In film at least, those Batman wannabes at the beginning of The Dark Knight were costumed, but not super.
Is Daredevil Closer to a "costumed hero" or a "superhero"
- Thread starter sonak
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In film at least, those Batman wannabes at the beginning of The Dark Knight were costumed, but not super.
All costumed heroes are superheroes. And even a few without costumes.
I don't know if I'd go that far. Non-comics costumed heroes like Zorro are generally not considered superheroes.
The thing is, the very word "superhero" is a back-formation from the name Superman. So the word was coined to mean "a character like Superman." Superhero status, as I've been saying all along, isn't just a factor of some single trait, but is about being part of the distinct character type and cultural category that originated with Superman. Granted, the definition of a superhero has broadened a lot since then, but it's all still grown from that beginning, from that network of associations.
So while there isn't a clear dividing line, I don't think all costumed heroes are necessarily superheroes. There's a fuzzy but incomplete overlap between them.
Well he did specify "comic book world".
The Batman wannabes I mentioned weren't exactly heroes of any kind, though arguably they were trying on some level.
I was debating that. I was going to bring up the Lone Ranger. To me, he's a superhero and I'm not sure why Zorro wouldn't be.
I've never heard the Lone Ranger called a superhero before. He was a pretty conventional Western hero aside from the mask and secret identity. I'd call him more a conceptual ancestor of the superhero genre. The Scarlet Pimpernel, Zorro, and the Lone Ranger were among the archetypal masked heroes with dual or secret identities, and that was one of the tropes that the creators of the first superheroes used as an ingredient.
The Lone Ranger used a gun, so isn't a superhero. Zorro verges on superhero but the upperclass duellist aspect seems to predominate. Scarlet Pimpernel, I find my memory isn't reliable on him at all.
The gun (or period equivalent) is a good practical demarcation separating the "super" heroes from the others. Mrs. Peel et al. have the same skill sets that supposedly keep Batman/Green Arrow/Black Canary/Black Widow from getting blown away. But
no one wants to call them superheroes.
The gun (or period equivalent) is a good practical demarcation separating the "super" heroes from the others. Mrs. Peel et al. have the same skill sets that supposedly keep Batman/Green Arrow/Black Canary/Black Widow from getting blown away. But
no one wants to call them superheroes.
That's because Mrs. Peel is a spy. She uses the skill set in different genre.
The Lone Ranger, like superhero archers, tends to shoot to disarm or wound. As Christopher mentioned he's superhero prototype like Robin Hood, Zorro and the Scarlet Pimpernel.
Zorro was a Robin Hood type helping the poor and down trodden. As Don Diego he pretended to weakling and wastrel
Similarly,as Sir Percy, the Pimpernel pretended to be a fop and playboy. His mission to help those sentenced to death in post Revolution France.
As you can tell both were a major influence on the secret identity concept.
Somerset Maugham and Eric Ambler are spinning in their graves.
And John LeCarre is probably desperately sticking a nitroglycerin tablet under his tongue. Alan Furst and Edward Wilson are no doubt swigging Pepto-Bismol. Seriously, the movie Romanoff has Mrs. Peel DNA.
The thing is, characters like The Four Horsemen in Now You See Me don't have any skills or character any different from superheroes. It's just that their fictional universe doesn't make it plain that they are so super they don't need guns like us ordinary mortals. This thread can't settle on the differences between superheroes and regular heroes or costumed heroes because it keeps trying to limit the discussion to superheroes.
Thinking about it, maybe the toughest case is Allan Quatermain. I don't think anyone will accept him as a superhero, even though in the end he apparently had a superpower! I suppose Quatermain's most popular descendant would be Doc Savage and he's not a superhero either.
Speaking of guns and early heroes that may or may not be superheroes, how about The Shadow? He has psychic powers from what I recall (knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men and all that), but he used guns. He isn't an antihero like Punisher, clearly. Maybe an ante hero, though 
Thoughts?
Thoughts?
The Shadow is a pulp hero, another of the ancestors of the superhero. But the distinction between them is that pulp heroes tend to be quite violent, while superheroes quickly evolved in a more kid-friendly, nonlethal direction. (There's a whole "Batman used to use guns" meme out there, but it's an exaggeration. In his first few issues he occasionally wielded guns on covers and non-story splash pages, or to shoot at machines and the like, and on one occasion he shot a vampire with a silver bullet; but there was only one instance where he used guns to kill humans -- strafing a truck from the Batplane and killing its drivers -- and it provoked an immediate editorial crackdown forbidding him from using lethal force ever again. That was less than a year into the character's existence.)
For me, one of the key distinctions of superheroes is their moral code, which is why I don't count the Punisher among their number.
For me, one of the key distinctions of superheroes is their moral code, which is why I don't count the Punisher among their number.
Speaking of guns and early heroes that may or may not be superheroes, how about The Shadow? He has psychic powers from what I recall (knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men and all that), but he used guns. He isn't an antihero like Punisher, clearly. Maybe an ante hero, though
The Shadow is indeed a hero and he is a hero with a superpower. And he has a distinctive dress, i.e., costume. Yet he isn't regarded as a superhero. I'd say the gun rule holds up very well in this test case.
But the remarks on Batman using guns reminds me that the gun rule may also work not just as a touchstone to identify "super" despite the absence of an official in-universe superpower. The absence of guns has been impelled by a distaste for showing murders to children as entertainment, i.e., a moral code.
PS "Ante-hero" is great.
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I'm glad Christopher brought up the Hellcat, because her story does have a bearing on how costumed heroes vs. superheroes operate in comics, or at least how they did in the mid-1970's. The issue where Patsy Walker puts on the Cat's costume and becomes the Hellcat, is this one. I have it in one of my boxes in the basement, which means I can't easily refer to it. However, IIRC (and it's been decades), they're in some sort of situation when it's tactically advantageous for her to at least appear to be a superhero. I think I recall that, in at least one frame, Walker expresses concern that she has no superpowers.
http://marvel.wikia.com/Patricia_Walker_(Earth-616) says:
http://marvel.wikia.com/Patricia_Walker_(Earth-616) says:
Here's the scene where Patsy first dons the costume:
http://goodcomics.comicbookresource...-men-comic-book-moments-debut-of-the-hellcat/
It also features flashbacks of Patsy's history of association with the superhero community, so it's a good summary of her transition from romance-comic character to superhero-comic character.
http://goodcomics.comicbookresource...-men-comic-book-moments-debut-of-the-hellcat/
It also features flashbacks of Patsy's history of association with the superhero community, so it's a good summary of her transition from romance-comic character to superhero-comic character.
Thanks! Major flashback. My memory was off, because she was actually into it. There was concern expressed, but not by her.
Interesting. As I said back on page 1, I wouldn't consider the Lone Ranger a superhero because he has no powers or technology not available to other people in that time and place. Aside from the mask, he wasn't much different from the Gene Autry type hero, though his serials didn't have the musical and comedic stuff. The bad guys weren't much different, either, though during the war the Ranger and Tonto started fighting an organized, anti-American subversive group, the Legion of the Black Arrow.
Speaking of guns and early heroes that may or may not be superheroes, how about The Shadow? He has psychic powers from what I recall (knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men and all that), but he used guns. He isn't an antihero like Punisher, clearly. Maybe an ante hero, though
The psychic thing was introduced for radio, but originally he was just a kind of stealthy, avenging... I would say weirdo.
I'd say the Shadow and a lot of pulp heroes are basically just vigilantes. Or "costumed vigilantes."
You know, ultimately, there's a huge difference between putting a label on something and understanding it. When we get too fixated on what labels to stick on things or what boxes to shove them into, we get distracted from what they really are as individual entities. So any discussion of labels and categories should be looked at a bit askance and not mistaken for defining the true meaning of anything.
You know, ultimately, there's a huge difference between putting a label on something and understanding it. When we get too fixated on what labels to stick on things or what boxes to shove them into, we get distracted from what they really are as individual entities. So any discussion of labels and categories should be looked at a bit askance and not mistaken for defining the true meaning of anything.
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