtful perspective, check out the video I linked below. Regardless of how you feel about drag, what Rory O'Neill says here is worth hearing. O'Neill, who performs as drag queen Panti Bliss, caused controversy last month when he name-checked prominent Irish homophobes in an interview, and his response to the controversy here is notable for a few reasons, including pointing out the "spectacular and neat Orwellian trick" of turning the word "homophobia" into something gay people use oppress homophobes. I think this does a fair job of explaining what it's like to be a gay person and how little actions make people feel oppressed. And I think people who are members of other minimized or marginalized groups must feel similarly.

I love that video - I've already Facebooked it days ago. Really quite emotional and powerful.


.

 

[USS Triumphant]

... and your comment seems to only be talking about gay men and not gay women, who aren't prone to flaming.

You've not known some of my lesbian friends, obviously! But then, again, I don't think we're using the same definition of flaming. What I'm talking about is the period right after a person comes out of the closet when they discover and begin displaying the rainbow, the pink triangle, etc. When they start listening to a lot more gay music like the aforementioned Erasure and Pet Shop Boys and also Etheridge and Mercury and so on, and watching a lot of gay movies like "Priscilla, Queen of the Desert", "Boys Don't Cry", "To Wong Foo", and such. They suddenly want to go to a gay/lesbian bar when they may not be the sort of person that even likes bars at all, and they want to go to a pride rally even though they're an introvert that hates crowds. And for a little while, they frequently make the mistake of thinking that ALL LGBTQ people must be NICE because "they've been through what I've been through", before they painfully learn that, no, being an a*hole is equal opportunity.

Before very long (varies, of course, on how long), they settle back down into being themselves again, just with their homosexuality integrated in - watching a movie with straight characters no longer automatically provokes a conversation about "I think character A was actually gay", and the aforementioned introvert is now okay being gay in the same comfortable places where they were trying to play straight before - nothing to prove to his- or herself anymore that requires getting out in crowds.

I think you think by "flaming" I'm talking about acting like Jack off "Will and Grace". No, this is a subtler thing, but I've seen it a LOT.

 

[BillJ]

In Paradise Syndrome, the first time in Spock's life that he was ever happy (by his own report), he is able to love. He lets in an old love-interest and enjoys it.

"This Side of Paradise"

 

[Greg Cox]

In Paradise Syndrome, the first time in Spock's life that he was ever happy (by his own report), he is able to love. He lets in an old love-interest and enjoys it.

"This Side of Paradise"

Yep, "The Paradise Syndrome" is the one where Kirk marries Miramanee.

Easy mistake to make, though. Kind of like mixing up "Tomorrow is Yesterday," "Return to Tomorrow," and "All Our Yesterdays."