Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

[Crazy Eddie]

I just don't buy that the Spock he plays in the dumb Abrams films is THE Spock. He doesn't really act anything like the one I grew up with this whole time.

I don't know about that, I thought he was excellent in both appearances (just a hell of a lot older, seeing how the last time he played Spock was in the mid 1990s during "Unification").

But part of me is beginning to wonder whether or not SpockPrime really is from an alternate reality in the first place. I am increasingly of the opinion that Spock Prime is literally the older version of NuSpock who is cleverly manipulating his younger counterparts to get them to think what they're supposed to think in order to do what he remembers them doing.

It could very well be that when NuSpock asks him "How did you defeat Khan?" Spock Prime told him "Did you know those torpedoes you're carrying are rigged to detonate if anyone tries to transport them? Khan doesn't know that."

 

[F. King Daniel]

If you've best the Best Buy STID extras, you'll know what Spock Prime says...

Spoiler: What he says

"How did you defeat him?"


"I took a hammer..."

 

[Set Harth]

Which DS9 un-retconned in "Trials and Tribilations."

Which can just as easily be un-un-retconned; the alternative is predicated on an assumption that has been contradicted by the writers.

You can't. The timeline would have to be pre-existing for you to travel to it in the first place.

Not if the new timeline is created by the time travel itself, as happened in this case according to Orci.

But the Abramsverse wasn't altered by events in the prime timeline.

I repeat: "the creation of the alternate timeline as a result of events in the Prime timeline". The Abramsverse was created as a result of a time travel event originating in the Prime timeline.

Traveling into your own past means you already know what's going to happen next, because those events are in the past for you. If those events DO NOT play out the way you expect them to, it's either because your knowledge of the past is wrong, or you're in an alternate timeline that is no longer continuous with your own.

Or... wait for it... the events don't play out the way you "expect" them to because you're now there in the middle of them.

Everything that we see in ST09's 2233 is not provably different from what one would "expect", with the exception of the giant Romulan ship from the future and all its repercussions.

The reason it's not CONTINUOUS is because your actions will not contribute to your younger self traveling through time (Temporal Investigations' "Predestination Paradox" or a causality loop), assuming your younger self travels through time at all. In this case, it would only be continuous if through a series of retcons we find out that Spock Prime is the same person as NuSpock after all and that everything he's told his younger friends/self are actually highly veiled references to his own past.

In other words, the timelines are not in the same continuity because the time travel does not operate according to the tired causality loop/predestination paradox model? That's absolute nonsense. A branching timeline does not work that way, and by definition it must be in the same overall continuity as the timeline from which it branched. This isn't a "single timeline" story.

You could say (without any actual evidence) the two universes were identical before Nero arrived and that the differences occurred at that point. It's still, however, a parallel universe to which he traveled, and it doesn't necessarily follow that they WERE identical in every respect.

If the two universes were identical, it doesn't follow that they were really identical? You're not making sense. Besides, we do have evidence; we have the statements of the writers, the official graphic I've already posted, etc. And yes, the Abramsverse is a parallel universe; that is not in question. But if the differences only occurred at the point of Nero's arrival, it was not a previously altered timeline.

Events originating in the Prime timeline created the alternate timeline

No.

Yes. At this point, if I didn't know better, I'd assume you haven't actually seen the 2009 film, since you act as though you don't have a functional understanding of its content. This was depicted during the mind-meld sequence of the film and is not up for debate.

the Abramsverse is a branching timeline which branched from the Prime.

Obviously.

Well, which is it? Because you seem to be contradicting yourself.

Again, the timelines supposedly diverged in 2233, not 2387.

What exactly is that strawman supposed to signify? Who ever said the timeline would diverge in 2387? All that happens in Prime timeline 2387 is that two ships go into a black hole. Then one of them ends up in 2233 which causes the divergence of the timeline.

It ceases to exist for Spock, because he is not IN the prime timeline.

It doesn't matter that he's not in it. He has the capacity to conceive of the existence of timelines which he's not in.

UNTIL he changes reality, only the timeline he is currently in is real.

There's no evidence that he's so small-minded, and arguably there is considerable evidence that he would not be. For example, he's undoubtedly blessed with the ability to think about what happened to his buddy Picard after he left.

No, I mean they can't happen.

In the context of mutliple timelines this statement plays as deliberately obtuse. Which timeline are we speaking about? If it's the Prime, they did happen; if it's the Abrams timeline, they won't happen ( or at least not in the same way ) and aren't expected to.

They already happened.

No they didn't.

Of course they did; they happened during Spock's lifetime before he went back.

Significantly, it doesn't exist for Spock Prime either

Well, you know what they say: the only places that exist are the places we can get to.

Wait, they don't say that?

Their shared continuity can easily be seen given that the same character departs from one and turns up in the other.

Incorrect.

No. There's nothing "incorrect" about that statement, as it merely conveys what was depicted in the film and what is presumably not up for debate. Spock departs the Prime timeline and ends up in an alternate timeline. This would of course be impossible if the timelines were not in the same continuity.

Nero's memories are affected by what he experienced in the alternate timeline, but his memories are no longer consistent with reality.

Nero's memories are totally consistent with reality; it's just that reality comprises more than one universe.

Case in point: Nero insists that Romulus HAS been destroyed. He saw it happen, he remembers it happening. But if he went to Romulus right now, he would see the reality that Romulus HAS NOT been destroyed, that it really is there

Maybe you really should watch the movie again. He says that one of his goals is to prevent the destruction of Romulus. That would be kind of hard to do if he, for some nonsensical reason, believed it to be already destroyed in 2258. It appears that both Spock and Nero have a firmer grip on the concept of parallel universes than you do. Nero claims that Romulus was destroyed because it was destroyed, in Prime 2387; he also thinks that he can prevent its destruction because by that point he's accepted that he's in Abrams 2258. He may be insane, but he's not that insane.

That's probably not such a good idea.

Why not? The phrase "the space-time continuum" adequately conveys the same idea.

 

[Balrog]

Considering the 'Many Worlds' parallel universe theory, there must be a timeline that exists where Spock DID make it with the Red Matter in time to save Romulus, averting the Abramsverse altogether.

Or something.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Which DS9 un-retconned in "Trials and Tribilations."

Which can just as easily be un-un-retconned; the alternative is predicated on an assumption that has been contradicted by the writers.

Until it is contradicted by CANON, that is a moot point.

You can't. The timeline would have to be pre-existing for you to travel to it in the first place.

Not if the new timeline is created by the time travel itself, as happened in this case according to Orci.

We already have Mark Johnson claiming that the timeline was pre-existing and alternate before they arrived, so that isn't an issue. The issue is whether or not the two universes were IDENTICAL prior to their arrival, or just mostly similar with some subtle differences. That has yet to be determined canonically.

I repeat: "the creation of the alternate timeline as a result of events in the Prime timeline"

Is not how the many-worlds theory works. Unless you are using the words "timeline" and "universe" interchangeably or are otherwise confused about the difference between them.

Everything that we see in ST09's 2233 is not provably different from what one would "expect"

Much of what we've seen in the comics is.

In other words, the timelines are not in the same continuity because the time travel does not operate according to the tired causality loop/predestination paradox model? That's absolute nonsense. A branching timeline does not work that way...

Exactly. Branching timelines don't have shared continuity; they cease to be continuous the moment they branch.

For example: Schroedinger puts his cat in the box. You open the box to see if the cat is alive or dead. The "You" in universe A sees the cat alive. The "You" in universe B sees the cat is dead. There can be no exchange of information between these two universes after the branching event; even time travel would merely result in your traveling into the universe that contains a "you arriving in the past" event, and in the ACTUAL interpretation of MWT, that would not necessarily be the only difference between them (this is, again, what we see in "Parallels").

If the two universes were identical, it doesn't follow that they were really identical?

If they were PARALLEL it doesn't follow that they were identical; we have no actual evidence that they were.

Yes.

No. Nero wasn't in the prime timeline when he fired on the Kelvin, he was already IN the Abramsverse. Thus the branching event took place in 2233, NOT 2387.

Nothing that Spock or Nero remember from the Prime Timeline actually happened in the Abramsverse; those events don't effect anything but their memories. Nero's physical presence and his actions affect the timeline, but he has to be present in the Abrams universe to do that. Nothing he did in the Primeline affects the Abramsverse.

It doesn't matter that he's not in it. He has the capacity to conceive of the existence of timelines which he's not in.

I have the capacity to conceive of a chicken sandwich the size of Kentucky. That doesn't mean it really exists.

In the context of mutliple timelines this statement plays as deliberately obtuse. Which timeline are we speaking about?

The Abrams timeline, which presently defines Spock's reality.

Well, you know what they say: the only places that exist are the places we can get to.

Actually, the set of "everything that exists" is called "the universe."

So what do you call something that is not found within the universe?

No. There's nothing "incorrect" about that statement, as it merely conveys what was depicted in the film and what is presumably not up for debate. Spock departs the Prime timeline and ends up in an alternate timeline. This would of course be impossible if the timelines were not in the same continuity.

They are BY DEFINITION not in the same continuity since NuSpock will never make that journey. That, along with a huge list of other things that will never happen in the Abramsverse, combined with the things that could NOT have happened in the Abramsverse, means that they are PARALLEL, realities, not continuous ones.

Nero's memories are totally consistent with reality

Wrong. Nero remembers Romulus being destroyed; it hasn't been. Nero remembers Hobus exploding; it hasn't been. Nero remembers Spock "betrayed" him and allowed Romulus to be destroyed; he didn't. Nero remembers the Federation is ultimately to blame for Romulus' destruction; it isn't.

Part of this is due to the fact that Nero is insane and has difficulty perceiving reality in the first place; reality itself has now changed around him, and he is unable to accept this.

reality comprises more than one universe.

Not from the perspective of individuals, it doesn't. You can only exist in one universe at a time, and even if you can travel between the two, they cannot both be real simultaneously.

Maybe you really should watch the movie again. He says that one of his goals is to prevent the destruction of Romulus.

And the one thing he never thinks to do is go to Hobus with the red matter and destroy it before it goes nova. He's seeking revenge; as he tells Pike "I did not forget the pain, the pain that every Vulcan now shares."

Simply put: Nero is insane, and his perception of reality is was drastically off-target even BEFORE he fell into a black hole. A rational person would have realized that he has no reason to seek "revenge" on Vulcan for their imagined crimes because whatever it is he thinks they did wrong could be rendered moot just by absorbing Hobus early. A crazy person would ignore Hobus altogether and launch a campaign of violence against the only people in the universe who have a chance in hell of saving Romulus in the first place. Nero is the latter; I don't think he's anyone's first choice in "How we interpret the universe."

That's probably not such a good idea.

Why not? The phrase "the space-time continuum" adequately conveys the same idea.

ROFL no it doesn't!

The "space time continuum" is a mathematical construct that combines three spatial dimensions with a fourth timelike dimension in a single manifold. It describes a coordinate system that is valid in EXACTLY ONE universe and describes the reality of that universe from any particular point of view. The whole of general relativity pretty much takes for granted the fact that any object in a space-time manifold can only have exactly one set of coordinates (X, Y, Z, and T) in any particular reference frame.

You seem to be doing a lot of "from the gut" reasoning here, but I'm not sure if you realize that alot of the terms you're using have real definitions, they're not just fancy treknobabble.

 

[Silvercrest]

How is that possible? There's no logical way that Nero's arrival could have affected the past - only the present and anything derived from it.

If events in the past have been shaped by time travelers, than anything that happens BEFORE that time-travel event took place would also affect the past.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

"Anything that happens before that time-travel event took place." What are you talking about, specifically? If you mean things that happen in the 24th century - the "present" - before Nero and Spock Prime enter the black hole, then no, those things can't affect the past, because they were not involved in time travel.

If you mean things that happened in the TOS time frame, before Nero's arrival, then obviously those things will be unchanged, because there's no way Nero could have possibly affected them. When Nero and Spock arrived in the past, they affected all events after that time, but there is no logical way they could possibly affect events BEFORE that time.

Sure there is. We could postulate that the Kelvin was scanning the area with an inverse tachyon pulse as part of a survey mission. The emergence of the Narada in that location a short time later released the equivalent of another inverse tachyon pulse. (We all know that red matter-created black holes have very strange properties.) And the emergence of Spock in that same location decades later released the equivalent of another inverse tachyon pulse.

It's already canon that three inverse tachyon pulses in the same spot at different times will cause an eruption of anti-time which will travel backward and influence the timeline. That would explain any discrepancies which apparently predate the Narada's emergence.

It also explains the gross size disparity between the Prime Enterprise and the nuEnterprise, by the simple explanation:

Spoiler: punch line

"It's bigger in the past!"

 

[Malaika]

I didn't read the whole thread so sorry if someone had already said it

anyway, I think that this reality already existed parallel to the other
if it wasn't nero accident making it different than it would have been another thing. Whatever happened, happened.

Everything is relative when it comes to parallel realities. Some people seem to think that the one we know from tos is the "default" reality that creates the rules and similarities with all the parallel ones.. but truth is that they're all parallel to each other and none of them has the state of "main one". None of the realities need to get "fixed" to look like another. The tos timeline can be itself an alternate reality of the reboot one or another reality that we don't know. Which means that it's the tos reality too that might have similarities with the reboot one or others (not just the reverse thing)
The similarities between realities exist because some things have a high probability of happening which might explain why the crew ends up on the same bridge in, it seems, all of them (or the ones we know) including the mirror ones.
It's difficult for us for think this way because we think about tos as the main reality since it's the one that was showed first to us. In reality though, and looking at it from in-universe perspective, quantum mechanics says that they're all the "main" reality.

here this is from the comics approved by Orci:

 

[BillJ]

I still think this 'one event splits the timeline' stuff is too convenient, in terms of that one event being the arrival of the Narada in 2233 anyway. Things aboard the USS Kelvin already looked far too different (and too much like the rest of the nuTrekverse) for that specific event to have been the timeline change. I still feel something unspecified must have happened even further back than that, to account for those differences. Or, maybe like the Mirror universe, that the JJverse has simply existed parallel to the Prime Trek universe all along.

You're confusing style and improved production values with intent. The intent is that the Kelvin-class existed in the prime timeline prior to Nero's incursion. Bigger ships would be needed for things like colonization and transporting of supplies across interstellar distances. The Constitution-class wasn't all that big and would likely be inadequate for full-scale colonization efforts.

The intent is clear that Enterprise takes place in the same timeline as TOS, yet that clearly has more sophisticated production values than anything we saw in Star Trek.

 

[RandyS]

Yes it was. With 285,000 (or more) universes to play with, there's no reason at all to not see JJ's timeline as completely different from the Prime Universe.

 

[Set Harth]

Until it is contradicted by CANON, that is a moot point.

So everything's about CANON? Really?

We already have Mark Johnson claiming that the timeline was pre-existing and alternate before they arrived, so that isn't an issue.

First of all, are the comments of Mike Johnson to be construed as CANON? How would they overrule comments by the writers of the film, even if accurately represented?

But of course they aren't being accurately represented: remember, ST09 is the butterfly. In other words, the Abramsverse is NOT in any way "alternate before they arrived"; before they arrived, there's nothing "alternate" about it. To proclaim that this leaves the question open as to whether the "two universes" were identical prior to their arrival is to comically throw Johnson's words under the bus right after holding them up as evidence of one's personal theory. And, once again, to envision the Abramsverse as identical to the Prime timeline prior to their arrival is functionally equivalent to envisioning the Abramsverse as a timeline created by the time travel itself; it is a distinction without a difference. To travel into the past of a timeline identical to the Prime is to travel into the past of the Prime.

Is not how the many-worlds theory works.

Well, that's nice. But is it CANON? Everything has to be CANON, right? How does that include your personal spin on what "many-worlds theory" means? Doesn't it have to be in the film?

Unless you are using the words "timeline" and "universe" interchangeably or are otherwise confused about the difference between them.

It would certainly be tragic if someone were to use the words "timeline" and "universe" interchangeably, wouldn't it?

The issue is whether or not the two universes were IDENTICAL prior to their arrival

Oh well.

But you know what they say: to prop up a failing argument, it's always useful to resort to "you're using those words wrong!!!" It gets you out of any rhetorical trouble you can possibly find yourself in. It's like magic!

Much of what we've seen in the comics is.

Yet the writers, including the ones responsible for the comics, have made it clear that they believe the changes started with the Kelvin incident. So how could this be? How can we solve this puzzle?

Branching timelines don't have shared continuity

If one timeline depends on another for its very existence in the first place, or in other words, if one timeline is created through a time-travel event originating in another, how can they not be part of the same continuity? This makes no sense.

(this is, again, what we see in "Parallels").

I don't understand what you think Parallels gets you. The other timelines that we see in Parallels, like the Abramsverse, do not represent "reboots", for lack of a better word; like the Abramsverse, they can in some fashion be traced back to the Prime, however far removed. That is what I mean by "in the same overall continuity".

Nero wasn't in the prime timeline when he fired on the Kelvin, he was already IN the Abramsverse.

Once again, Nero doesn't have to fire on the Kelvin to make the Abramsverse an alternate timeline. He just has to be there, because originally he wasn't. And he's only there because... drum roll... in the Prime timeline, he went into a black hole.

Thus the branching event took place in 2233, NOT 2387.

This strawman yet again? No one has claimed that the branching event took place in 2387. It is, however, accurate to say that the disappearance of Nero into the black hole in Prime 2387 resulted in the branching event of Abramsverse 2233. This is simply what was depicted in the film.

Nothing that Spock or Nero remember from the Prime Timeline actually happened in the Abramsverse

So you're telling me that the Abramsverse is not the Prime timeline?

those events don't effect anything but their memories.

But those memories, by motivating their actions, can affect events in the Abramsverse, as we saw in ST09 and STID.

That doesn't mean it really exists.

Yet parallel universes do exist in ST; remember Parallels? Specifically, the Prime timeline continues to exist, despite the fact that Spock ( as far as we know ) can't get back to it, and based on what we know about Spock's characteristics and those of Vulcans in general, he's not likely to be susceptible to a point of view which loosely translates to "when Mommy plays peek-a-boo, Mommy's really gone".

So what do you call something that is not found within the universe?

Something that is found within a parallel universe?

They are BY DEFINITION not in the same continuity since NuSpock will never make that journey.

Again, that's not the definition of things not being in the same continuity; that's a reflection of the fact that the Abramsverse timeline is an alternate. These are not the same concept.

Wrong. Nero remembers Romulus being destroyed; it hasn't been. Nero remembers Hobus exploding; it hasn't been. Nero remembers Spock "betrayed" him and allowed Romulus to be destroyed; he didn't. Nero remembers the Federation is ultimately to blame for Romulus' destruction; it isn't.

What a mess. This is a mix of two entirely separate issues thrown together into the same paragraph as though to confuse the issue. To separate them:

Nero remembers Romulus being destroyed; it hasn't been.

Yes, it has, but that was in the Prime timeline before he went back. And now Nero wants to prevent the destruction of Romulus in the new timeline.

Nero remembers Hobus exploding; it hasn't been.

Yes, it did, but that was in the Prime timeline before he went back.

Nero remembers Spock "betrayed" him and allowed Romulus to be destroyed; he didn't. Nero remembers the Federation is ultimately to blame for Romulus' destruction; it isn't.

And this is simply the "blame game", or to put it another way, Nero's attitude problem; it has nothing to do with timelines. Apples and oranges.

reality itself has now changed around him, and he is unable to accept this.

Incorrect. He finds out that he's in the past in the very beginning of the film, so he knows what's going on. We see further proof of this when he speaks of his intention to prevent the destruction of Romulus. The film contradicts your contention outright.

Not from the perspective of individuals, it doesn't.

Ah, the time-honored "perspective trick" again. ( Or should we call it the Peek-a-Boo Strategy? )

So much for Parallels. Is the ST continuity supposed to be utterly devoid of individuals capable of conceiving of things outside their own narrow "perspective"?

You can only exist in one universe at a time

So what? You can only be standing on one continent at a time. Does that somehow mean that the other continents fail to exist?

and even if you can travel between the two, they cannot both be real simultaneously.

That makes no sense at all. They must both be real, or else you would not be able to travel between them. Where does it say that parallel universes cannot both be real simultaneously? Is it accurate to say that the Prime and the Mirror Universe cannot both be real simultaneously?

And the one thing he never thinks to do is go to Hobus with the red matter and destroy it before it goes nova.

How do you know what he is or is not thinking? Do you have access to a printout of all his thoughts? It's on his to-do list, as he says outright ( though this continually gets ignored because it's inconvenient to your position ). As to why he doesn't do it right away during the timeframe of the film, there are two factors to consider: he has 129 years to get around to it, making it not exactly urgent, and there's the collateral damage to Romulan subjects to consider. People would likely need to be evacuated first.

A rational person would have realized that he has no reason to seek "revenge" on Vulcan for their imagined crimes because whatever it is he thinks they did wrong could be rendered moot just by absorbing Hobus early.

So Nero is irrational? What does this strawman argument have to do with timelines? Specifically, how does it help to prove fan contention that the Abramsverse was already different before Nero arrived?

A crazy person would ignore Hobus altogether and launch a campaign of violence against the only people in the universe who have a chance in hell of saving Romulus in the first place.

Nero has the red matter. Thus, he has the ability to save Romulus, which is why he announces his intention to do so and doesn't seem especially troubled by the idea of wiping out the major Federation planets.

Totally "crazy", right?

 

[RandyS]

Considering the 'Many Worlds' parallel universe theory, there must be a timeline that exists where Spock DID make it with the Red Matter in time to save Romulus, averting the Abramsverse altogether.

Or something.

You're right. It's what we fans now call "the Prime Timeline". The one where you will find Jefferey Hunter, William Shatner, Deforrest Kelley, James Doohan, Patrick Stewart, Avery Brooks, etc.

The Abramsverse made things needlessly complicated.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Considering the 'Many Worlds' parallel universe theory, there must be a timeline that exists where Spock DID make it with the Red Matter in time to save Romulus, averting the Abramsverse altogether.

Or something.

You're right. It's what we fans now call "the Prime Timeline". The one where you will find Jefferey Hunter, William Shatner, Deforrest Kelley, James Doohan, Patrick Stewart, Avery Brooks, etc.

The Abramsverse made things needlessly complicated.

Nope, in the Prime Timeline, Romulas is toast.

I've never seen any characters named Jefferey Hunter, William Shatner, Deforrest Kelley, James Doohan, Patrick Stewart or Avery Brooks in the Prime Timeline.

There is nothing "needlessly complicated" about the Abramsverse.

 

[BillJ]

The Abramsverse made things needlessly complicated.

I'm not all that bright and I don't find the Abramsverse complicated at all. Nero went back to 2233 and the timeline branched at that point.

Not complicated. Not in the slightest.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Agreed.

I would have been just as satisfied with a flat-out reboot - it still wouldn't have erased the prime timeline - but one takes what one can get.

@SetHarth: Are you suggesting that Nero is planning to wipe out Hobus decades before it goes nova in this timeline? I admit I didn't even think of that. (He'd probably be dead by the time Abrams-2387 comes around, though.)

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Well, that's nice. But is it CANON? Everything has to be CANON, right? How does that include your personal spin on what "many-worlds theory" means? Doesn't it have to be in the film?

It's not my "personal spin" at all, it's what the theory ACTUALLY MEANS. It's an interpretation of quantum mechanics and one possible solution to quantum indeterminacy. It's not even a PROVEN theory, especially in the context of Star Trek where we do not even know if Spock's interpretation of these events is the correct one.

But you know what they say: to prop up a failing argument, it's always useful to resort to "you're using those words wrong!!!" It gets you out of any rhetorical trouble you can possibly find yourself in. It's like magic!

I think I have once again made the mistake of assuming you have some kind of actual well-informed opinion on this issue that was worth discussing on its own merits. I will not make that mistake again.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I would have been just as satisfied with a flat-out reboot - it still wouldn't have erased the prime timeline - but one takes what one can get.

Strictly speaking, we're meant to interpret this as an "in-universe" reboot. Considering the change in history doesn't really reduce the entertainment value of the primeline as we know it (and so far, my TOS-R dvds still appear to be working), I'm not even sure it would make a difference.

Imagine if somebody created an entire spinoff series based in the Evil Mirror universe. Evil Trek would have its own series and its own continuity mostly independent from the Good Trek; they would exist side by side and share very little but a name and the occasional crossover event from one to the other. The pilot episodes of that series ("The Cage Match" followed by "What No Man Has Bombed Before") would basically be a reboot of TOS, running the entire series in Evil Mode.

The Abrams reboot is a tad more subtle, but the basic result is the same: The same stories you already know, retold with a twist.

 

[M'Sharak]

Well, that's nice. But is it CANON? Everything has to be CANON, right? How does that include your personal spin on what "many-worlds theory" means? Doesn't it have to be in the film?

It's not my "personal spin" at all, it's what the theory ACTUALLY MEANS. It's an interpretation of quantum mechanics and one possible solution to quantum indeterminacy. It's not even a PROVEN theory, especially in the context of Star Trek where we do not even know if Spock's interpretation of these events is the correct one.

But you know what they say: to prop up a failing argument, it's always useful to resort to "you're using those words wrong!!!" It gets you out of any rhetorical trouble you can possibly find yourself in. It's like magic!

I think I have once again made the mistake of assuming you have some kind of actual well-informed opinion on this issue that was worth discussing on its own merits. I will not make that mistake again.

As long as we're correcting mistakes, here's one for both of you to work on:

once it becomes plain that neither of you is going to be budged by the other's argument, just acknowledge that and either stop talking about it or walk away from the discussion altogether. Don't keep it going solely in order to escalate to making personal digs at each other.

 

[Belz...]

I've been reading some comments from Mike Johnson (of Star Trek Ongoing from IDW), and he seems to be under the impression that the Abramsverse was already an alternate universe before Spock Prime arrived on the scene.

Has anyone else heard this? Do Orci and Abrams share the same view? I'd love thoughts on the matter!

My opinion is that yes. At least in First Contact they altered some stuff because of their trip. Maybe in other time-travel events, too. In some episodes it seems to be predestination, though that's not sure, but in others it's clearly not, like in DS9 when Sisko replaces a historical figure.

 

[Set Harth]

It's not my "personal spin" at all, it's what the theory ACTUALLY MEANS.

Even if true, it doesn't matter. If what you're saying is accurate, the writer has used incorrect terminology ( though that's a charge that tends to be thrown around quite often in these parts ). But this cannot be reasonably construed as an indication that the writer's explicit intent is somehow overruled.

I quote: "the act of time travel itself creates a new universe that exists in PARALLEL to the one left by the time traveler."

"There is an alternative timeline created by Nero traveling back in time."

we do not even know if Spock's interpretation of these events is the correct one.

Well, that's what writers and the internet are for. ( It also helps to realize that since a writer generally will not be able to break the fourth wall by teleporting bodily into the action and telling us that, yes, what our protagonists are saying is going on is really, truly, definitively the same as what is supposed to be actually going on, in practice character dialogue will be used for the purpose of exposition and the audience will go along. This is a compromise that traditionally goes hand-in-hand with the process of filmmaking. )

Are you suggesting that Nero is planning to wipe out Hobus decades before it goes nova in this timeline? I admit I didn't even think of that.

We don't even have to speculate and make guesses about what a Romulan with red matter would do in his situation; he says as much.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

At least in First Contact they altered some stuff because of their trip. Maybe in other time-travel events, too. In some episodes it seems to be predestination, though that's not sure, but in others it's clearly not, like in DS9 when Sisko replaces a historical figure.

In both of those cases - ST:FC, and that DS9 episode - we have no proof that it still wasn't predestination.

Even in DS9, we do meet an 'original' Gabriel Bell, but there's no proof that he was ever the one that made history. For all we know, Sisko was always Bell. Remember, no one ever bothered looking up Bell's picture before all this happened...

besides, in both of these cases, the time travelers involved actually returned to the same future they left, so therefore, we can conclude that they didn't actually change anything.