Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

[Crazy Eddie]

If you don't know the writer's intent, then the writer's intent is not important. If, in your attempt to determine the writer's intent you discover that he actually didn't think that far ahead when he was writing it, then the writer's intent remains unimportant.

Of course, we do know the writer's intent in this case

Yes. We know the writer was interpreting time travel in the context of a multiverse in which Spock and Nero traveled to an alternate timeline that already existed. The extent to which those two universes were identical up to that point is not something the writers actually specified, mainly because -- stylistic/subtle differences or not, it doesn't REALLY matter to the story.

Subsequent writers have ignored this intention, which is the other point you seem to be ignoring. Landru, for example, is not an alien-developed AI and is instead a Section 31 black op; Kor has brow ridges, Klingons have cloaking devices, and the Gorn are aliens from another galaxy.

It already has.

No, it hasn't.

See above.

So what? Where are all these imaginary rules coming from?

From the typical definition of "continuity" in which one event logically follows from another in a predictable and understandable way.

In this case, they do not. The new timeline exists because of something Nero did after he arrived IN it. Events in the 24th century primeline do not affect the alternate timeline and it now stands on its own: they no longer share a history.

Besides, you only assume that nothing taking place in the Prime timeline can affect the Abramsverse in the film era

It's a pretty safe assumption, unless someone decides that the Abramsverse isn't an alternate timeline and is actually a stylized prequel to TOS after all.

Exactly how they manage to reconcile that in universe would be amusing to see.

It was created by events in the Prime timeline.

Incorrect. It was created by events in its OWN timeline. Nero had already departed the primeline when he fired on the Kelvin.

However, they did not die in the Prime timeline.

They fell into a black hole and ceased to exist altogether. That's a distinction without a difference.

because from his point of view it no longer exists.

This is simply false. He has no reason to assume that the Prime timeline ceased to exist just because he went into the black hole

True. He can assume it ceased to exist primarily because Nero destroyed Vulcan; none of the events of the prime timeline that SpockPrime remembers can actually happen now.

So from his point of view, the old timeline ceases to exist.

They are NOT part of the same continuity, in this case; in fact, this is literally an example of a DIScontinuity

Using the word "discontinuity" does not serve as an argument that things are not in the same continuity.

It's a question of definition, really.

Somebody draws two parallel lines coming out of a box, and you want to call them "perpendicular" because they're joined by the box.

But they're not perpendicular and therefore are not part of the same segment. They're parallel. Meaning "side by side." Meaning they are not part of the same continuity. They are part of a larger construct that is the "Star Trek" multiverse, but they are not continuous; for the first time in history Star Trek now has MULTIPLE continuities existing in parallel.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

If you mean things that happened in the TOS time frame, before Nero's arrival, then obviously those things will be unchanged because there's no way Nero could have possibly affected them.

Of course he could. If, for example, the TOS timeline contains a temporal incursion in which USS Kelvin traveled from 2237 to the Man-Kzin Wars of the 21st century, then DESTROYING Kelvin in 2233 would have prevented Kelvin's 21st century time travel adventure.

You'll notice I said BEFORE Nero's arrival.

2237 is after.

The Man-Kzin wars are not, and Kelvin could not have traveled into the past to participate in them if Nero had blown it to pieces before it could do so. So destroying the Kelvin in the 23rd century erases its (hypothetical) presence in the 21st, an effect which would have been part of the timeline before Nero actually arrived in it.

Anything that happened before 2233 - specifically, before the Narada and Kelvin encountered each other - must be assumed to be identical.

Unless, as I said, the events of 2233 negated time travel events that affected the past of that timeline, which we ALREADY KNOW to be the case insofar as the time travel adventures of Picard et al could not have happened the way they did in the primeline, if they happened at all.

So Nero's incursion affected the events of First Contact, affected Mark Twain's literary career, and very probably pevented Doctor Nichols' early invention of transparent aluminum. All of those effects are already present before their ultimate cause -- Nero himself -- actually arrive in this universe. Remember that if you accept time travel is even possible, you necessarily accept that forward causality can be violated: since an effect CAN precede its cause, then Nero's effect on the timeline CAN extend to the past as well as the future.

As for Narada's debris: until you know for sure what happened to it, you are in no position to claim that it "could not" have affected the past, as you are now claiming. We DO NOT KNOW whether or not Nero's incursion had an effect on this timeline's past; that's a long way from saying it's impossible.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I recommend Christopher's epic Department of Temporal Investigations: Watching the Clock. It weaves all of Trek's seemingly incoherent and contradictory time travel methods into a complex but harmonious system and tells the excellent story of Agents Dulmur and Lucsley too. this is packed with spoilers, but gives an idea how much research (both in Trekverse and RL theories) went into the book.

 

[Set Harth]

We know the writer was interpreting time travel in the context of a multiverse in which Spock and Nero traveled to an alternate timeline that already existed.

Wrong. The writer said outright that the time travel created the alternate timeline.

Kor has brow ridges

Already addressed: this reflects TMP's decades-old retcon of the Klingon appearance, not an attempt to canonize fan contention with regard to the Abramsverse.

Klingons have cloaking devices

This does not reflect an attempt to make the Abramsverse into a preexisting alternate timeline, as evidenced by its presence in a ST09 deleted scene ( given that ST09 was written with the intent that everything was the same until Nero arrived ).

and the Gorn are aliens from another galaxy.

Already addressed by another poster: there is no proof that the TOS Gorn were not also aliens from another galaxy.

From the typical definition of "continuity" in which one event logically follows from another in a predictable and understandable way.

First, let's throw out "predictable"; continuity has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not you can predict what happens next. ( So much for "typical". ) We're left with "one event logically follows from another" - such as the creation of the alternate timeline as a result of events in the Prime timeline. Or Spock leaving one universe and turning up in another.

The new timeline exists because of something Nero did after he arrived IN it.

Nope. In fact, that's an obvious logical non-starter; how can one arrive in a timeline whose very existence is dependent on one's actions subsequent to arrival? It would be accurate to say: "George Kirk does not exist because of something Nero did." But the timeline is already different by virtue of Nero's mere presence before he does anything at all.

Events in the 24th century primeline do not affect the alternate timeline

Events originating in the Prime timeline created the alternate timeline, so in that sense the alternate timeline was affected by events in the Prime timeline. ( It is also at least possible, however unlikely, that someone could figure out a way to travel between the timelines. )

they no longer share a history.

They share a history prior to 2233, barring other time-travel shenanigans about which we don't have specifics. But the relevant "history" here is that the Abramsverse is a branching timeline which branched from the Prime.

It's a pretty safe assumption, unless someone decides that the Abramsverse isn't an alternate timeline and is actually a stylized prequel to TOS after all.

There's really nothing particularly safe about it IMO, given all the strange abilities, phenomena and alien technologies that have been featured in this franchise over the years.

They fell into a black hole and ceased to exist altogether.

Incorrect. We know for a fact that they did not cease to exist, just by watching the film. Just because Picard can't reach them does not mean they have "ceased to exist".

They're parallel. Meaning "side by side."

Except at the point where one branches from the other.

He can assume it ceased to exist primarily because Nero destroyed Vulcan

That makes no sense at all. Would he really be that illogical? Why would the Prime timeline cease to exist because Nero destroyed a planet in the Abramsverse timeline? Weren't you the one who was saying events in one timeline couldn't have an effect on the other?

none of the events of the prime timeline that SpockPrime remembers can actually happen now.

They already happened. You mean they can't "re-happen" in the alternate timeline, but that is in the nature of an alternate timeline. Things are not expected to "re-happen" the way they did in the Prime. That is what an alternate or altered timeline is all about. That, however, says nothing about the existence of the Prime timeline. The existence of the Prime timeline is not somehow dependent on the Abramsverse timeline changing into the Prime timeline. The Abramsverse timeline exists in parallel to the Prime timeline. As such the Prime timeline goes on after Spock and Nero vanish, as depicted in Countdown ( there's that writer intent thing again ), and its continued existence is not dependent on events in the Abramsverse.

For all intents and purposes, they DIED in the primeline

Is this the same timeline that has allegedly ceased to exist from Spock Prime's POV? So if the entire timeline ceased to exist, didn't everyone else cease to exist as well, making a reference to Spock and Nero being dead meaningless?

they are not continuous

Their shared continuity can easily be seen given that the same character departs from one and turns up in the other. I use "overall continuity" and "multiverse" interchangeably; because the new timeline was created by time travel originating in the Prime, these timelines are part of the same overall continuity or multiverse. If Star Trek had actually rebooted completely and created an entirely distinct continuity with no connection whatsoever to the original canon, that continuity would have been a separate multiverse.

 

[Lance]

I still think this 'one event splits the timeline' stuff is too convenient, in terms of that one event being the arrival of the Narada in 2233 anyway. Things aboard the USS Kelvin already looked far too different (and too much like the rest of the nuTrekverse) for that specific event to have been the timeline change. I still feel something unspecified must have happened even further back than that, to account for those differences. Or, maybe like the Mirror universe, that the JJverse has simply existed parallel to the Prime Trek universe all along.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I thought the Kelvin was a very "realistic" (if you could call it that) extrapolation as to what a TOS-era ship might look like, given modern day effects budgets. I didn't see any discontinuity at all between it and the TOS-era Enterprise.

 

[BeatleJWOL]

I thought the Kelvin was a very "realistic" (if you could call it that) extrapolation as to what a TOS-era ship might look like, given modern day effects budgets. I didn't see any discontinuity at all between it and the TOS-era Enterprise.

The window-ish viewscreen is pretty different, really, but the rest could be argued as an "it was always that way" extrapolation, yes; so that would fit with Comic!Kor having forehead ridges.

I think just as long as nobody is insisting that the Prime timeline is erased, gone, never to return? There's more agreement here than not.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I don't even consider NuTrek the same franchise as classic Trek. NuTrek is as much the same universe as classic Trek as Nolan Batman is the same universe as Burton Batman or Adam West Batman.

And that's a positive thing. NuTrek is a lot easier to enjoy as it's own new rebooted franchise as it is to enjoy as an alternate timeline in the same universe as classic Trek.

 

[Santa Kang]

I don't even consider NuTrek the same franchise as classic Trek. NuTrek is as much the same universe as classic Trek as Nolan Batman is the same universe as Burton Batman or Adam West Batman.

And that's a positive thing. NuTrek is a lot easier to enjoy as it's own new rebooted franchise as it is to enjoy as an alternate timeline in the same universe as classic Trek.

The Franchise is "Batman" or "Star Trek", not a specific iteration of them.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

Over the last four years I've gotten a little sick of Enterprise fans thinking that their show was the only one not erased from continuity. Especially considering that their shows mediocrity was what necessitated the reboot to begin with.

So yeah, any interpretation that erases Enterprise is fine with me. If it can somehow be more erased than TOS, TNG, and DS9, that would be even better.

Said blame for Enterprise being made lying with UPN/Paramount brass who wanted to make another show, even though Berman & Braga wanted to rest for a while and not start another one immediately. And yeah, at least the movies mention it.

 

[BlueMetroid]

I still think this 'one event splits the timeline' stuff is too convenient, in terms of that one event being the arrival of the Narada in 2233 anyway. Things aboard the USS Kelvin already looked far too different (and too much like the rest of the nuTrekverse) for that specific event to have been the timeline change. I still feel something unspecified must have happened even further back than that, to account for those differences. Or, maybe like the Mirror universe, that the JJverse has simply existed parallel to the Prime Trek universe all along.

Agreed. Also, I believe I read somewhere that the Kelvin's crew compliment was much larger than Federation ships should have had at that time. I don't recall the specifics, but it does fit in with your theory.

 

[Santa Kang]

I still think this 'one event splits the timeline' stuff is too convenient, in terms of that one event being the arrival of the Narada in 2233 anyway. Things aboard the USS Kelvin already looked far too different (and too much like the rest of the nuTrekverse) for that specific event to have been the timeline change. I still feel something unspecified must have happened even further back than that, to account for those differences. Or, maybe like the Mirror universe, that the JJverse has simply existed parallel to the Prime Trek universe all along.

Agreed. Also, I believe I read somewhere that the Kelvin's crew compliment was much larger than Federation ships should have had at that time. I don't recall the specifics, but it does fit in with your theory.

We saw one type of Federation starship in the TOS era of the Prime timeline. Hard to say what was "normal" for that time with such limited data.

 

[Lance]

I still think this 'one event splits the timeline' stuff is too convenient, in terms of that one event being the arrival of the Narada in 2233 anyway. Things aboard the USS Kelvin already looked far too different (and too much like the rest of the nuTrekverse) for that specific event to have been the timeline change. I still feel something unspecified must have happened even further back than that, to account for those differences. Or, maybe like the Mirror universe, that the JJverse has simply existed parallel to the Prime Trek universe all along.

Agreed. Also, I believe I read somewhere that the Kelvin's crew compliment was much larger than Federation ships should have had at that time. I don't recall the specifics, but it does fit in with your theory.

We saw one type of Federation starship in the TOS era of the Prime timeline.

See, that's exactly the point. I'm not convinced that we *did* see that.

Hard to say what was "normal" for that time with such limited data.

The thing is, there was a very specific sort of progression in the technology of the Prime universe as presented in Star Trek. Whether it's the Pike Enterprise from TOS, the TOS Enterprise, the movie Enterprise(s) or the NextGen era, everything had a logical progression.

Even the NX-01 fits into that logical progression of technology.

The USS Kelvin... had some technology that seemed way different than what the original TOS Enterprise had, or even the NX-01, but which had a logical progression to the Enterprise presented later in the same movie, as well as the USS Vengeance in the very next one.

I still feel that the Narada v Kelvin fight happens in an already well established parallel universe. Like the mirror universe, it has been running parallel to the 'prime' Star Trek timeline all along. Somehow, when it travelled back in time, the Narada also managed to breach the parallel universe and arrive there instead. And I find entering into watching the movie with this in mind allows me to enjoy it without me nitpicking it to pieces, so quite frankly that's gotta be a plus point, right?

 

[Santa Kang]

The Kelvin and the Kobayashi Maru simulator are very "lower tech". I'd say lower tech than a ship from 300 years in the future should be. A lot of physical knobs and switches that look clunky to the 21st Century eye. So I'm not seeing a lot of tech that's more advanced than the TOS Enterprise. Just a more 21st Century SFX way to represent that tech.

 

[milojthatch]

I've been reading some comments from Mike Johnson (of Star Trek Ongoing from IDW), and he seems to be under the impression that the Abramsverse was already an alternate universe before Spock Prime arrived on the scene.

Has anyone else heard this? Do Orci and Abrams share the same view? I'd love thoughts on the matter!

From what I have read, Bob Orci claims that it was created in the same way the alternate universe in Back to the Future was. I say he's full of crap and that STID proves without a doubt that it was an alternate universe all along. In fact, I bet Lenard Nimoy's Spock is really from an alternate universe and the whole thing really is a clean re-boot after all. It's not like Nimoy hasn't played an alternate universe Spock before...

Spoiler: image linked from startrek.com with very long URL

http://www.trekbbs.com/data:image/jpeg;base64,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[/IMG]

http://www.startrek.com/legacy_media/images/200306/tos-039-the-mirror-spock-revea/320x240.jpg[/spoiler]

[I][Converted to link. Pics posted as embedded images should be hosted on web space or an image-sharing account registered to you. - [B]M'[/B]][/I]

I just don't buy that the Spock he plays in the dumb Abrams films is THE Spock. He doesn't really act anything like the one I grew up with this whole time.

I think what this all really comes down to is that we fans care a lot more than JJ Abrams does. To him, it's just another feather in his film resume.

 

[F. King Daniel]

About the way the Kelvin looked, see the complete change in Starfleet's aesthetic between TOS and TMP, just 7.5 years later. Now start with TOS and go backwards 34 years. Plenty of time for designs to change. As for the ship's larger size, dozens of shuttles and 800+ crew, they just built bigger in those days (and continued to do so in the AU)

I think what this all really comes down to is that we fans care a lot more than JJ Abrams does. To him, it's just another feather in his film resume.

Leonard Nimoy IS Spock, played a massive part in the character's development over the decades, and had every right to refuse the part if he wasn't happy with the portrayal of his character (as he had previously done in Generations). That he loved ST'09 and was happy to come back for a tiny cameo in ID says it all.

 

[M'Sharak]

I've been reading some comments from Mike Johnson (of Star Trek Ongoing from IDW), and he seems to be under the impression that the Abramsverse was already an alternate universe before Spock Prime arrived on the scene.

Has anyone else heard this? Do Orci and Abrams share the same view? I'd love thoughts on the matter!

From what I have read <snip>

Spoiler: image linked from startrek.com with very long URL

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[/IMG]

http://www.startrek.com/legacy_media/images/200306/tos-039-the-mirror-spock-revea/320x240.jpg[/spoiler]

[I][Converted to link. Pics posted as embedded images should be hosted on web space or an image-sharing account registered to you. - [B]M'[/B]][/I]

<snip> [/QUOTE][B]milojthatch[/B], please don't hotlink images from startrek.com or other websites which are not yours unless you have explicitly been granted permission to do so. If you wish to post pics as embedded images, you'll want to sign up for an image-sharing service such as Photobucket or Imageshack and host the pics on your own account.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I'll just repeat: I thought the Kelvin was a very faithful approximation of a TOS-era ship, but done using modern-day effects budgets. Of course we were never going to get a ship that looked exactly like the Enterprise did in the original series, but I did not see anything in the Kelvin that openly contradicted TOS' aesthetics. I thought it was one of the most interesting looking bridges I've seen, in fact. It would have been great to see what they would have made the actual TOS Enterprise bridge look like.

 

[BlueMetroid]

Leonard Nimoy IS Spock, played a massive part in the character's development over the decades, and had every right to refuse the part if he wasn't happy with the portrayal of his character (as he had previously done in Generations). That he loved ST'09 and was happy to come back for a tiny cameo in ID says it all.

I couldn't have said it any better myself

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Already addressed: this reflects TMP's decades-old retcon of the Klingon appearance

Which DS9 un-retconned in "Trials and Tribilations."

First, let's throw out "predictable"; continuity has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not you can predict what happens next.

It does with time travel. Traveling into your own past means you already know what's going to happen next, because those events are in the past for you. If those events DO NOT play out the way you expect them to, it's either because your knowledge of the past is wrong, or you're in an alternate timeline that is no longer continuous with your own.

The reason it's not CONTINUOUS is because your actions will not contribute to your younger self traveling through time (Temporal Investigations' "Predestination Paradox" or a causality loop), assuming your younger self travels through time at all. In this case, it would only be continuous if through a series of retcons we find out that Spock Prime is the same person as NuSpock after all and that everything he's told his younger friends/self are actually highly veiled references to his own past.

We're left with "one event logically follows from another" - such as the creation of the alternate timeline as a result of events in the Prime timeline.

But the Abramsverse wasn't altered by events in the prime timeline. It was altered by events in its OWN timeline.

how can one arrive in a timeline whose very existence is dependent on one's actions subsequent to arrival?

You can't. The timeline would have to be pre-existing for you to travel to it in the first place.

You could say (without any actual evidence) the two universes were identical before Nero arrived and that the differences occurred at that point. It's still, however, a parallel universe to which he traveled, and it doesn't necessarily follow that they WERE identical in every respect.

Events originating in the Prime timeline created the alternate timeline

No. Again, the timelines supposedly diverged in 2233, not 2387. The latter would have been the case in, say, First Contact, where Enterprise is caught in the temporal wake of the time vortex and is "somehow" protected from the changes in the timestream; in effect, they FIRST enter an alternate timelime in which the Borg of conquered Earth, and THEN travel into the past of that timeline to alter that timeline.

They share a history prior to 2233, barring other time-travel shenanigans about which we don't have specifics. But the relevant "history" here is that the Abramsverse is a branching timeline which branched from the Prime.

Obviously. But we are not totally sure WHEN. NuSpock thinks it happened as a result of Nero's arrival, which is a fine theory, but he is not (and really, cannot) take into account all the OTHER time travel events that would have been effected by that event, mainly because he has no way of knowing about them or their significance.

In particular, the Enterprise in this timeline will never discover the breakaway timewarp equation; they will never travel back to the 60s and meet Gary Seven, which will have certain implications for human history through the 20th and 21st century. From Spock's point of view, those implications are already manifest, but he is in no position to realize that Nero is ultimately the cause, or that anything different might have happened at all.

That makes no sense at all. Would he really be that illogical? Why would the Prime timeline cease to exist because Nero destroyed a planet in the Abramsverse timeline?

It ceases to exist for Spock, because he is not IN the prime timeline. History cannot and will not unfold the way he remembers it, and even the events that originally caused him and Nero to travel into the past will never actually happen. The timeline, in other words, is history as the universe knows it. That history has now been erased.

He could, of course, have the Guardian of Forever zap him into a different timeline, or he could do a favor for Q, or his house could get sucked up in a tornado, or he could sip on a banana peel and fall into Quinn Mallory's wormhole experiment, any one of which might catapult him into an alternate reality. In doing so, Spock would literally change reality and history would unfold differently; Vulcan may exist again, or Vulcan may have been eaten by the planet killer, or Vulcan may have been putted into a black hole by Trelane in a fit of boredom. UNTIL he changes reality, only the timeline he is currently in is real.

Weren't you the one who was saying events in one timeline couldn't have an effect on the other?

Yes. I also said BECAUSE of this, only one timeline can be considered "real" from an individual's point of view.

They already happened.

No they didn't. Neither did the Bajoran conquest of Cardassia or the Borg assimilation of Earth. These things happened in OTHER realities that are not related to the Abramsverse. The Hobus event is only related inasmuch as its effects Nero mind, but the timeline is affected by Nero's ACTIONS, not his memories.

You mean they can't "re-happen" in the alternate timeline

No, I mean they can't happen. Any given event can only occur once in the linear timeline.

The existence of the Prime timeline is not somehow dependent on the Abramsverse timeline changing into the Prime timeline.

Indeed. That's because it is a PARALLEL timeline, and the two of them no longer have anything to do with each other. The primeline doesn't exist for NuSpock and NuKirk and arguably never did. Significantly, it doesn't exist for Spock Prime either, even if in his personal past it did until recently.

Their shared continuity can easily be seen given that the same character departs from one and turns up in the other.

Incorrect. Nero's memories are affected by what he experienced in the alternate timeline, but his memories are no longer consistent with reality. Under normal circumstances, that would make him delusional; in his case, it's not really his fault, because reality itself has actually been changed.

Case in point: Nero insists that Romulus HAS been destroyed. He saw it happen, he remembers it happening. But if he went to Romulus right now, he would see the reality that Romulus HAS NOT been destroyed, that it really is there, and that none of the things he remembers happening are real anymore. It would be the exact same situation if Spock ALONE had traveled back in time and destroyed Hobus and Nero, through a First Contact-style vortex, wound up in the altered reality with his original memories. From his point of view, the destruction of Romulus has ceased to be reality, because reality has now been altered; the only reason he continues to treat it as reality is because he is insane.

I use "overall continuity" and "multiverse" interchangeably

That's probably not such a good idea.