If Trek was cast with nothing but white Males, it would be quite Gay indeed. Just think of all the babes Kirk and Riker scored with. Though, maybe we shouldn't limit it to just White
Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe
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There seem to be two different discussions going on.
The first is how an alien culture would address homosexuality. Perhaps they openly accept it and it is considered normal, perhaps it is tolerated as an individual right yet seen as outside the norm, perhaps it never evolved with that particular species, maybe they even found the genes for it and eliminated it. Then again, for the energy based, gas based, thought based, and silicone based entities, it would not matter, due to lack of gender in the first place.
The second discussion seems to be how a TV show should portray the topic. Do they treat it as gross and weird, normal and accepted, or just ignore it because they want to play it safe and not make a political statement. The Star Wars reference above does not make sense to me because we have only ever seen three relationships in the whole thing, Owen and Beru, Padme and Anakin, and Han and Leia...and only tow of those were plot relevant. Star Wars is not exactly going for a deep examination of the human condition. As far as Trek goes...they took cultural risks in the 60's, and more than a few in DS9, and a smattering of others over the remaining series. Let's just hope we get another well written, well thought out series so that we can debate how they are handling social issues of today.
The first is how an alien culture would address homosexuality. Perhaps they openly accept it and it is considered normal, perhaps it is tolerated as an individual right yet seen as outside the norm, perhaps it never evolved with that particular species, maybe they even found the genes for it and eliminated it. Then again, for the energy based, gas based, thought based, and silicone based entities, it would not matter, due to lack of gender in the first place.
The second discussion seems to be how a TV show should portray the topic. Do they treat it as gross and weird, normal and accepted, or just ignore it because they want to play it safe and not make a political statement. The Star Wars reference above does not make sense to me because we have only ever seen three relationships in the whole thing, Owen and Beru, Padme and Anakin, and Han and Leia...and only tow of those were plot relevant. Star Wars is not exactly going for a deep examination of the human condition. As far as Trek goes...they took cultural risks in the 60's, and more than a few in DS9, and a smattering of others over the remaining series. Let's just hope we get another well written, well thought out series so that we can debate how they are handling social issues of today.
I think that not having characters representative of the actual range of people in our society (an excellent way of putting it, by the way) is what's actually indicative of agenda.
If there's an elephant in the room, it's homophobia.
Agreed with both Maurice and Greg Cox here. The only thing I care about in regards to new Star Trek is that the characters are well-written and fun to watch.
I choose to see the added homosexuality in the Mirror Universe as their consolation prize for how crappy their universe is to live in otherwise. Their World War II was longer and bloodier, but they also got more great music from bands like Erasure and the Pet Shop Boys that were never heard about in the Prime Universe.
Moderation in all things, my friend: including in moderation.
Tolerant of the different doesn't have to mean tolerant of evil.
Personally not looking for "force feed," just want a main character who is known to the audience to be gay. That's the basic bare minimum. Just as we hear about and see the straight characters having (and talking about) their romances, affairs and marriages, it will be the exact same with the gay character(s).
Not force feed, just the same level of presentation. No more, no less.
My personal preference would be a Human male, late twenties, a lieutenant in a responsible position where we saw him in most every episode, someone who would be assigned to away team/landing parties.
Basically the equal of Worf or LaForge or Paris.
If he was a parent, I would prefer more like Sisko, less like Worf.
In terms of romance, he could play the field like Riker, or have something like Worf and Jadzia (I liked their romance).
While he is gay, we won't be seeing anything like this ...
ILIA: "My oath of gayness is on record Captain. May I assume my duties?"
The Companion was a energy gas being, and she had a gender.
The Horta was a (iirc) silicone based being, she too had a gender.
I think we'd see all of that (and other options) inside the Federation, and in the surrounding societies too.
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^It's been my observation that for the people who complain about a "gay agenda" the mere MENTION of a character's homosexuality qualifies as "force feeding". Jay Leno can go on TV and talk about going to a movie with his wife and no one screams about how he's "forcing his heterosexuality down our throats", but if Ellen DeGeneres goes on TV and tells an identical story about going to a movie with HER wife...well, you know.
I'm conservative and tolerant (certainly about gayness), oh and I'm incredible gay. Conservative and intolerant are not automatically synonymous, there are plenty of intolerant liberals out there.
Hopefully by accepting that there are a wide range of viewpoints in any society, never using the existence of intolerance to stifle opposing points of view within society.
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The only reason you think there is no sex in Star Trek is because you're (I assume) straight and you're so used to heterosexuality's ubiquity that you don't even notice it. I can assure you there IS a lot of sex and sexuality in Star Trek, since about every other episode is (at least partially) about someone falling in love / pursuing / marrying / having children with / etc. with someone else!
I don't see how having a gay character would automatically add more sex. You don't need to show two people have sex to establish their sexual orientation. I never saw Cptn Sisko have sex with anyone, yet I don't think you can debate that he was very, very openly straight...
Unfortunately there are gays who will point to people (like Jay and Mavis Leno), derisively refer to them as "breeders" and laugh at their expense.
There are others who want to remove from children's books terms like "husband and wife" or "father and mother" because they don't want children being exposed to these terms.
There is mean-sprirtness and agendas (and mean-sprirted agendas) in our society, ahh diversity.
You misquoted me. I didn't say that.
But if they want to add sex scenes to Star Trek, they can do that easily enough with straight characters. (NuKirk and NuDrusilla maybe?) So why single out gay characters as the first step toward R-rated Star Trek?
Unless you're suggesting that all Star Trek characters, straight or gay, be neutered because otherwise you're opening the door to the possibility of bedroom scenes . . . .
I'm reminded of when DC "outed" Batwoman as a lesbian. Suddenly there were all these concerned comic-book fans wondering why we had to know about her love life anyway. Couldn't she just fight crime and stuff? Who she was dating was totally irrelevant, they insisted, and didn't belong in a proper superhero comic at all.
Never mind Lois Lane and Mary Jane Watson and Steve Trevor and Selina Kyle and Reed & Sue and the fact that superhero comics have featured love interests and romantic subplots since Day One. Giving Batwoman a girlfriend was "unnecessary" and "gratuitous" and promoting an "agenda."
Sigh.
That might not be the safest assumption - I don't identify as straight, gay, bi, or pan, because I don't like labels like that, and I'm a long-time member of PFLAG. The strong majority of my interest is in women, but I have been known to joke that "it ain't 'same-sexual' if they're a different race, or an Elf", because I would kick neither Shemar Moore nor Orlando Bloom out of bed.
I definitely notice when PDA goes beyond the pale, whether it is straight or gay or whatever. Trek has always been pretty tame in that regard - except maybe with some of the rape-y mess with Troi, but that wasn't usually straight, either, so much as pan (I guess, since it was usually some non-humanoid alien or psychic contact involved).
Now this is an extremely valid point, and the only answer I can offer is a fear that straight screenwriters that also assume that their audience is stupid might go inappropriately over the top with writing for a gay relationship in a way they wouldn't with the straightness that they are personally used to - almost the same way people who have newly discovered that they are gay "flame" for a little while, before they calm back down and normalize again. It CAN be done correctly, but if done wrong, it could cheapen the whole thing into nothing better than smut, and get insulting to LGBTQ people in the process.
Exactly.
It's a funny thing. People hear "gay characters" and their brains instantly go to "gay sex." But, as you point out, Trek has managed to have unabashedly straight characters for years without showing them having sex all the time.
Trek is in sore need of a gay character, of whatever species--seeing how diverse humans are then same-sex relations among alien races would be expected.
Having a gay character on screen isn't going to turn Trek into soft core porn, we've had hundreds of straight relationships and never gone much further than a good snog, so why would it be any different for two men or two women? Showing a gay character undergoing the same relationship highs and lows, maybe even finding Mr/Mrs Right and settling down would only be a good thing. We're not needing to see another Kirk-esque manwhore jumping from bed to bed at the drop of...um...a hat
I find Trekkies who have issues with the idea of a gay character in the next series/film to be something of an aberration, as the whole concept of Trek is about acceptance, understanding and inclusion of all, regardless of what makes us different--those differences are to be embraced and celebrated.
Having a gay character on screen isn't going to turn Trek into soft core porn, we've had hundreds of straight relationships and never gone much further than a good snog, so why would it be any different for two men or two women? Showing a gay character undergoing the same relationship highs and lows, maybe even finding Mr/Mrs Right and settling down would only be a good thing. We're not needing to see another Kirk-esque manwhore jumping from bed to bed at the drop of...um...a hat
I find Trekkies who have issues with the idea of a gay character in the next series/film to be something of an aberration, as the whole concept of Trek is about acceptance, understanding and inclusion of all, regardless of what makes us different--those differences are to be embraced and celebrated.
Just for myself, I have absolutely no problem with a gay character - would love to see it, in fact. I have a problem with a badly-done gay character, and I worry that with the writing we've seen on VOY, ENT, NuTrek, and even TNG at times, that that distinction is like the difference between being afraid of heights and being afraid of the sudden stop at the bottom.
That said, I think I'd like it if nuSulu were gay. It could be a nice nod to the years that George Takei could not openly be so.
Okay, two objectionable things right there.
A. You're missing the word SOME. "almost the same way SOME people who have newly discovered that they are gay 'flame'". Don't generalize.
B. "Normalize"? Define normal. I've known guys who "flamed" since they were kids and haven't changed 40 years later. That's "normal" for some people.
I know it's a lot to ask of people, but if anyone is interested in a very thoughtful perspective, check out the video I linked below. Regardless of how you feel about drag, what Rory O'Neill says here is worth hearing. O'Neill, who performs as drag queen Panti Bliss, caused controversy last month when he name-checked prominent Irish homophobes in an interview, and his response to the controversy here is notable for a few reasons, including pointing out the "spectacular and neat Orwellian trick" of turning the word "homophobia" into something gay people use oppress homophobes. I think this does a fair job of explaining what it's like to be a gay person and how little actions make people feel oppressed. And I think people who are members of other minimized or marginalized groups must feel similarly.
[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXayhUzWnl0[/yt]
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Just for myself, I have absolutely no problem with a gay character - would love to see it, in fact. I have a problem with a badly-done gay character, and I worry that with the writing we've seen on VOY, ENT, NuTrek, and even TNG at times, that that distinction is like the difference between being afraid of heights and being afraid of the sudden stop at the bottom.
On the other hand, one could have used the same argument against, say, including a black character on TOS.
"I don't know. What if this 'Uhura' character turns out to be an embarrassingly racial stereotype? Do we trust a bunch of white screenwriters in 1966 to write a black woman as just another character? This could be very badly-done, so maybe we should think twice about doing it at all . . . . "
(Plus, of course, any new TREK tv series would likely have a whole new creative team, so worrying about the writing on the old shows is irrelevant at this point.)
Meanwhile, I have mixed feelings about making Sulu gay. On the one hand, it would be a nice tribute to Takei, and it's not as though Sulu ever had a girlfriend on the original show.
(And before someone brings it up, the fact that Sulu has a daughter hardly means he's straight. Lots of gay people have kids.)
On the other hand, there's enough people who think that gay actors can't play straight (and vise versa) that one doesn't want to blur the distinction between the actor and the character . . . .
Just for myself, I have absolutely no problem with a gay character - would love to see it, in fact. I have a problem with a badly-done gay character, and I worry that with the writing we've seen on VOY, ENT, NuTrek, and even TNG at times, that that distinction is like the difference between being afraid of heights and being afraid of the sudden stop at the bottom.
On the other hand, one could have used the same argument against, say, including a black character on TOS.
"I don't know. What if this 'Uhura" character turns out to be an embarrassingly racial stereotype? Do we trust a bunch of white screenwriters in 1966 to write a black woman as just another character? This could be very badly-done, so maybe we should think twice about doing it at all . . . . "
I actually share the concern about representing homosexuality right. Obviously, some writers will go so far to the other extreme as to make the minority character be overly displined and stolid, almost as an apologia for going against the perceived sensibilities of the audience. On the other hand, I find that the record for gay couples in media, particularly in science fiction, is quite poor. Writers and producers tend to give us male fantasies instead of real representations of homosexual relationships, and that pat themselves on the back for doing so. If Trek were to do it right, it would need to be one of the older characters, and hopefully one that has no aversion to long-term relationships.
That would be the worst thing they could do. A stereotypical "gay" character who has no real depth or presence (as was the problem with several VOY and ENT characters, whilst NuTrek is all about the shiny special effects).Just for myself, I have absolutely no problem with a gay character - would love to see it, in fact. I have a problem with a badly-done gay character, and I worry that with the writing we've seen on VOY, ENT, NuTrek, and even TNG at times, that that distinction is like the difference between being afraid of heights and being afraid of the sudden stop at the bottom.
I think NuChekov would be a better candidate, seeing as he isn't actually Pavel (his birthdates don't match up so he isn't the same person from the Prime Universe).
However if they were going to make one of the characters gay, it should've been NuSpock in order to actually give the decision a little more impact (plus added bonus of doing away with the awful NuSpock/NuUhura "romance").
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