The Night Of The Doctor

[Mark_Nguyen]

Would the Beeb ever fund something like a web series though.. But hell, this one minisode is arguably better than any of the ones Matt Smith has done in the dozen or so that he filmed! Except maybe Time/Space. Two Amys are tough to beat...

I effectively have this clip on a repeating loop here at work. It's just amazing to hear AND see Paul McGann again. This minisode just leaves us screaming for more, and what actor doesn't love that feeling... What a birthday present for him!

Mark

 

[Lonemagpie]

Actually, going into the special, we now have the situation that:

Hurt is the 9th incarnation, if not technically "the Doctor"

Eccles is the 10th

Tennant is the 11th, but he also used up a regeneration in The Stolen Earth, so technically

Metacrisis Tennant is an abortive 12th, or what would have been the 12th,

Which would then make Smith the 13th...

If you choose to view it that way and go strictly by the limit established as a retcon in The Deadly Assassin.

 

[Christopher]

Spoiler: questions

Clearly a younger Hurt version then. So he's still "#8" due to the potion?

Here's the thing. The key is what was established at the end of "The Name of the Doctor": That there's an incarnation in his past that he doesn't count as a "Doctor," because for that incarnation he renounced that identity. That was reinforced here when the Eighth Doctor said there was no more room for a Doctor and it was time for a warrior instead. Thus Moffat could retcon a new incarnation into his past without changing the count of Doctors. Since his ninth life doesn't count as "the Doctor," that means that his tenth life was the Ninth Doctor, his eleventh life was the Tenth Doctor, and his twelfth incarnation is the Eleventh Doctor. That's the semantic trick Moffat took advantage of to retcon an extra life into the Doctor's past without contradicting prior dialogue.

It also means that Capaldi will be the last Doctor in his standard regeneration cycle -- which is interesting, because the Valeyard from "The Key to Time" reportedly split off between the Doctor's twelfth and final incarnations, and that transition is set to occur next month in the Christmas special. And we got a name drop for the Valeyard in "The Name of the Doctor," and we can see from this minisode that Moffat is not shying away from checking off the continuity boxes. So we may see something interesting happen at Christmas.

(Note: I don't think the abortive "metacrisis" regeneration in "Journey's End" counts against the cycle. As the Doctor explained it, he used the regeneration energy for healing and then shunted it off into his spare hand before it actually began regenerating him.)

 

[wamdue]

Actually, going into the special, we now have the situation that:

Hurt is the 9th incarnation, if not technically "the Doctor"

Eccles is the 10th

Tennant is the 11th, but he also used up a regeneration in The Stolen Earth, so technically

Metacrisis Tennant is an abortive 12th, or what would have been the 12th,

Which would then make Smith the 13th...

If you choose to view it that way and go strictly by the limit established as a retcon in The Deadly Assassin.

that is how I see it.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

ON EDIT.. I didn't reply fast enough, but this was directed at Samurai's comment...

^^ Is that the official explination, and I misunderstood what happened on screen or just supposition? I fear this will be a new "hot debate" topic around fandom... I read into this as he was dead.. The sisters brought him back just long enough to he could regenerate as he normally would... And then they juiced him up with some magic potion so that the regeneration could be controlled to give him the OOOMPH he needed to end the war..

Dammit, now I'm confused..

I think it's clear John Hurt is a new regeneration. They explicitly say that the potion "will trigger your regeneration" so it's a bit of a stretch to say it just changed his appearance.

Rather, they're making it clear that they're distinguishing incarnation and Doctor. Eccleston is still the 9th Doctor. But he's also the 10th incarnation of the individual who normally calls himself the Doctor (and whose name we do not know).

Anyway, that was really cool. It's the first time I actually saw Paul McGann as the Doctor and I thought it worked well (it inspired me to go see the movie just now). Definitely very fun and a build up to the anniversary. Yes, the anniversary is dealing predominantly with the plot point of the new incarnation of the series, but McGann did a great job bridging that gap.

Tennant is the 11th, but he also used up a regeneration in The Stolen Earth, so technically

That's the only thing I disagree with. I think that, rather than use up a regeneration, he was able to deflect the energy outward into his hand in a way that didn't kill him. It's a bit handwavy and arguably a cop out, but I don't think the point was to use up a whole regeneration.

We'll find out soon enough in the Christmas special because it'll matter whether or not Capaldi is the last regeneration or Smith is.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

(Note: I don't think the abortive "metacrisis" regeneration in "Journey's End" counts against the cycle. As the Doctor explained it, he used the regeneration energy for healing and then shunted it off into his spare hand before it actually began regenerating him.)

What matters, though, is what Moffat thinks counts.

I would rather the abortive regeneration not count. I'd like to see the Doctor grapple with his impending mortality in more than just a single Christmas episode.

And the whole thing with the hand raises the question -- why doesn't the Doctor chop off a body part and keep it alive and on ice after every regeneration? It would be a handy thing to keep around.

Of course, it raises the other question -- how did he know it would work?

 

[davejames]

Hurt may technically be the ninth incarnation, but I think it's pretty obvious that Moffat wanted us to view this as a separate thing, and not one of the official regenerations.

So I'm perfectly fine still seeing Smith as the Eleventh Doctor, and Capaldi as the Twelfth.

 

[Saul]

Would the Beeb ever fund something like a web series though..

Mark

Considering how well this has turned out and the 100% positive reaction. Would they be foolish enough NOT to capitalize on this?


As for Meta Doctor. That Regeneration energy gave birth to a new life. So in my mind that might count as a regeneration.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Moffat talks about why and how "The Name of the Doctor" came to be.

 

[ParticleMan]

I don't remember where I read it (maybe in a thread here somewhere?) but didn't Moffat imply that 10's vanity was going to impact 11 and his regeneration? Maybe 10's "vanity" was wanting to keep his form when he should have fully regenerated in Journey's End?

 

[Photoman15]

I am not well versed on older WHO. How many times was the 12 regen limit mentioned?

 

[ParticleMan]

Moffat talks about why and how "The Name of the Doctor" came to be.

Moffat says this at the end:

The completist in me… the ‘box set man’ in me wants every box ticked and I wanted every regeneration scene! And we get to see the Paul McGann Doctor regenerate into the John Hurt Doctor! I love regeneration episodes – there’s nothing more exciting! And in the anniversary year we get to see two regenerations… That’s pretty cool!

Part of me hopes this is foreshadowing that we will see the Hurt-Eccleston regeneration, even if Eccleston isn't present in person...but then he makes the point that we get *two* regenerations this year...but then again, Moffat lies...

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I am not well versed on older WHO. How many times was the 12 regen limit mentioned?

Off-hand...

It was introduced in "The Deadly Assassin." It's a plot point in "The Five Doctors" (the Time Lords' offer to the Master) and "The Twin Dilemma" (Azmael's attempt at a fourteenth incarnation). And the final two parts of "Trial of a Time Lord."

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

Lots of times. Starting with the Fourth Doctor adventure "The Deadly Assassin", which does contradict earlier implications (but not statements) that the Doctor was more than four incarnations old at that point, including ironically "The Brain of Morbius" which forms the basis of this minisode. It's brought up several times since then, notably in reference to the Master, as he'd used up his allocation (and then some) by that point. The last time it was directly referenced was the 1996 TV Movie we're fangasming about today.

Mark

 

[Captain_Amasov]

I am not well versed on older WHO. How many times was the 12 regen limit mentioned?

Off the top of my head: The Deadly Assassin; Mawdryn Undead; and the TV Movie. There are others, but these were ones where the limit appears as a plot point in the stories.

 

[Lonemagpie]

I would rather the abortive regeneration not count.

So would I- but I've seen quotes from TPTB both ways.

If it doesn't count, then, like I said before, Twelfth Night is the fucking ideal title for the Xmas special and the handover from Smith to Capaldi.

 

[Sindatur]

Moffat talks about why and how "The Name of the Doctor" came to be.

Moffat says this at the end:

The completist in me… the ‘box set man’ in me wants every box ticked and I wanted every regeneration scene! And we get to see the Paul McGann Doctor regenerate into the John Hurt Doctor! I love regeneration episodes – there’s nothing more exciting! And in the anniversary year we get to see two regenerations… That’s pretty cool!

Part of me hopes this is foreshadowing that we will see the Hurt-Eccleston regeneration, even if Eccleston isn't present in person...but then he makes the point that we get *two* regenerations this year...but then again, Moffat lies...

Well, if there's 3 (McGann to Hurt; Hurt to Eccelston; Smith to Capaldi), that wouldn't make "We get to see two Regenerations in The Anniversary Year" a lie, because 3 has 2 as part of it, and the Quote doesn't say "ONLY" two

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Hurt may technically be the ninth incarnation, but I think it's pretty obvious that Moffat wanted us to view this as a separate thing, and not one of the official regenerations.

Well, I think that's why they're making the clear distinction between "Doctor" and "incarnation." I don't think anyone has ever said "the 9th incarnation" before (or it's been done rarely). Matt Smith is the 11th Doctor and nothing in this upcoming episode will change that.

However, for regeneration caps, it does make a big difference. I get the impression that Moffat wants to deal with this during his tenure before the torch gets passed.

I am not well versed on older WHO. How many times was the 12 regen limit mentioned?

Off-hand...

It was introduced in "The Deadly Assassin." It's a plot point in "The Five Doctors" (the Time Lords' offer to the Master) and "The Twin Dilemma" (Azmael's attempt at a fourteenth incarnation). And the final two parts of "Trial of a Time Lord."

It's also a major plot point of the TV movie (and gets mentioned probably four or five times throughout it).

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

So they shot this as part of the production block of "Day of the Doctor", on the final two days of shooting the anniversary story. Not surprising then that the Eighth Doctor's TARDIS in the background is scuffed up EXACTLY as it was seen in the recent trailer - although the truncated opening sequence (and presumably the earlier exterior shots) uses the same CG model as the Eleventh's. Look it up, fellow nerds.

http://youtu.be/7z6FMCqYrBo

While I doubt we'll see more McGann as part of the fiftieth, I'm just so happy that the actor, and his era, are bookended with this. We see his genesis and his final bow - it's like picking up a book knowing the first and last pages are indeed there. Only missing the true beginning of the ninth then, and we only wonder if Moffatt wants to tick that box off too.

Mark

PS - unless people want to see the early days of the First Doctor, but that seems much further down on the list for some reason...

PPS - "Fat or Thin, Young or Old..." That's a call back to "The War Games", is it not?

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

As far as inarnations go, we still have to consider all the regenergy Melody/River gave him.

Regenergy....that's a funny word.