Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

[Set Harth]

Actually, the only thing that's still canon in the new timeline is Enterprise and NX-01.

And everything else is still canon, in its own timeline, just comprised of stuff that's not going to re-happen in the Abrams timeline.

Check out comment number 8, then scroll down to Mike Johnson's reply at comment number 18.

That comment might not be saying what you think it's saying, though. Note that the commenter claims "the jj-verse was a different universe before Nero interrupted the timeline" but then goes on to say "it was the Narada’s interference that caused the change between the two formerly identical universes". In other words, the "different universe" that Nero went into was, until his arrival, a carbon copy of the Prime. As such it's a distinction without a difference: going into the past of a carbon copy of the Prime and creating a branching timeline/universe by going into the past of the Prime really amount to pretty much the same thing.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The only thing up for debate is whether it's parallel because of their arrival or whether they arrived in a universe that was ALREADY running parallel to the prime one except for some rather subtle differences.

That's only "up for debate" if the intention of the writers is ignored.

Which it safely can be, and WILL be -- assuming it hasn't already -- when OTHER writers get involved.

What we're trying to do is reconcile what we've seen with what we would expect to see if the timelines diverged as implied. There are too many elements that don't fit nicely, and the simpler explanation is that the timelines were similar but not entirely identical and that Spock and Nero did not arrive in their own causal past; HAD they not arrived, the timelines would still have been noticeably different.

Not all of them.

I was specifically referring to Khan alone.

I wasn't. Section 31 is extremely active in this timeline and has been for at least a century (we first see them in ST-Enterprise). It doesn't seem to have been active in the Primeline, in fact some of the more underhanded things we see going on in the 23rd century -- Cartwright's assassination plot, for instance -- are never openly connected with Section 31 (you'd think Spock's mind meld would have revealed the code name for the entire conspiracy if there was one, right?).

Khan got scooped up by Section 31 in this timeline because Section 31 EXISTS in this timeline. Vulcan's destruction probably wouldn't have similar consequences in the TOS progression.

 

[Lance]

Actually, the only thing that's still canon in the new timeline is Enterprise and NX-01. As I've said many times before, the overall continuity makes a lot more sense if you take Star Trek Enterprise to be the reboot (the New TOS) and then interpret the Abramsverse movies as being basically "Enterprise: the Next Generation."

I independently came to basically the same conclusion. The nuTrek movies are what The Original Series would have looked like if it had actually been made after 'Enterprise', rather than before it.

That's how I approach the movies when I watch them, too.

Stylistically, 'Enterprise' isn't much of a prequel to TOS. It's just too different to be completely reconcilable. nuTrek is in a lot of ways a much more plausible reinterpretation of TOS, as seen from the viewpoint of using the events of 'Enterprise' as backstory.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Actually, the only thing that's still canon in the new timeline is Enterprise and NX-01.

And everything else is still canon, in its own timeline, just comprised of stuff that's not going to re-happen in the Abrams timeline.

Check out comment number 8, then scroll down to Mike Johnson's reply at comment number 18.

That comment might not be saying what you think it's saying, though. Note that the commenter claims "the jj-verse was a different universe before Nero interrupted the timeline" but then goes on to say "it was the Narada’s interference that caused the change between the two formerly identical universes". In other words, the "different universe" that Nero went into was, until his arrival, a carbon copy of the Prime. As such it's a distinction without a difference: going into the past of a carbon copy of the Prime and creating a branching timeline/universe by going into the past of the Prime really amount to pretty much the same thing.

If there's an alternate timeline, it makes sense to consider an alternate canon. Especially since it's a foregone conclusion the two universes will not merge at any point in the future.

I mean, that IS the entire implication of an "alternate universe" right? The Abrams universe has its own canon that includes only ST-Enterprise while the Prime timeline PROBABLY includes ST-Enterprise as well.

Basically: there are LITERALLY two different Star Treks.

 

[uniderth]

Plus Khan is a white man in JJverse. So if there ever was a connection it would have had to split before Khan was created. Thus Khan becomes a white man in JJverse and a Hispanic-looking/sounding Indian man in the real universe.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Plus Khan is a white man in JJverse. So if there ever was a connection it would have had to split before Khan was created. Thus Khan becomes a white man in JJverse and a Hispanic-looking/sounding Indian man in the real universe.

In the Star Trek Universe(s) a quick trip to sickbay can make a human into a Romulan. Turing an Indian human into a European human is probably child's play. Especially for Section 31, who might have reasons for hiding Khan's true face.

 

[BlueMetroid]

We'll find out about Khan's appearance change once and for all next month when the 5th and final issue hits. In issue 4 Marcus already mentioned that "the best surgeons in Starfleet" worked on Khan after his "accident", so to me that pretty much sets the stage for that explanation. We'll see!

 

[Lance]

Plus Khan is a white man in JJverse. So if there ever was a connection it would have had to split before Khan was created. Thus Khan becomes a white man in JJverse and a Hispanic-looking/sounding Indian man in the real universe.

In the Star Trek Universe(s) a quick trip to sickbay can make a human into a Romulan. Turing an Indian human into a European human is probably child's play. Especially for Section 31, who might have reasons for hiding Khan's true face.

Heck, people talk like race-lifting somebody would be some kind of miracle. But anyone with enough money could pay a decent surgeon to do it even today! That kind of thing isn't even beyond our current technology, let alone the more advanced technology of the 23rd century.

 

[Set Harth]

and WILL be -- assuming it hasn't already -- when OTHER writers get involved.

You seem pretty confident in asserting this - CAPITAL LETTERS, no less - even though you presumably have no way to actually predict the future. There is no guarantee that future writers will do what you want them to do.

It doesn't seem to have been active in the Primeline

The key words here are "seem to". Things are not always as they seem. We might ask: did the Enterprise writers think they were writing something that was in the same timeline as previous material ( just earlier ), or did they think they were writing content for a different timeline entirely? Does writer intent even matter?

Khan got scooped up by Section 31 in this timeline because Section 31 EXISTS in this timeline.

There is no proof that Section 31 did not exist in the original timeline.

If there's an alternate timeline, it makes sense to consider an alternate canon.

Not really. In ST alternate timelines of this sort coexist in the same overall continuity. They are analogous to locations. The Abramsverse timeline, as a timeline which branches from the Prime in 2233, is derived from the Prime and as such its very existence results from the existence of the Prime timeline. Not to mention the fact that one of its denizens is an escapee from that timeline. It would be nonsensical to say that Spock's previous life experiences are no longer "canon" or that the events leading up to Prime timeline 2387 are not "canon" from the perspective of the Abramsverse. Those things still happened, despite the fact that one of the individuals they happened to is now living in a different universe.

Plus Khan is a white man in JJverse. So if there ever was a connection it would have had to split before Khan was created.

No. Once again, since it was ignored the first time, Khan is the same as TOS Khan before Marcus gets involved.

 

[Lance]

I think the phrases 'canon' and 'continuity' are erroneously being used in an iterchangable way in this thread.

They aren't really the same thing though. The nuTrekverse is it's own little pocket of 'continuity', but it is still undeniably a part of the same 'canon' (the overall body of work) comprising official Star Trek.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Plus Khan is a white man in JJverse. So if there ever was a connection it would have had to split before Khan was created. Thus Khan becomes a white man in JJverse and a Hispanic-looking/sounding Indian man in the real universe.

You do know Khan was supposed to be Indian and not Hispanic, right? And that they dropped his skin-darkening makeup for Wrath of Khan and changed all his followers into Aryan youths?

I bet you never even noticed.

 

[Kevman7987]

I just figured that the NuTrek universe was shifted to an alternate timeline going both forwards and backwarsd in time from the point of divergence of Nero's arrival.

It makes sense to me, so that's what I'm going with.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I just figured that the NuTrek universe was shifted to an alternate timeline going both forwards and backwarsd in time from the point of divergence of Nero's arrival.

How is that possible? There's no logical way that Nero's arrival could have affected the past - only the present and anything derived from it.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

and WILL be -- assuming it hasn't already -- when OTHER writers get involved.

You seem pretty confident in asserting this - CAPITAL LETTERS, no less - even though you presumably have no way to actually predict the future. There is no guarantee that future writers will do what you want them to do.

It doesn't matter what I want. I expect them to ignore the intent of previous writers because 1) it has always happened when Star Trek changes creative teams and 2) it has ALREADY happened as far as the comics are concerned. It's not much of a stretch to say it will happen again in the future.

It doesn't seem to have been active in the Primeline

The key words here are "seem to". Things are not always as they seem. We might ask: did the Enterprise writers think they were writing something that was in the same timeline as previous material ( just earlier ), or did they think they were writing content for a different timeline entirely? Does writer intent even matter?

To the extremely limited extent that writer's intent matters AT ALL, I think the intent has to actually be there and be relevant to the material that was finally produced. If, for example, the writers never thought about it one way or the other, it doesn't necessarily matter how subsequent writers interpret the implications of those events.

What I'm really drawing attention to is the fact that Section 31 is a Trek villain that was invented in the 24th century spinoffs and then retconned into the earlier years through ST-Enterprise. This neccesarily creates all kinds of weird complications as far as the TOS timeline, complications which have now become manifest in the NuTrek universe independent of Nero's influence. So even if it wasn't INTENDED to be a fully alternate timeline, it's definitely being written like one.

Not really. In ST alternate timelines of this sort coexist in the same overall continuity.

This one doesn't. It's an abrupt discontinuity from everything in the previous timeline other than ST-Enterprise, one that -- unlike all previous alternate timelines -- cannot and will not be reconciled with the original. For all intents and purposes it's an "alternate Star Trek."

Basically, it would be like Peter Parker falling into a wormhole and meeting a different version of himself, whereupon he changes his name to "The Scarlet Spider." In comic books, that would be a kind of mindfuck meta-crossover; in Star Trek, it's called "Tuesday."

They are analogous to locations.

Inasmuch as the Star Wars galaxy and the Milky Way are analogous to locations. That DOES NOT make them part of the same continuity.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I just figured that the NuTrek universe was shifted to an alternate timeline going both forwards and backwarsd in time from the point of divergence of Nero's arrival.

How is that possible? There's no logical way that Nero's arrival could have affected the past - only the present and anything derived from it.

If events in the past have been shaped by time travelers, than anything that happens BEFORE that time-travel event took place would also affect the past.

The thing is, those changes would have been evident in the altered timeline long before their ultimate cause (Nero and/or Spock) was actually present. Nero/Spock would still be the cause of the divergence, but the divergence would have occurred much earlier, beginning with the earliest temporal incursion with a causal connection to Nero/Spock.

Here's something to ponder: a single red matter black hole does not lead to a single exit point, as we've already seen that two different objects pulled into the same hole at slightly different times (Narada and Jellyfish) can actually emerge at two completely different points in time. That being the case, what do you suppose happened to all the debris from the Narada when it got sucked into the black hole at the end of the first film?

 

[C.E. Evans]

The only problem will be when you occur other people who insist on it being just one way.

The intention of the writers is what it is.

For you, maybe. I think what's actually said onscreen counts more.

Allowing them to define what is going on in the film they wrote is surely preferable to allowing disgruntled fans to rewrite the plot.

Nah. People have always been free to speculate on things that aren't actually specified onscreen. You can agree or disagree with how well their speculation fits onscreen material, but they do have that right.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The only problem will be when you occur other people who insist on it being just one way.

The intention of the writers is what it is.

For you. That's the aforementioned insisting on it being just one way, especially when something isn't actually specified onscreen.

In this case, I think they did. Or as close as they could with totally breaking the fourth wall.

 

[C.E. Evans]

The intention of the writers is what it is.

For you. That's the aforementioned insisting on it being just one way, especially when something isn't actually specified onscreen.

In this case, I think they did. Or as close as they could with totally breaking the fourth wall.

I had already amended my post to say that I think what's said onscreen counts more--and the only thing said onscreen was that Nero changed a timeline of events. Whether that timeline was of the original universe or an already alternate universe still remains debatable. It really can go either way, depending on how you want to roll with it.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I just figured that the NuTrek universe was shifted to an alternate timeline going both forwards and backwarsd in time from the point of divergence of Nero's arrival.

How is that possible? There's no logical way that Nero's arrival could have affected the past - only the present and anything derived from it.

If events in the past have been shaped by time travelers, than anything that happens BEFORE that time-travel event took place would also affect the past.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

"Anything that happens before that time-travel event took place." What are you talking about, specifically? If you mean things that happen in the 24th century - the "present" - before Nero and Spock Prime enter the black hole, then no, those things can't affect the past, because they were not involved in time travel.

If you mean things that happened in the TOS time frame, before Nero's arrival, then obviously those things will be unchanged, because there's no way Nero could have possibly affected them. When Nero and Spock arrived in the past, they affected all events after that time, but there is no logical way they could possibly affect events BEFORE that time.

what do you suppose happened to all the debris from the Narada when it got sucked into the black hole at the end of the first film?

Oh, that. Well we have absolutely no idea what happened to the debris from the Narada. I suppose it could have ended up in the pre-2233 past, but unless we are specifically shown that, then it didn't happen. You can speculate all you like, but there's no proof of it.

 

[Nerys Myk]

For you. That's the aforementioned insisting on it being just one way, especially when something isn't actually specified onscreen.

In this case, I think they did. Or as close as they could with totally breaking the fourth wall.

I had already amended my post to say that I think what's said onscreen counts more--and the only thing said onscreen was that Nero changed a timeline of events. Whether that timeline was of the original universe or an already alternate universe still remains debatable. It really can go either way, depending on how you want to roll with it.

It's a bit hard to say you're from a specific timeline with in the context of the story. You can place the dots and hope the viewer will draw the lines. If they want to ignore the dots for what ever reason, that's not the writers' fault.