In the main, I agree with this. However, the title of the painting, Gallifrey Falls No More would seem to suggest that history had changed because "No More" suggests that it orginally had fallen. But, agree, and I think it was brilliant, because it totally recast what we and the Doctor thought we knew. Changed the future course of the character and show without changing what we saw in previous seasons. Mr Awe
When I was finally able to take in the episode I stroked my beard and said "Very clever Mr. Moffat. Very clever indeed."
Then you'll be pleased to see this: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation_-_Doctor_Who:_Assimilation² Or, from a more Who-centric perspective: http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Assimilation²
The point of the argument is not how it serves the story. It is simply to establish if this was what always happened or if this was a timeline that was changed. We all know that it preserves the Doctor's emotional arc so lets get back to the point we were discussing... I disagree. I think it suggests he'll only remember the original timeline event and not the newly formed one.
That's just it -- I don't want to. This has reached the point where it's clear neither side is going to be convinced, so any further debate will just be circular restatements of what's already been said, accomplishing nothing. So I'd rather step back and change the subject than escalate for no reason.
Not my intention to escalate anything. This is the internet. We debate this stuff all the time. But that's fine with me. If anyone else wants to join in with this debate or has another point to bring up that I overlooked or some interview with the Moff that explains which is right then please do!
Perhaps but the painting could orginally have been known as Gallifrey Falls, at some point after the events of TDOTD it got changed to Gallifrey Falls No More. For example the Doctor (post TDTOD) vistis a musem and is told the picture is called Gallifrey Falls, and he could say "No More. Gallifrey Falls No More"
I'm sure some other sci-fi show has done something like this before. A starfleet type crew but they were more scavengers selling what they found in space. Was a slight parody on trek.
Yes, this is what I was saying. However, I do think the preponderance of the evidence suggests that the timeline wasn't changed. Mr Awe
Gallifrey falling in another timeline doesn't mean that it was changed by the Doctor here. There's a reason it's called the time war, and time locks or no time locks, I am sure it has fallen in multiple timelines yet to be explored for centuries in multiple future shows. That being said, it's clear that "Gallifrey Falls No More" is intended to be read literally – it was falling because of the attack of the Daleks, and the attack was cleverly prevented. "No more" refers to a first grade future, untainted by time travel and meta-time, and "falls" refers to the present state of falling that ceased. How you'd interpret it is a whole different story, of course. But beware, the showrunners will be more inventive than you. Your interpretation of it will always be false, authors are more crazy.
Perhaps I should have been clearer. You said "In the main, I agree with this. However, the title of the painting, Gallifrey Falls No More would seem to suggest that history had changed because "No More" suggests that it orginally had fallen." I was trying to point out that just because the paintings name changed doesn't mean history was changed. As far as the universe was concerned Gallifrey fell, It's name could have been corrected after the events of TDOTD, So at some point in his future timeline the Dcotor could travel back in time to a period were it was believed Gallifrey had fallen, and make a comment "No More" based on his past.
^ No, if the name of the painting changed then by definition the history changed because the name of the painting is part of history. But, it's not really a big deal to me. The two titles being combined into one was probably more for fun and interest than a true plot point. The story had been resolved by that point. Mr Awe
The name of the painting didn't change, it was just misreported. People thought the two halves of the phrase were alternate titles, when in fact they were a single continuous title. Indeed, perhaps the true title was deliberately misreported (by the Curator?) in order to conceal Gallifrey's survival from the universe at large. It's amazing how much you can mislead people just by nuancing how you report something.
There's clear evidence that suggests that history has changed. Among them, the Gallifrey painting that originally only had the War Doctor, but afterwards had the Tenth and Eleventh in them, so as to get out of the painting and return to present day. Really, there's nothing conclusive to suggest that time hasn't changed. In fact, the most accurate thing to say is, that there's evidence to both sides.
If all of Gallifrey is being in that particular painting, it would explain why the Curator needs to be the most dangerous man in the universe.