Who comes out on top post-Dominion War?

[TheSubCommander]

The Klingons--I always theorized they had a HUGE stock of military vessels. But they probably used it all up by fighting so much.

I think that very likely. During TNG, they fought a Civil War. Then they fought the Cardassians, under Changeling-Martok. Then they went to war with the Federation. After that, they went to war as allies with the Feds, against the Dominion.

So, whatever stock pile they had, probably was diminished during those conflicts. In fact, one DS9 episode, I think it might have been Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges, a couple Federation Admirals even state the Klingons won't be in any condition to fight anytime soon, and of the 3 largest powers (Federation, Klingon, and Romulan) the Feds were the best off.

 

[vulcan redshirt]

The Breen probably didnt do too badly either. True they lost a fleet or two assisting the Dominion / Cardassia, but at the end of the war, unlike Cardassia, they did not seem to get their behinds handed to them on a plate. They would have gained valuable tech and supplied from the Dominion and also valuable battle experience against the Feds, Klingons and Romulans.

Wasn't a resurgent Breen part of the Typhon Pact in those novels? (admittedly I have not read these)

 

[jmampilly]

The Klingons--I always theorized they had a HUGE stock of military vessels. But they probably used it all up by fighting so much.

I think that very likely. During TNG, they fought a Civil War. Then they fought the Cardassians, under Changeling-Martok. Then they went to war with the Federation. After that, they went to war as allies with the Feds, against the Dominion.

So, whatever stock pile they had, probably was diminished during those conflicts. In fact, one DS9 episode, I think it might have been Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges, a couple Federation Admirals even state the Klingons won't be in any condition to fight anytime soon, and of the 3 largest powers (Federation, Klingon, and Romulan) the Feds were the best off.

I think the Romulans at a baseline are considered on par with the Federation and Klingons only because of excessive military funding. With the Federation woken up and Starfleet's military capabilities significantly improved, the Romulans are left in the dust.

 

[jmampilly]

I consider Abrams Trek to exist in a separate canon from 'our' Trek, so we don't necessarily have to take red goo black holes into account.

The Federation certainly came out the strongest of the comparable powers within the Federation area of space, although the Breen probably made out pretty damn well too. The Federation fleet was heavily damaged in the war, but they were in the best position to rebuild, AND they probably lapped up new members around the area from worlds under the rule of the many weakened powers and neutral powers shocked out of complacency. Think about it, you're on a world that was previously conquered by the Klingons, the Romulans, the Breen, whatever. They withdraw from your planet because they can't logistically afford to hold it anymore and need to rebuild. You think, hmm...Bajor was in the same situation we were. They cozied up to the Federation and look at them now. Hey Federation, can we join?

Also Bajor probably joined the Federation a few years after the end of the war, but they made out like bandits. Besides becoming an economic powerhouse, now everybody in the galaxy knows if you mess with Bajor the prophets will dead you quick.

Ferenginar also probably came out really strong. Besides being the biggest power in the quadrant not to stage a single battle on their soil, they must have made out like bandits selling planets the supplies they needed to rebuild. AND for the first time in decades they had a Nagus with a trustworthy reputation and could plausibly play the 'Oh you couldn't trust us before but NOW you can' card. Rom obviously wasn't going to be a smart businessman, but I bet he had smart businessmen behind the scenes telling him 'Hey, package the NEW Ferenginar as a product with you as the face of the planet, and we get a reputation do-over.'

Although its possible the Ferengi came out with greater influence, I doubt they were anywhere near the military, or even economic prowess of the Federation.

My own personal ranking of the post war world...

1. Federation
2. Romulans
3. Klingons
4. Breen

 

[Edit_XYZ]

jmampilly

You didn't consider the powers which didn't take part in the dominion war - such as the tholians, gorn or even ferengi. They most definitely increased their military spending - and their infrastructure was not affected by the war. They are the ones which gained the most power, relative to their previous position.

Also - the federation got pounded throughout the war - its infrastructure and economy included. You compare it with USA after WW2 when you should compare it with UK instead. One doesn't get stronger by being pounded for years, as happened with UK - as opposed to remaining untouched, fighting exclusively on foreign soil, as happened with USA.
The federation economic potential was diminished by the dominion war, not increased.

All this means, the federation position relative to the alpha quadrant non-combatants - indeed, its standing in general - was weakened by the war, not strengthened.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I believe the Admiral's reference to the Federation not being ready for another war was more an indication of civilian attitude towards further conflict rather than the Federation's military capabilities.

Possible, but the tone of his voice and the way Cardassia was portrayed then suggested them not being ready resource wise for a new conflict.

I just noticed the Admiral simply said "sustained conflict", without mentioning with who, which suggests they were in a bad state of readiness in general-- A superpower that's not ready for a sustained conflict at any given time -- is in a dangerous situation.

I think that very likely. During TNG, they fought a Civil War. Then they fought the Cardassians, under Changeling-Martok. Then they went to war with the Federation. After that, they went to war as allies with the Feds, against the Dominion.

So, whatever stock pile they had, probably was diminished during those conflicts. In fact, one DS9 episode, I think it might have been Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges, a couple Federation Admirals even state the Klingons won't be in any condition to fight anytime soon, and of the 3 largest powers (Federation, Klingon, and Romulan) the Feds were the best off.

It seems the Klingons had such a huge military, they seemed more prepared than the Federation to go to war at any moment (pre- Dominion War).

They definitely used up a lot of ships.

I'm not sure, but it was strongly implied that all they had left was 1500 ships to defend the border against the Dominion, since all the other allies's ships were down.


The strangest thing is that the powers that came out the worse after the war, may be the very ones to become major superpowers in a just a few short years.

Germany suffered a defeat in WWI and came back strong 21 years later to start WWII.

Russia, Japan, China suffered huge casualities, and now are considered superpowers.

Russia in particular had massive causalities and invasions, and yet ended up being the superpower to challenge the U.S just a few years later.

 

[jmampilly]

jmampilly

You didn't consider the powers which didn't take part in the dominion war - such as the tholians, gorn or even ferengi. They most definitely increased their military spending - and their infrastructure was not affected by the war. They are the ones which gained the most power, relative to their previous position.

Also - the federation got pounded throughout the war - its infrastructure and economy included. You compare it with USA after WW2 when you should compare it with UK instead. One doesn't get stronger by being pounded for years, as happened with UK - as opposed to remaining untouched, fighting exclusively on foreign soil, as happened with USA.
The federation economic potential was diminished by the dominion war, not increased.

All this means, the federation position relative to the alpha quadrant non-combatants - indeed, its standing in general - was weakened by the war, not strengthened.

A very valid point. However, I also agree with other people who posted that entities weakened by wars could become very powerful within a short period of time.

I also question the scope of devastation suffered by the Federation during the war. If I recall correctly, apart from Betazed, only Federation colonies bordering Cardassia and the wormhole were really devastated. I think it was Starfleet that really took a beating. I also argue that the Federation's economic prowess and shipbuilding capabilities were most definitely improved during the Dominion War. Although Starfleet itself took a severe beating, the Federation is in a better position postwar to rebuild Starfleet, with more ships and significantly better designs.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

jmampilly

Apart from Betazed, the narrow slice of the war we saw in DS9 contained several examples of the dominion attacking federation infrastructure/economy: A raid on a dilithium facility. Dax's mother (deep in federation space) having a shipment destroyed; more attacks on shipments. Vreenak's speech about the state of the federation. The breen attacking a civilian target - San Francisco - and nobody thinking the civilian nature of the target was in any way atypical, etc.
Meaning, the dominon - like any army whose leaders have 2 functioning brain cells - attacked the economic infrastructure of its enemy.
Considering the severity of the war and the bitch-slapping starfleet received until the romulans joined - the damage was not cosmetic, either.

And the examples Nightdiamond provided - Russia, Japan, China, Germany - became powerful post WW2 in spite of the infrasctructure/economic damage suffered during the war, not because of it:
- Russia relocated its heavy economy eastwards, managing to keep it intact despite the heavy losses (of all kinds) incurred. It came out of the war as a superpower because it was one of the winners - gaining large new territories under its influence.
- Japan recovered due to american help - and again, the losses suffered during the war were not in any way beneficial. Germany, ditto.
- China became prosperous due to economic reforms enacted decades after the war, taking it out of griding poverty.

And, jmampilly: no country whatsoever became economically more powerful while its infrastructure was ponded into dust - not ever. "the Federation's economic prowess and shipbuilding capabilities were most definitely improved during the Dominion War."?
Really? This particular brand of wishful thinking is blatantly contradicted by history (and fictional star trek canon).


jmampilly, you start from a conclusion you want to be true - the federation is more powerful post dominion war - and try to justify it. It's just that, your justifications don't hold up to scrutiny:
Starfleet had more ships? All powers in the alpha/beta quadrants ramped up starship construction, in order to fight in the war/in anticipation of the war expanding.
Starfleet ramped up its R&D budget? For one, the results were lacking (all seen types of ships/weaponry predated the war); for another, all powers increased their R&D budget (the dominon and the breen, with far more success than starfleet - long range tachyon scanners, etc).

The federation may - arguably, and not with the strongest of arguments - still be more powerful than the romulans (and klinons).
But the other alpha/beta powers - tholians, ferengi, etc - almost certainly significantly narrowed the gap in power between them and the federation.

And, of course, all these "powers" are really third rate nobodys by comparison with the likes of the borg or the gamma quadrant dominion.
Arguing about who's the strongest of the weaklings just so one can praise the federation - a decidedly fan-wanky discussion, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Bad Thoughts]

jmampilly

You didn't consider the powers which didn't take part in the dominion war - such as the tholians, gorn or even ferengi. They most definitely increased their military spending - and their infrastructure was not affected by the war. They are the ones which gained the most power, relative to their previous position.

Also - the federation got pounded throughout the war - its infrastructure and economy included. You compare it with USA after WW2 when you should compare it with UK instead. One doesn't get stronger by being pounded for years, as happened with UK - as opposed to remaining untouched, fighting exclusively on foreign soil, as happened with USA.
The federation economic potential was diminished by the dominion war, not increased.

All this means, the federation position relative to the alpha quadrant non-combatants - indeed, its standing in general - was weakened by the war, not strengthened.

UK actually did quite well after WW2. Much of its loss of market position came after WW1, so war production in this case allowed a small turn around: bombing was contained to certain areas of the country, production centers outside the south (UK's economy was very well decentralized) were emphasized, the government was positioned to rationalized production, and greater emphasis was placed on colonies. However, this last point ended up being a problem: manufacturing centers outside the British Isles themselves gained experience in production that enhanced those areas politically, effecting decolonization over the next several decades.

However, the larger point, that fighting and winning a war is not necessarily an economic boon, is essentially correct. It depends a lot on the specifics of the war, things that we don't get to see. Did the arms buildup lead to the creation of new shipyards in new areas of the Federation? Did the general population gain technical and scientific skills? Those are the question I would like to see answered.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

jmampilly

You didn't consider the powers which didn't take part in the dominion war - such as the tholians, gorn or even ferengi. They most definitely increased their military spending - and their infrastructure was not affected by the war. They are the ones which gained the most power, relative to their previous position.

Also - the federation got pounded throughout the war - its infrastructure and economy included. You compare it with USA after WW2 when you should compare it with UK instead. One doesn't get stronger by being pounded for years, as happened with UK - as opposed to remaining untouched, fighting exclusively on foreign soil, as happened with USA.
The federation economic potential was diminished by the dominion war, not increased.

All this means, the federation position relative to the alpha quadrant non-combatants - indeed, its standing in general - was weakened by the war, not strengthened.

UK actually did quite well after WW2.[..]

Not due to the war:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Econom...d_Kingdom#1945.E2.80.931951:_Age_of_Austerity
Due to economic reforms meant to help the country recover. And due to technological advances, etc (factors which increased the productivity of all advanced economies).

However, the larger point, that fighting and winning a war is not necessarily an economic boon, is essentially correct. It depends a lot on the specifics of the war, things that we don't get to see. Did the arms buildup lead to the creation of new shipyards in new areas of the Federation? Did the general population gain technical and scientific skills? Those are the question I would like to see answered.

As said, no country - ever - became whealthier while its infrasctructure was pounded into dust.
And was the case with the federation until the last stages of the war.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

^Yes, turning around the war economy was difficult ... in every country. By that standard, there were no winners, because each and every country faced some difficulty getting off financial steroids and reorienting toward the consumer market.

 

[jmampilly]

jmampilly

Apart from Betazed, the narrow slice of the war we saw in DS9 contained several examples of the dominion attacking federation infrastructure/economy: A raid on a dilithium facility. Dax's mother (deep in federation space) having a shipment destroyed; more attacks on shipments. Vreenak's speech about the state of the federation. The breen attacking a civilian target - San Francisco - and nobody thinking the civilian nature of the target was in any way atypical, etc.
Meaning, the dominon - like any army whose leaders have 2 functioning brain cells - attacked the economic infrastructure of its enemy.
Considering the severity of the war and the bitch-slapping starfleet received until the romulans joined - the damage was not cosmetic, either.

And the examples Nightdiamond provided - Russia, Japan, China, Germany - became powerful post WW2 in spite of the infrasctructure/economic damage suffered during the war, not because of it:
- Russia relocated its heavy economy eastwards, managing to keep it intact despite the heavy losses (of all kinds) incurred. It came out of the war as a superpower because it was one of the winners - gaining large new territories under its influence.
- Japan recovered due to american help - and again, the losses suffered during the war were not in any way beneficial. Germany, ditto.
- China became prosperous due to economic reforms enacted decades after the war, taking it out of griding poverty.

And, jmampilly: no country whatsoever became economically more powerful while its infrastructure was ponded into dust - not ever. "the Federation's economic prowess and shipbuilding capabilities were most definitely improved during the Dominion War."?
Really? This particular brand of wishful thinking is blatantly contradicted by history (and fictional star trek canon).


jmampilly, you start from a conclusion you want to be true - the federation is more powerful post dominion war - and try to justify it. It's just that, your justifications don't hold up to scrutiny:
Starfleet had more ships? All powers in the alpha/beta quadrants ramped up starship construction, in order to fight in the war/in anticipation of the war expanding.
Starfleet ramped up its R&D budget? For one, the results were lacking (all seen types of ships/weaponry predated the war); for another, all powers increased their R&D budget (the dominon and the breen, with far more success than starfleet - long range tachyon scanners, etc).

The federation may - arguably, and not with the strongest of arguments - still be more powerful than the romulans (and klinons).
But the other alpha/beta powers - tholians, ferengi, etc - almost certainly significantly narrowed the gap in power between them and the federation.

And, of course, all these "powers" are really third rate nobodys by comparison with the likes of the borg or the gamma quadrant dominion.
Arguing about who's the strongest of the weaklings just so one can praise the federation - a decidedly fan-wanky discussion, wouldn't you agree?

There were no doubt hundreds of Federation worlds that went unscathed. The vast majority of Dominion attacks occured around the outer edges of the Federation. Earth, Vulcan, Andor, they all went completely unscathed during the conflict. Hundreds of other similarly populated and industrially developed worlds suffered no damage whatsoever. And as far as Starfleet goes, they definitely improved. The Starfleet that attacks Cardassia in the final episode of DS9 is vastly more advanced than the Starfleet of TNG. Notice that the invasion of Cardassia shows ships like Galaxies and Akiras, vs. the Mirandas we saw at the beginning. Starfleet's personnel are also war-hardened veterans instead of a bunch of scientists.

I am not trying to justify a solution I want, I am justifying the the solution I am convinced is true.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

jmampilly

The other powers in the alpha/beta quadrants also have hundreds of planets belonging to their respective civilisation. And many said powers never took part in the dominion war.
Also, your assumption that only federation worlds near the border were hit is unsubstantiated - indeed, contradicted by the snippets we heard (shipments destroyed nowhere near the border, dilithium facilities hit nowhere near the border, etc).

About starfleet having better ships by war's end - the evidence is rather unconvincing (a few scenes at the end of the show, showing throwing at the dominion the best it had to offer; but nowhere near the entirety - or even a representative fraction - of the fleet). Even assuming starfleet emphasized the building of its newer models of ships, this gives it no advantage over the other powers. Starfleet merely played catch-up.
Ditto about the battle training of its troops (the pre-dominion war training/readiness of starfleet personnel was rather pathetic).

Pel the Yeshiva Ferengi

Economically, USA won enormously from WW2 - because it didn't fight said war on its territory. No rebuilding necessary there.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Economically, USA won enormously from WW2 - because it didn't fight said war on its territory. No rebuilding necessary there.

Not in dispute. However, the US economy was not without its difficulties transitioning from war to peacetime economy. The end of rationing brought about a situation of lots of capital in consumer hands and not sufficient consumer goods to satisfy desires. Most of the money went into real estate, creating a bubble that burst (recession) in 1948-49.

Now, the fact that the US came out on top does not describe what was going on in the UK, which only fought some of the war on a small portion of its soil. There were economic issues, most importantly that older factories and rails were never replaced with newer ones, but were instead overrun until damaged. However, coming out of the war, UK was positioned far above the continental powers, save USSR, and had the political (and even some economic) capital to affect the postwar outcome. It was how they dealt with the postwar settlement, particularly walking away from American efforts to rebuild the continental economy, that made the difference to Britain down the line.

 

[jmampilly]

jmampilly

The other powers in the alpha/beta quadrants also have hundreds of planets belonging to their respective civilisation. And many said powers never took part in the dominion war.
Also, your assumption that only federation worlds near the border were hit is unsubstantiated - indeed, contradicted by the snippets we heard (shipments destroyed nowhere near the border, dilithium facilities hit nowhere near the border, etc).

About starfleet having better ships by war's end - the evidence is rather unconvincing (a few scenes at the end of the show, showing throwing at the dominion the best it had to offer; but nowhere near the entirety - or even a representative fraction - of the fleet). Even assuming starfleet emphasized the building of its newer models of ships, this gives it no advantage over the other powers. Starfleet merely played catch-up.
Ditto about the battle training of its troops (the pre-dominion war training/readiness of starfleet personnel was rather pathetic).

Pel the Yeshiva Ferengi

Economically, USA won enormously from WW2 - because it didn't fight said war on its territory. No rebuilding necessary there.

Only a small portion of the fleet? By the time of the Federation attack on Cardassia Prime, Starfleet had had two years to redeploy ships from other Federation borders to the Dominion front. Given the importance of victory in Cardassia, the ships seen in Cardassia would no doubt have been representative of the fleet's general look.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

jmampilly

The footage from 'What you leave behind' shows a relatively small number of starfleet ships:
A rather small fraction of the starfleet fleet attacking the dominion lines; and this fleet is only a fraction (considering the nature of its mission, comprised of the best starfleet had to offer) of starfleet (which did NOT sent all its ships to attack the dominion lines).
As said, the WYLB footage proves little.

If you want compare ship types, look at what ship types the klinons/romulans/etc used in that engagement. The best they had.

And also, as said, even assuming starfleet built more newer ships/etc gives it no advantage over any alpha/beta quadrant power which increased its military budget (most of which did so - due to there being a massive war going on nearby).


Sloan made the post-war strategic situation of the big 3 powers pretty clear in IAESL: the klingons were severely weakened and the federation and romulans were neck in neck.
To this, you can add an increase in relative power for all alpha/beta quadrant political entities which did not participate in the costly dominion war.
FAR from your wished for federation superiority.

Pel the Yeshiva Ferengi

It seems we largely agree. The UK was, of course, in a far better economic position than the continental states, on whose territory the war was mostly fought.
And yes, even in USA, etc there were economic problems. The current recession is ample proof we don't yet know how to made an economic system stable. Especially when transitioning between very different states such as war/peace time.

 

[jmampilly]

jmampilly

The footage from 'What you leave behind' shows a relatively small number of starfleet ships:
A rather small fraction of the starfleet fleet attacking the dominion lines; and this fleet is only a fraction (considering the nature of its mission, comprised of the best starfleet had to offer) of starfleet (which did NOT sent all its ships to attack the dominion lines).
As said, the WYLB footage proves little.

If you want compare ship types, look at what ship types the klinons/romulans/etc used in that engagement. The best they had.

And also, as said, even assuming starfleet built more newer ships/etc gives it no advantage over any alpha/beta quadrant power which increased its military budget (most of which did so - due to there being a massive war going on nearby).


Sloan made the post-war strategic situation of the big 3 powers pretty clear in IAESL: the klingons were severely weakened and the federation and romulans were neck in neck.
To this, you can add an increase in relative power for all alpha/beta quadrant political entities which did not participate in the costly dominion war.
FAR from your wished for federation superiority.

Pel the Yeshiva Ferengi

It seems we largely agree. The UK was, of course, in a far better economic position than the continental states, on whose territory the war was mostly fought.
And yes, even in USA, etc there were economic problems. The current recession is ample proof we don't yet know how to made an economic system stable. Especially when transitioning between very different states such as war/peace time.

I feel confused now as to what we are debating. Are you arguing that the Federation was in fact not the most powerful entity in the Alpha Quadrant postwar, or simply that the other smaller entities, like the Tholians and Breen are simply closer to Federation strength now?

 

[Edit_XYZ]

jmampilly

Both, actually.

You started this thread by asking who came out on top post dominion war. The obvious answer is the gamma quadrant dominion.
Then - due to not liking the answer - you restricted the scope of the discussion to the alpha/beta quadrants - inhabited, as per canon, by a multitude of fictional political entities; none of which unambiguously came out on top.

 

[jmampilly]

jmampilly

Both, actually.

You started this thread by asking who came out on top post dominion war. The obvious answer is the gamma quadrant dominion.
Then - due to not liking the answer - you restricted the scope of the discussion to the alpha/beta quadrants - inhabited, as per canon, by a multitude of fictional political entities; none of which unambiguously came out on top.

You'll notice that no one else said the Dominion came out on top, because the thread's question very obviously indicates the reference to Alpha/Beta Quadrant powers only. Its very obvious that, including Gamma Quadrant powers, the Dominion obviously comes out on top.

 

[bbjeg]

IMO Out of the Alpha Quadrant powers the rankings are:

1. Federation
2. Romulan Star Empire
3. Klingon Empire
4. Breen Confederacy
5. Tholian Assembly
6. Gorn Hegemony
7. Ferengi
8. Bajoran Provisional Government
9. Cardassian Union

Plus, the Federation has that God Mode tech that Janeway brought back. I'd say the Federation is the strongest in the galaxy, above the Borg and Dominion.