Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

[Timewalker]

Berman Trek Magic Blood.

The Doctor pronounces Neelix dead, but Seven proposes a revival procedure using nanoprobes from her bloodstream. After discussing it with the Doctor and Captain Janeway, Janeway orders the Doctor to proceed, even though Neelix has been dead for 18 hours. Seven quickly modifies and administers the nanoprobes, they proceed, and after some touch and go, Neelix is revived. He has no recollection of what happened and where he has been and wonders why he is in sickbay.

Gee that sounds familiar. Like I saw it in a movie recently.

Nanoprobes, not blood.

McCoy doesn't mention anything about blood composition. Besides, Original Khan and nuKhan are not the same people.

He doesn't have to. The human healing process centers around blood. Khan was seconds away from death in "Space Seed", that he could recover quickly and completely without McCoy lifting finger means he has "magic blood".

Original Khan and nuKhan are the same people. Khan comes from before the timeline split in 2233.

Yep. Khan and nuKhan are identical in every way. How could I possibly have missed that they're twins? Obviously I failed to notice that they're of the same ethnic background! Of course a caucasian guy with an accent that reminds me of Alan Rickman is really somebody who was born in India!

Naturally, there are NO actors on the whole damn planet who they could have found to play the part of Khan Noonian Singh without having to mumble something like, "Well, y'see I was adopted..."

Conversely, the addition of Khan's "super blood" has no similar retroactive impact on Space Seed or Wrath of Khan, and actually ties in neatly to Arik Soong's comments to Jonathan Archer about how the repressed genetic engineering technology could have saved Archer's father during the ENT Augment trilogy, and how the genetically engineered are free of illness and live 3 times longer than humans.

I never saw this part of Enterprise.

 

[BigJake]

Gee that sounds familiar. Like I saw it in a movie recently.

Except that is rather an instance of defending a nuTrek trope by comparing it to an extremely terrible idea from a fairly terrible episode on the downslope of the Berman-era franchise, innit. How compelling it is to say something is not a terrible idea because it looks sort of like a terrible idea they had on Voyager... on a Voyager *Neelix episode* no less... meh.

Borg nanoprobe MagicBlood that revives people who are only Mostly-Dead instead of All-Dead (in which case all you can do is go through their pockets and look for loose change) was for the record one of many truly terrible Voyager ideas, right up there with the episode where Voyager has to *teach the Borg* how to adapt their nanoprobes to attack Species Random-Sequence-of-Numbers. Put Mortal Coil and Scorpion together and you nearly have MagicBlood that is arguably just as ill-conceived as nuKhan-vintage MagicBlood in nuTrek.

Which speaks well of neither proposition.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Berman Trek Magic Blood.

The Doctor pronounces Neelix dead, but Seven proposes a revival procedure using nanoprobes from her bloodstream. After discussing it with the Doctor and Captain Janeway, Janeway orders the Doctor to proceed, even though Neelix has been dead for 18 hours. Seven quickly modifies and administers the nanoprobes, they proceed, and after some touch and go, Neelix is revived. He has no recollection of what happened and where he has been and wonders why he is in sickbay.

Gee that sounds familiar. Like I saw it in a movie recently.

Nanoprobes, not blood.

So, abracadabra instead of hocus pocus, or Walla Walla, Washington.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Nanoprobes are MACHINES. Hence, engineering, hence science.

Voyager my love you just got injected with some Hard Sci-Fi! Everyone will totally respect you now.

 

[BillJ]

Yep. Khan and nuKhan are identical in every way. How could I possibly have missed that they're twins? Obviously I failed to notice that they're of the same ethnic background! Of course a caucasian guy with an accent that reminds me of Alan Rickman is really somebody who was born in India!

You do know Montalban was a Latino actor born in Mexico? So they should've hired another Mexican national to play Khan?

 

[F. King Daniel]

Yep. Khan and nuKhan are identical in every way. How could I possibly have missed that they're twins? Obviously I failed to notice that they're of the same ethnic background! Of course a caucasian guy with an accent that reminds me of Alan Rickman is really somebody who was born in India!

You do know Montalban was a Latino actor born in Mexico? So they should've hired another Mexican national to play Khan?

And that this supposed Indian turned white way back in Wrath of Khan?

And that, despite Marla's bizarre claim in "Space Seed", couldn't possibly have been identified as a Sikh on-sight due to his being clean-shaven, having a waxed chest and going without their sacred turban?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Berman Trek Magic Blood.

The Doctor pronounces Neelix dead, but Seven proposes a revival procedure using nanoprobes from her bloodstream. After discussing it with the Doctor and Captain Janeway, Janeway orders the Doctor to proceed, even though Neelix has been dead for 18 hours. Seven quickly modifies and administers the nanoprobes, they proceed, and after some touch and go, Neelix is revived. He has no recollection of what happened and where he has been and wonders why he is in sickbay.

Gee that sounds familiar. Like I saw it in a movie recently.

Nanoprobes, not blood.

He doesn't have to. The human healing process centers around blood. Khan was seconds away from death in "Space Seed", that he could recover quickly and completely without McCoy lifting finger means he has "magic blood".

Original Khan and nuKhan are the same people. Khan comes from before the timeline split in 2233.

Yep. Khan and nuKhan are identical in every way. How could I possibly have missed that they're twins? Obviously I failed to notice that they're of the same ethnic background! Of course a caucasian guy with an accent that reminds me of Alan Rickman is really somebody who was born in India!

Naturally, there are NO actors on the whole damn planet who they could have found to play the part of Khan Noonian Singh without having to mumble something like, "Well, y'see I was adopted..."
.

Different actors have played the same parts in all sorts of films. We've had two Saaviks and two Cochranes with in the same continuity of Star Trek. Why draw the line at Khan? Are Curtis and Ally of the same ethnic background? And as been pointed out neither Montalban nor Cumberbatch are Indian and neither one spoke with an Indian accent.

Where was it stated Khan was adopted in either film or the TV series?

 

[SeerSGB]

Berman Trek Magic Blood.

The Doctor pronounces Neelix dead, but Seven proposes a revival procedure using nanoprobes from her bloodstream. After discussing it with the Doctor and Captain Janeway, Janeway orders the Doctor to proceed, even though Neelix has been dead for 18 hours. Seven quickly modifies and administers the nanoprobes, they proceed, and after some touch and go, Neelix is revived. He has no recollection of what happened and where he has been and wonders why he is in sickbay.

Gee that sounds familiar. Like I saw it in a movie recently.

Nanoprobes, not blood.

He doesn't have to. The human healing process centers around blood. Khan was seconds away from death in "Space Seed", that he could recover quickly and completely without McCoy lifting finger means he has "magic blood".

Original Khan and nuKhan are the same people. Khan comes from before the timeline split in 2233.

Yep. Khan and nuKhan are identical in every way. How could I possibly have missed that they're twins? Obviously I failed to notice that they're of the same ethnic background! Of course a caucasian guy with an accent that reminds me of Alan Rickman is really somebody who was born in India!

Naturally, there are NO actors on the whole damn planet who they could have found to play the part of Khan Noonian Singh without having to mumble something like, "Well, y'see I was adopted..."

Conversely, the addition of Khan's "super blood" has no similar retroactive impact on Space Seed or Wrath of Khan, and actually ties in neatly to Arik Soong's comments to Jonathan Archer about how the repressed genetic engineering technology could have saved Archer's father during the ENT Augment trilogy, and how the genetically engineered are free of illness and live 3 times longer than humans.

I never saw this part of Enterprise.

It's the same bloody (no pun) thing. STID, said McCoy created the cure from Khan's blood not that he used Khan's blood unaltered. Which, is exactly what Voyager did: Pulled whats was needed from Seven Of Nine's blood and created a cure.

Gee that sounds familiar. Like I saw it in a movie recently.

Except that is rather an instance of defending a nuTrek trope by comparing it to an extremely terrible idea from a fairly terrible episode on the downslope of the Berman-era franchise, innit. How compelling it is to say something is not a terrible idea because it looks sort of like a terrible idea they had on Voyager... on a Voyager *Neelix episode* no less... meh.

Borg nanoprobe MagicBlood that revives people who are only Mostly-Dead instead of All-Dead (in which case all you can do is go through their pockets and look for loose change) was for the record one of many truly terrible Voyager ideas, right up there with the episode where Voyager has to *teach the Borg* how to adapt their nanoprobes to attack Species Random-Sequence-of-Numbers. Put Mortal Coil and Scorpion together and you nearly have MagicBlood that is arguably just as ill-conceived as nuKhan-vintage MagicBlood in nuTrek.

Which speaks well of neither proposition.

That's kind of the point though: STID isn't really anything different from what Trek's done before--good or bad.

There's no small of humor in people crying that STID is a rip-off movie, then saying "Well Trek never would/did [insert XYZ]!" If STID has one major flaw, is that it is to close prior Trek. To loyal in the tone and tropes from the prior years of the franchise. It's a good movie, I enjoyed it, had fun, but it's a by the numbers Trek movie.

 

[Jeyl]

Gee that sounds familiar. Like I saw it in a movie recently.

Aren't we forgetting something?

EPISODE SYNOPSIS:
After being killed on an away mission and then revived by Seven's Borg nanoprobes, Neelix finds himself in a deep existential and spiritual crisis, questioning his faith and the meaning of his existence.​

Doesn't sound like any Star Trek movie I've seen this year. Star Trek: Voyager, the world renowned queen of the reset switches was able to tell a story involving a reset switch and actually have it be about something. The act of being brought back to life is taken very seriously, where as in Star Trek Into Darkness it's treated as the convenient "reset switch" that comes with zero consequences so that everything can go back to the way things were.

 

[SeerSGB]

Gee that sounds familiar. Like I saw it in a movie recently.

Aren't we forgetting something?

EPISODE SYNOPSIS:
After being killed on an away mission and then revived by Seven's Borg nanoprobes, Neelix finds himself in a deep existential and spiritual crisis, questioning his faith and the meaning of his existence.​

Doesn't sound like any Star Trek movie I've seen this year. Star Trek: Voyager, the world renowned queen of the reset switches was able to tell a story involving a reset switch and actually have it be about something. The act of being brought back to life is taken very seriously, where as in Star Trek Into Darkness it's treated as the convenient "reset switch" that comes with zero consequences so that everything can go back to the way things were.

So basically: a Trek movie.

 

[BigJake]

That's kind of the point though: STID isn't really anything different from what Trek's done before--good or bad.

I don't think this is actually true in that STID and ST09's sheer concentration of pulp SF memes puts the overall gestalt far closer to Wars than Trek ever previously went: but analyzed meme by meme you can most certainly find things in old Trek that parallel things in nuTrek. It's just that the more of those parallels come from old Trek at its worst, the less those comparisons will do to dilute the proverbial Hatorade.

 

[SeerSGB]

That's kind of the point though: STID isn't really anything different from what Trek's done before--good or bad.

I don't think this is actually true in that STID and ST09's sheer concentration of pulp SF memes puts the overall gestalt far closer to Wars than Trek ever previously went: but analyzed meme by meme you can most certainly find things in old Trek that parallel things in nuTrek. It's just that the more of those parallels come from old Trek at its worst, the less those comparisons will do to dilute the proverbial Hatorade.

The magic cure all one shot has been a Trek Trope for most of the franchise. Though McCoy gets the lion's share of the blame in pop-culture he wasn't a free and loose with the hypo the way later Treks were. TNG was really the worse offender of it and made it a staple of Trek.

STID suffers from having these standard issue Trek fare tropes compressed into a single 2 hour movie. And, as much as I enjoy the movie, I'll be the first to say: they stuff to much, to fast, into the movie. It's too loyal to the franchise's concepts and gimmicks. It isn't Star Wars, it's a season of Berman Trek compressed into 2 hours. It's like the way some anime series will take a 40 episode series and retell the whole thing as a 2 hour movie (example: Macross: Do You Remember Love). It's good, but it doesn't do the original as much justice as it could.

The Abrams movies are good, easily in the top 5 or so of Trek films. But they suffer from being overly loyal to the franchise--STID most of off.

 

[BigJake]

Hm, the point about the effects of compression is interesting. There might be something to that.

 

[Timewalker]

Yep. Khan and nuKhan are identical in every way. How could I possibly have missed that they're twins? Obviously I failed to notice that they're of the same ethnic background! Of course a caucasian guy with an accent that reminds me of Alan Rickman is really somebody who was born in India!

You do know Montalban was a Latino actor born in Mexico? So they should've hired another Mexican national to play Khan?

And that this supposed Indian turned white way back in Wrath of Khan?

And that, despite Marla's bizarre claim in "Space Seed", couldn't possibly have been identified as a Sikh on-sight due to his being clean-shaven, having a waxed chest and going without their sacred turban?

Ricardo Montalban was a closer match to a character born in India than the nuKhan actor.

ALL of Khan's people changed between Space Seed and the movie. Some say it's because they were actually a fast-growing second generation, while others have speculated it was extreme stress that brought on Khan's physical changes. Whatever... it was the same character, played by the same actor.

As for Marla, she was an idiot.

Yep. Khan and nuKhan are identical in every way. How could I possibly have missed that they're twins? Obviously I failed to notice that they're of the same ethnic background! Of course a caucasian guy with an accent that reminds me of Alan Rickman is really somebody who was born in India!

Naturally, there are NO actors on the whole damn planet who they could have found to play the part of Khan Noonian Singh without having to mumble something like, "Well, y'see I was adopted..."
.

Different actors have played the same parts in all sorts of films. We've had two Saaviks and two Cochranes with in the same continuity of Star Trek. Why draw the line at Khan? Are Curtis and Ally of the same ethnic background? And as been pointed out neither Montalban nor Cumberbatch are Indian and neither one spoke with an Indian accent.

Where was it stated Khan was adopted in either film or the TV series?

Saavik v.2 was apparently retconned as being a full Vulcan instead of a Vulcan-Romulan hybrid. And although I really didn't care for Robin Curtis' performance, what difference does it make about her ethnic background vs Kirstey Alley's ethnic background? They looked basically identical in the superficial ways that matter for character continuity. The same can't be said about Khan/nuKhan.

As for my comment re: adoption... that's the ONLY explanation I would ever accept to explain why nuKhan looks the way he does. The character is Indian. This actor doesn't look remotely Indian, or from anywhere close to India. Therefore, if he's to have that name, I'd accept adoption as a workaround.

(even Spock knew how to recognize sarcasm... )

 

[SeerSGB]

Hm, the point about the effects of compression is interesting. There might be something to that.

Think about it: 2 hours and less than a minute to explain a gimmick. Vesus 24 episode across multiple episodes to explain and evolve a gimmick. You've got to pick and choose what is important to the story you're telling and how much time you spend on the filler when a story's time compressed like that.

Kirk's death and resurrection wasn't the story they were telling. So they shorthanded it down to "Dr McCoy's Magic Hypo strikes again". I wouldn't even count it as a real plot point, cause you could cut it out, change a couple of lines and that still tell the same main story.

 

[F. King Daniel]

You do know Montalban was a Latino actor born in Mexico? So they should've hired another Mexican national to play Khan?

And that this supposed Indian turned white way back in Wrath of Khan?

And that, despite Marla's bizarre claim in "Space Seed", couldn't possibly have been identified as a Sikh on-sight due to his being clean-shaven, having a waxed chest and going without their sacred turban?

Ricardo Montalban was a closer match to a character born in India than the nuKhan actor.

No he does not look Indian at all, he was just brownfaced for "Space Seed"

ALL of Khan's people changed between Space Seed and the movie. Some say it's because they were actually a fast-growing second generation, while others have speculated it was extreme stress that brought on Khan's physical changes. Whatever... it was the same character, played by the same actor.

As for Marla, she was an idiot.

Stress turned Khan white? I'm not sure whether to laugh or be embarrassed, here.

Yep. Khan and nuKhan are identical in every way. How could I possibly have missed that they're twins? Obviously I failed to notice that they're of the same ethnic background! Of course a caucasian guy with an accent that reminds me of Alan Rickman is really somebody who was born in India!

Naturally, there are NO actors on the whole damn planet who they could have found to play the part of Khan Noonian Singh without having to mumble something like, "Well, y'see I was adopted..."
.

Different actors have played the same parts in all sorts of films. We've had two Saaviks and two Cochranes with in the same continuity of Star Trek. Why draw the line at Khan? Are Curtis and Ally of the same ethnic background? And as been pointed out neither Montalban nor Cumberbatch are Indian and neither one spoke with an Indian accent.

Where was it stated Khan was adopted in either film or the TV series?

Saavik v.2 was apparently retconned as being a full Vulcan instead of a Vulcan-Romulan hybrid. And although I really didn't care for Robin Curtis' performance, what difference does it make about her ethnic background vs Kirstey Alley's ethnic background? They looked basically identical in the superficial ways that matter for character continuity. The same can't be said about Khan/nuKhan.

Compare Khan's Wrath of Khan and Into Darkness skin colours - both are white. You're selectively nitpicking, here. Here are some pics of Montalban, note the colour of his skin.

As for my comment re: adoption... that's the ONLY explanation I would ever accept to explain why nuKhan looks the way he does. The character is Indian. This actor doesn't look remotely Indian, or from anywhere close to India. Therefore, if he's to have that name, I'd accept adoption as a workaround.

(even Spock knew how to recognize sarcasm... )

Neither does Ricardo Montalban! He's as Indian as Cumberbatch - you only see "not white" (in brownface "Space Seed" at least) and assume it's "closer" - and it's ignorant and offensive. here are some Indian men. Look up at the pics of Khan I posted again - none of them look anything like Ricardo Montalban, even when they brownfaced him.

Explanation? Khan was made in a lab, his skin colour is therefore completely irrelevant, the whim of his creator or a fluke result of DNA modifications.

 

[Sindatur]

You do know Montalban was a Latino actor born in Mexico? So they should've hired another Mexican national to play Khan?

And that this supposed Indian turned white way back in Wrath of Khan?

And that, despite Marla's bizarre claim in "Space Seed", couldn't possibly have been identified as a Sikh on-sight due to his being clean-shaven, having a waxed chest and going without their sacred turban?

Ricardo Montalban was a closer match to a character born in India than the nuKhan actor.

ALL of Khan's people changed between Space Seed and the movie. Some say it's because they were actually a fast-growing second generation, while others have speculated it was extreme stress that brought on Khan's physical changes. Whatever... it was the same character, played by the same actor.

As for Marla, she was an idiot.

Yep. Khan and nuKhan are identical in every way. How could I possibly have missed that they're twins? Obviously I failed to notice that they're of the same ethnic background! Of course a caucasian guy with an accent that reminds me of Alan Rickman is really somebody who was born in India!

Naturally, there are NO actors on the whole damn planet who they could have found to play the part of Khan Noonian Singh without having to mumble something like, "Well, y'see I was adopted..."
.

Different actors have played the same parts in all sorts of films. We've had two Saaviks and two Cochranes with in the same continuity of Star Trek. Why draw the line at Khan? Are Curtis and Ally of the same ethnic background? And as been pointed out neither Montalban nor Cumberbatch are Indian and neither one spoke with an Indian accent.

Where was it stated Khan was adopted in either film or the TV series?

Saavik v.2 was apparently retconned as being a full Vulcan instead of a Vulcan-Romulan hybrid. And although I really didn't care for Robin Curtis' performance, what difference does it make about her ethnic background vs Kirstey Alley's ethnic background? They looked basically identical in the superficial ways that matter for character continuity. The same can't be said about Khan/nuKhan.

As for my comment re: adoption... that's the ONLY explanation I would ever accept to explain why nuKhan looks the way he does. The character is Indian. This actor doesn't look remotely Indian, or from anywhere close to India. Therefore, if he's to have that name, I'd accept adoption as a workaround.

(even Spock knew how to recognize sarcasm... )

Montalban is quite clearly Hispanic looking, not Indian looking. Considering Britain's long history/relationship with India, I personally, find it far, far more believable that a pasty white British guy would come from India then an Hispanic Guy. And actually, I have known a great many pale skinned Indian men, from India, working in the Electronics field, the tan is certainly not what makes an Indian man, Indian looking

 

[Timewalker]

Then we've just met different men from India. Personally, I've never met any pale-skinned men who were born there. I've also never met any pale-skinned people with Indian names unless they happened to be women who married a man with that last name and changed their names as a result (as in a local couple I met during my years of working in live theatre; he's from India and she's not).

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

GUYS! Khan is a product of eugenics, who knows how much tinkering with his looks the designers did! You can't look at a made in the lab experimental human and point to heritage because you just don't know what was messed around with.

 

[iguana_tonante]

I've found that the people who care for the "science" in Trek are the ones who understand the least about actual science. (For example, failing to recognize the difference between science writing and science fiction.)

FTL? All good. Transporters? Fine and dandy. FTL transporters? Now you are mad. It's so silly.

I know others have asked it, but you really haven't seen a lot of Trek have you?

Check my profile. I've been a Trek fan since November 1975. That's nearly 38 years, which is longer than many people on this forum have been alive.

And yet, you seem to understand so little of it. I wouldn't wave it around so much, if I were you.

Yep. Khan and nuKhan are identical in every way. How could I possibly have missed that they're twins? Obviously I failed to notice that they're of the same ethnic background! Of course a caucasian guy with an accent that reminds me of Alan Rickman is really somebody who was born in India!

Montalban is caucasian too. He was born in Mexico to Spanish parents.

Ricardo Montalban was a closer match to a character born in India than the nuKhan actor.

No, he was not. He was white, just like Cumberbatch. They just smeared dirt on his face for the TOS episode, which apparently makes him "Indian enough" for you. I guess all brown people look the same to you, including white people with dirt on their faces. I guess blackface works for playing African-Americans, too. No need to have black people, just get a bunch of white guys and put some shoe-polish on them.