Kos was a true gentleman

[2takesfrakes]

No, I'm not thinking of Fan Reaction to this, or any ENT episode featuring Vulcan, or Vulcans. ENTERPRISE was just bad at it, that's all. And not just Vulcans, all aliens, in fact. And unfortunately, they cherrypicked all of the best from STAR TREK lore. As for Spock's smiling, for one thing, that was Fan Service. It doesn't belong in that episode, but what can be done? That was 50 years ago. Maybe CBS can digitally paint that smile out, frame-by-frame. It's not onscreen for long. Anyway, I completely understand the logic of Kos' actions, with regards to T'Pol. Kos is still played a little emotional for me, but at least he's low key.

 

[gblews]

No, I'm not thinking of Fan Reaction to this, or any ENT episode featuring Vulcan, or Vulcans. ENTERPRISE was just bad at it, that's all. And not just Vulcans, all aliens, in fact.

There were some badly done aliens in all of the spinoffs. Singling out Ent though, is your right.

And unfortunately, they cherrypicked all of the best from STAR TREK lore.

One could say that about all of the spinoffs.

As for Spock's smiling, for one thing, that was Fan Service. It doesn't belong in that episode, but what can be done? That was 50 years ago. Maybe CBS can digitally paint that smile out, frame-by-frame. It's not onscreen for long.

Seriously?

Sorry bro, its canon and the very human side of Spock that could not suppress that big smile ain't going anywhere. BTW, Amok Time is one of my favorite TOS episodes, partially because of Spock's big ole Vulcany reaction.

As for "Fan Service", back in the TOS days no such thing existed, at least not in the way you are using the term. Fan service, the way I understand the current use of the term, refers to things shown on screen calculated to get the fans all excited but that don't necessarily fit the episode, or character, or ship, or show, etc, in which it appears. There was no such thing back then. The show was new and there was no long history of Trek from which to draw things that would get the fans all excited.

Back then, Spock's grin wasn't considered anything especially unusual. Of course back then there weren't nearly as many "experts" on all things Star Trek.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Audience interest in Spock is what gave Nimoy an expanded part in this series. GR was also in cahoots with that one Fan President Bjo Trimble (sp.). I'm no STAR TREK expert. And even if I were, I'm going by reports that I can never independently confirm. But, when I see Spock smiling away at Kirk ... it's not for general audiences who smile with so little provocation. No, no ... that smile is for you, the Trek Fan. You know it ... and I know it.

And I completely agree, by the way, on how the other spinoffs had some really crappy takes on some (most ?) of the aliens. I love TNG, but the Romulans look like total shit. That's not the cast's fault ... it must've $aved money, somehow, because they really do look cheap.

The Vulcans have, to start with, at least, always been so regal and elegant in thoughts, words, deeds ... and appearance. To see ENTERPRISE putting some nappy wig on Kos and slapping puddy over half his eyebrows, instead of shaving them off, like Nimoy does ... it made it hard to watch, sometimes. Oh! And then to have Zora from BLADERUNNER as T'Pol's mother (!!!) only to have her in a crappy wig ... I tell you, these ENTERPRISE producers, they were the limit ...!!!

 

[gblews]

Audience interest in Spock is what gave Nimoy an expanded part in this series. GR was also in cahoots with that one Fan President Bjo Trimble (sp.).

And this has to do with...what?

But, when I see Spock smiling away at Kirk ... it's not for general audiences who smile with so little provocation. No, no ... that smile is for you, the Trek Fan. You know it ... and I know it.

No, that's not something I know. But you aren't the first Trek fan on ths site who has tried (unsuccessfully) to attempt to offer an "explanation" calculated to erase that scene in Amok Time from existance. Keep trying.

All I know is that Spock grinned because he was so glad that his friend had not sacrificed his life. Also, if you're ever in this discussion again, I'de go wiht the "he (Spock)was still suffering residuals of the "blood fever", even though it was obvious he wasn't. It sounds much better, and closer to making sense that "fan service".

The Vulcans have, to start with, at least, always been so regal and elegant in thoughts, words, deeds ... and appearance. To see ENTERPRISE putting some nappy wig on Kos and slapping puddy over half his eyebrows, instead of shaving them off, like Nimoy does ... it made it hard to watch, sometimes. Oh! And then to have Zora from BLADERUNNER as T'Pol's mother (!!!) only to have her in a crappy wig ... I tell you, these ENTERPRISE producers, they were the limit ...!!!

I thought the Ent Vulcans were the most interesting iteration of the characters since TOS. One of my big gripes with the Vulcans is that they usually are shown to be too powerful. They outlive us, they're stronger, smarter, more logical, they don't need as much sleep. This is the reason I was happy to see Ent show us some way less than perfect Vulcans. Much more interesting than what TNG (but props for Klingon exploration), DS9 (did okay with Kaardassians and Bajorans), Voy (gets props for their Borg exploration), did with Vulcans. Ent, gets the nod for exploration of Vulcan politics, culture and biology.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Audience interest in Spock is what gave Nimoy an expanded part in this series. GR was also in cahoots with that one Fan President Bjo Trimble (sp.).

And this has to do with...what?

Your earlier comment that "As for "Fan Service", back in the TOS days no such thing existed ..."

... that smile is for you, the Trek Fan. You know it ... and I know it.

... you aren't the first Trek fan on ths site who has tried (unsuccessfully) to attempt to offer an "explanation" ...

HA!!! "UNsuccessfully" ... just had to throw that in, didn't you? I'm still chuckling over that little number.

..."UNsuccessfully" ...

I thought the Ent Vulcans were the most interesting iteration of the characters since TOS. One of my big gripes with the Vulcans is that they usually are shown to be too powerful. They outlive us, they're stronger, smarter, more logical, they don't need as much sleep. This is the reason I was happy to see Ent show us some way less than perfect Vulcans.

Then, they shouldn't have had "Vulcan" episodes, if they weren't going to write them the way they "are." TOS Spock once referred to "Vulcan offshoots," in Paradise Syndrome, was it? That's what ENTERPRISE Vulcans come across to me as, something other than the Vulcans we already "know." And had T'Pol been from Vulcania, instead of Vulcan, I suspect fans would've been a lot happier with T'Pol and how her kin were portrayed. "Oh, but we writers just hate writing for non-emotional Vulcans - not dramatic enough. And it gives the actors something more passionate to work with ..." whatever, man.

 

[gblews]

I thought the Ent Vulcans were the most interesting iteration of the characters since TOS. One of my big gripes with the Vulcans is that they usually are shown to be too powerful. They outlive us, they're stronger, smarter, more logical, they don't need as much sleep. This is the reason I was happy to see Ent show us some way less than perfect Vulcans.

Then, they shouldn't have had "Vulcan" episodes, if they weren't going to write them the way they "are."

Here is the problem with the Vulcans; characters who are in complete control of their emotions provide little in the way of personal drama. If your show is a drama and you have some main characters who never show emotion, then you have a problem. Gene Rodenberry realized this and that is the reason he made Spock half human -- in order to be able to show the character reacting (with emotion, or struggling to control emotions) to dramatic situations. Rodenberry probably never dreamed that Trek fans would try to hold his Vulcan characters to an in-story ideal (total emotional control) that was merely a device to create drama.

The Ent writers did the same thing GR did but actually expanded the concept (emotional struggles) to include the Vulcan hierarchy. Showing the Vulcans as overemotional was explained by the fact that the Ent Vulcans had strayed from the teachings of Surak and the Vulcan leadership had gotten a bit too cozy with Romulans.

Just as GR did with Spock, the Ent writers had their Vulcan, T'Pol, in a lifetime fascination/struggle with emotional control. T'Pol in complete control of her emotions would not have been nearly a dramatic as the character we got. It is the same thing GR did with Spock, but he gets a pass, probably because he was the creator, but the Ent writers get chastised by "purists" who fail to understand or are just unable to look at the two shows objectively.

The Ent writers had a great idea. It is just too bad that so many fans didn't really understand what they were doing.

 

[2takesfrakes]

The Ent writers had a great idea. It is just too bad that so many fans didn't really understand what they were doing.

This fan understood! Always did understand ... just ... never appreciated it. That's all. It came off as complete rubbish. As long as CBS and/or Paramount holds the pink receipt for the STAR TREK franchise, we're going to get whatever the balls they feel like unleashing on us. That's the deal. I simply would've preferred that "they" accept Vulcan emotional control. But, as you pointed out, it's awkward to write for. Nobody wants to work that hard and they always come off with the justification argument of: "Who are we writing this for, the public, or the fans?" ... Next thing you know, we've got episodes like Rogue Planet, Twilight and A Night in Sickbay.

 

[Mister Spock]

I always assumed that the reason the Vulcans from Enterprise were different from the ones we saw in Star Trek was due to some sort of cultural revolution led by T'Pau and the other rebels.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

gblews, 2takesfrakes, since you two are mostly carrying this thread... be nice, okay?

Just as GR did with Spock, the Ent writers had their Vulcan, T'Pol, in a lifetime fascination/struggle with emotional control.

I thought this was an outstanding development to the T'Pol storyline, because the possibilities for exploring her struggles with emotions could have been as compelling as they were for Spock. "E2" had loads of setup for just that, but they just dropped it in Season 4, boo. I think the attempt to cram 4 seasons into S4 pushed a lot of interesting possibilities out the window.

I simply would've preferred that "they" accept Vulcan emotional control. But, as you pointed out, it's awkward to write for. Nobody wants to work that hard...

I beg to differ. Ask anyone who chose a tough or challenging career--including writing. Very few of them coast their way through the job. Working hard is part of the deal going in.

As for ENT Vulcans... I'm one of those who loved the idea that once upon a time, Vulcans were scheming, deceptive, power-grabby, and insecure about the advance of humanity, hiding their ambitions behind their emotional control. The Vulcan cognitive dissonance about logic vs. emotion has always fascinated me because of Spock, and I thought this was a cool way to explore it. It made for wonderful conflict, and we got to see them grow up a little en route to the race we would see in TOS. Part of the fun was seeing how the Vulcans (and the writers) rationalized their less-than-logical behavior.

 

[gblews]

I simply would've preferred that "they" accept Vulcan emotional control. But, as you pointed out, it's awkward to write for. Nobody wants to work that hard...

Apparently neither did Rodenberry because he gave himself an "out" too when it came to writing about Spock's emotional control; he made Spock half human so that his struggle with emotional control could always be a part of, and justified, in the story.

Gene did it again, essentially, when he created "Data" for TNG, another character who had total emotional control, yet still had issues with emotion. The TNG writers, just like Rodennberry's TOS staff, then found numerous ways of writing Data into emotional situations and then watching Data perform emotionally (partially through Brent Spiner's masterful acting) without actually displaying "real" human emotion. The two characters were two sides of the same coin, one could neither feel nor show emotion but wanted too, the other could feel and display emotion but DIDN'T want too.

Following the model created years earlier by Rodenberry himself, Berman and Braga created the Ent Vulcans including T'Pol, whose emotional lapses were explained by her being fascinated by human emotion from childhood. Kind of weak, but plausible enough.

My overall point is that the Ent Vulcans (out-of-story) were cut from the same cloth as Gene's TOS Vulcan, (out-of-story) Spock. All were designed to be dramatically viable by having their supposed total emotional control compromised in some way.

 

[2takesfrakes]

gblews, 2takesfrakes, since you two are mostly carrying this thread... be nice, okay?

But of course! I am quite a colourful character, am I not? I've no problem with gblews, I enjoy our banter about - STAR TREK - Enterprise. I'm just surprised that it is just us carrying the thread. I mean, I kind of noticed it, but didn't really pay attention. Especially when there's layer upon layer to investigate and analyze. Hard to believe this show's been over for like, a decade!

Just as GR did with Spock, the Ent writers had their Vulcan, T'Pol, in a lifetime fascination/struggle with emotional control.

I think the attempt to cram 4 seasons into S4 pushed a lot of interesting possibilities out the window.

- AGREED!!!

I simply would've preferred that "they" accept Vulcan emotional control. But, as you pointed out, it's awkward to write for. Nobody wants to work that hard...

I beg to differ. Ask anyone who chose a tough or challenging career--including writing. Very few of them coast their way through the job. Working hard is part of the deal going in.

Well ... I don't mean that they don't "work." I am just saying that writers are less concerned with telling a completely thought out storyline as they are with generating a completed script. So, you get these glaring lapses in logic, or gaping plot holes, and ... and so forth. But that's true for any series.

 

[2takesfrakes]

My overall point is that the Ent Vulcans (out-of-story) were cut from the same cloth as Gene's TOS Vulcan, (out-of-story) Spock. All were designed to be dramatically viable by having their supposed total emotional control compromised in some way.

... Understood & Confirmed! It's interesting to me, though, with that being the case, they didn't just focus on the Romulans. In fact, I don't think the Romulans have ever lived up to their reputation as being so very passionate and aggressive. They were a little too disciplined, I thought, even and especially, in ENTERPRISE.