Starfleet Starship Insignia was all supposed to be the same?

[J.T.B.]

I suspect that that secretary or whatever with the arrowhead in "The Menagerie" was just a costuming blunder that fell through the cracks, and even if someone along the line caught it, it wasn't considered important enough to fix and/or they decided no viewer would notice or care.

No doubt. But in-universe... Suppose Starfleet is divided into "fleet" and "base," or "space" and "ground, " or "fleet operations" and "fleet support," or whatever you prefer ("outpost" might be a further category). "Fleet" personnel wear the insignia of their unit (fleet, squadron, command, whatever you prefer), "base" wear the flower badge. But starbases support operating units, so it would be understandable if there was some overlap of "fleet" personnel working at the base, even though they might ultimately report to a different command than the "base" personnel.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I suspect that that secretary or whatever with the arrowhead in "The Menagerie" was just a costuming blunder that fell through the cracks, and even if someone along the line caught it, it wasn't considered important enough to fix and/or they decided no viewer would notice or care.

No doubt. But in-universe... Suppose Starfleet is divided into "fleet" and "base," or "space" and "ground, " or "fleet operations" and "fleet support," or whatever you prefer ("outpost" might be a further category). "Fleet" personnel wear the insignia of their unit (fleet, squadron, command, whatever you prefer), "base" wear the flower badge. But starbases support operating units, so it would be understandable if there was some overlap of "fleet" personnel working at the base, even though they might ultimately report to a different command than the "base" personnel.

Wow, so like a liaison officer? I'm sold.

 

[Maurice]

I see one in the Emergency Manual Monitor, two in the Sickbay ward, and one laying on the examination table chest up with the insignia side turned towards the camera. If they were trying to hide them they'd never have positioned the lattermost in that way.

 

[Robert Comsol]

I don't know what is is you are seeing, but except for the one redshirt strapped onto a sickbay bed, everything else is essentially the reflection of some kind of indiscernible insignia.

Had there really been any intention to clearly reveal the [delta] insignia of the Defiant crew I would have expected to see something like aboard the Exeter in "The Omega Glory".

Bob

 

[Maurice]

The trouble here is that this is all presumption. Minus memos or statements either way there's no way to know for certain. My point is simply Justman handed down the edict that starship crews wear the arrowheads, not other badges, and next time we see a starship crew, lo, they bear the approved insignia and several of them are face up with the badges unobstructed. I'm willing to entertain the idea that maybe they didn't want to draw attention to them, but likewise you should be willing to consider it's perhaps just a coincidence of the way the bodies were positioned. Either is not a "fact".

 

[T'Girl]

The female in the blue uniform (by the small overturned table) not only is face up, but the way the light is catching her Delta insignia makes it especially visible.

And this isn't just something you can see on High-def or Blu-ray, it's very apparent on normal-def TV as well.

And there's this guy laying in a sickbay bed, face up, insignia fully on display.

 

[Christopher]

But then "In a Mirror, Darkly" went and contradicted this by giving the Defiant uniforms a distinct insignia, based on the Starfleet Command chevron that was often seen on the wall behind admirals on the viewscreen, and that's part of the "racing stripes" on the side of the Enterprise engineering hull.

 

[plynch]

I so prefer the every-ship-with-its-own idea. Same rank braids and division colors across starfleet, but each ship gets to take a little pride in itself when interacting with people from different vessels.

 

[Nerys Myk]

But then "In a Mirror, Darkly" went and contradicted this by giving the Defiant uniforms a distinct insignia, based on the Starfleet Command chevron that was often seen on the wall behind admirals on the viewscreen, and that's part of the "racing stripes" on the side of the Enterprise engineering hull.

Probably because folks like Mike Okuda, who "came up" through fandom thought all ships had unique emblems. Until the Justman memo came to light, I think 99.9% of fandom thought that. I know I did. The myth about posing the bodies on the Defiant to hide the delta took root decades ago and I'm sure those in charge of costuming for ENT thought they were righting a wrong cause by a limited budget.

 

[Harvey]

There is a part of one of the picture-in-picture commentaries on season one by Okuda (and others) where they point out the arrowhead emblem showing up on officers from other ships in "Court Martial" -- although that was recorded after "In A Mirror Darkly" was made.

 

[Avro Arrow]

But then "In a Mirror, Darkly" went and contradicted this by giving the Defiant uniforms a distinct insignia, based on the Starfleet Command chevron that was often seen on the wall behind admirals on the viewscreen, and that's part of the "racing stripes" on the side of the Enterprise engineering hull.

That just shows that this particular Defiant was just one of many out there in the multiverse. The Defiant we saw in The Tholian Web with the arrowhead insignia stayed in the interphase until it was recovered by the Da Vinci in the 24th century!

 

[Christopher]

That just shows that this particular Defiant was just one of many out there in the multiverse. The Defiant we saw in The Tholian Web with the arrowhead insignia stayed in the interphase until it was recovered by the Da Vinci in the 24th century!

That did occur to me.

 

[Maurice]

Pardon me, but

 

[PCz911]

But then "In a Mirror, Darkly" went and contradicted this by giving the Defiant uniforms a distinct insignia, based on the Starfleet Command chevron that was often seen on the wall behind admirals on the viewscreen, and that's part of the "racing stripes" on the side of the Enterprise engineering hull.

Probably because folks like Mike Okuda, who "came up" through fandom thought all ships had unique emblems. Until the Justman memo came to light, I think 99.9% of fandom thought that. I know I did. The myth about posing the bodies on the Defiant to hide the delta took root decades ago and I'm sure those in charge of costuming for ENT thought they were righting a wrong cause by a limited budget.

Wow! Really cool stuff here. Wish we could hear from okuda directly. Lovely thread. Thanks all.

 

[CrazyMatt]

I so prefer the every-ship-with-its-own idea. Same rank braids and division colors across starfleet, but each ship gets to take a little pride in itself when interacting with people from different vessels.

Probably because folks like Mike Okuda, who "came up" through fandom thought all ships had unique emblems. Until the Justman memo came to light, I think 99.9% of fandom thought that. I know I did. The myth about posing the bodies on the Defiant to hide the delta took root decades ago and I'm sure those in charge of costuming for ENT thought they were righting a wrong cause by a limited budget.

 

[Christopher]

Wow! Really cool stuff here. Wish we could hear from okuda directly.

He is a BBS member, so he could drop by.

 

[plynch]

A former student now in the Navy spoke to my classes Friday. On his nametag he is allowed to affix a little symbol of the state of New Mexico, since his sub is the Santa Fe. Not quite the same, but a little customization to allow for ship's pride.

 

[CrazyMatt]

Harvey, did you ever come across any other memos regarding the uniform patches besides the IJM ("Infamous Justman Memo)?

 

[Harvey]

None yet, I'm afraid.

 

[CrazyMatt]

I still find it amazing that no one apparently caught the use of a separate starship patch in "The Doomsday Machine." Given Justman's reaction in the IJM, that seems really shocking.

I know Justman missed the first couple of season two productions with a hip infection, but The DDM was the sixth episode produced and he was surely back on the job by then. I just can't understand how this happened.