TMP on Blu-Ray

[Leto_II]

Probably for reasons of pacing -- Robert Wise went in and basically fine-tuned the cut to within an inch of its life for the Director's Edition, and this included making many, many trims to scenes that were already rather short in the theatrical cut (the Kirk's quarters argument among them).

This resulted in several rather inexplicable snips to existing scenes, such as Kirk's second, waspish, "Viewer off!!" in the crew Rec-deck scene, McCoy's "...Or a crew of a thousand, ten miles tall!" during the entry to V'Ger, etc.

All of these small moments added teaspoons of actual character to the movie, and for a film often criticized as being desperately in need of every drop of characterization it can get, these trims are utterly baffling, except perhaps if Wise was trying to make Kirk look like less of an asshole in that scene.

But I'd still rather have Asshole Kirk™ in that moment, honestly.

 

[BeatleJWOL]

Has anybody with the Blu-ray ripped and some video editing tried replicating the Special Longer Version with the deleted scenes included? I seem to recall that they still had the music included, despite being relegated to bonus features.

 

[Dream]

I'm a little weary of this "artificially imposed studio deadline" talk. TMP had a YEAR of post production, which is usually plenty, and that would have been longer had principle photography not run over schedule. The film got in trouble over the ASTRA issue, and the producer's apparent unwillingness to trim down the number of effects shots.

Too bad the delays didn't push back release to a later date, like how how Star Wars was pushed from Christmas to the following Summer. There is something called putting out the best product!

 

[Oso Blanco]

Has anybody with the Blu-ray ripped and some video editing tried replicating the Special Longer Version with the deleted scenes included? I seem to recall that they still had the music included, despite being relegated to bonus features.

Someone has recreated the Special Longer Version from an HD broadcast of the Theatrical Cut and the deleted scenes from the the DE DVD.

The picture is only DVD resulution, but it's a pretty accurate recreation of the SLV. And the best thing, it's widescreen ... as opposed to the official releases of the SLV, which were all pan and scan.

I don't know whether or not it's still available in the vastness of the internet, though.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

I initially was put off by the DE when it came out, because of certain changes like the klaxons during Red Alert. Many years later I got the DVD and it really grew on me. I never cared too much for TMP, but the DE definitely improved the pacing and the inclusion of those character moments really added a lot. I think it still needs serious trimming, such as the reveal of the new Enterprise. As much as I love Goldsmith, the scene itself is a slog and repetitive.

I do hope the DE gets an HD treatment soon. It's the kind of director's cut that is tastefully done such as the 2007 cut of BLADE RUNNER and many others.

 

[trevanian]

This resulted in several rather inexplicable snips to existing scenes, such as Kirk's second, waspish, "Viewer off!!" in the crew Rec-deck scene, McCoy's "...Or a crew of a thousand, ten miles tall!" during the entry to V'Ger, etc.

.

The ten miles line is only in the SE from TV, not the theatrical. Why he cut it in the first place is the question ...

Sorry I haven't been chiming in on these TMP threads, but I've been really sick for about 10 days and not doing much of anything. Will try to check in more often, apologies to all.

 

[Gojira]

I recently watched the theatrical cut and I was surprised to see how superior the Directors Edition really is!! A huge improvement! However, I do like the theatrical cut so I will pick that up. I am surprised the Blu-Ray doesn't have both!

 

[Lance]

^ As I understand it, it's more a case of the Blu Ray can't have both, because the assets used for certain brand new special effects sequences in the DE were all done digitally, and those assets no longer exist so they'd have to spend money redoing them with new technology to make them match up to an HD standard. As opposed to the theatical cut, where they just need to run the original negative through a machine to scan it at a higher res. The simple fact is that no 'original negative' of the DE exists because it was an entirely digital production made specifically for the DVD era.

I assume the 'Special Longer Version' could be done in HD however, because it was sourced from original assets that probably still exist in the vaults. It'd just be a case of tracking down the relevant negatives, scanning everything and then splicing it together to match the previous SLV.

 

[Oso Blanco]

I assume the 'Special Longer Version' could be done in HD however, because it was sourced from original assets that probably still exist in the vaults. It'd just be a case of tracking down the relevant negatives, scanning everything and then splicing it together to match the previous SLV.

I think that all the negatives where there when they did the DE. Some scenes from the SLV turned up in the DE, some as deleted scenes. No idea if those came from the original negatives, though.

 

[Lance]

I assume the 'Special Longer Version' could be done in HD however, because it was sourced from original assets that probably still exist in the vaults. It'd just be a case of tracking down the relevant negatives, scanning everything and then splicing it together to match the previous SLV.

I think that all the negatives where there when they did the DE. Some scenes from the SLV turned up in the DE, some as deleted scenes. No idea if those came from the original negatives, though.

Not everything in the DE came from the original negatives. The new special effect sequences (which Wikipedia tells me comprised "90 new and redesigned computer-generated images") were done digitally, and as I am led to understand it the assets used back in 2001 to construct these sequences no longer exist. So those sequences, at the very least, would have to either be cut (which would remove the whole point of the Director's Edition), or replaced completely with brand new versions remade with HD technology (which would be costly for the studio). Neither seems very likely.

As you say, in theory a number of the trims, cuts and redubbed live-action scenes from the DE could be made by simply scanning those negatives and then making the changes to reflect how they appeared in the DE. But those particular new special effects sequences could be what tips a release of the DE in Blu Ray format into the "too hard" basket.

 

[Harvey]

Everything I've read suggests all the digital assets from the DE still exist. They just need to be re-rendered in high definition.

 

[Grant]

Everything I've read suggests all the digital assets from the DE still exist. They just need to be re-rendered in high definition.

Why do people keep claiming they have been lost?

Is it the same people who claim all the deleted scenes have been lost?

 

[Leto_II]

If they were lost, it'd be the exact same situation that happened to Babylon 5, and which is preventing that series from getting an HD upgrade -- essentially, the original CGI files created way back in the mid-'90s were dumped out of memory and lost.

What this means is that Warner Bros. will have to spent a huge amount of money to create brand-new visual FX from scratch if they ever want to release B5 on Blu-Ray.

 

[SpHeRe31459]

Everything I've read suggests all the digital assets from the DE still exist. They just need to be re-rendered in high definition.

Correct. The company that did the CG for the remaster, Foundation Imaging, is defunct, however the digital artists that worked on it have the files in their personal collections. One of them is Daren Dochterman, he has repeatedly said he's ready willing and able to redo the DE CGI if Paramount ever came calling.

Daren has also said that the newly color timed copy of TMP exists somewhere in Paramount's vaults, since they struck a new master of it as a starting place for the DE release.

 

[Maurice]

First, again, the release date was not arbitrary, but the fact that Paramount had pre-booked it with theater chains meant they were legally bound to release it by Dec. 7, 1979, and subject to lawsuit if they didn't. That the film ran into so many problems means the Producers fumbled badly and didn't deal with the production problems in an effective manner. They could easily have whacked 40% of the effects shots and saved time and money and probably ended up with a better film.

As to Wise's re-edit. I think it's safe to say that the DE is no such thing. We've discussed it again and again, and the DE feels like a fan edit that Wise said yes to. There's some good editorial choices and a lot of head scratchers.

 

[Oso Blanco]

I assume the 'Special Longer Version' could be done in HD however, because it was sourced from original assets that probably still exist in the vaults. It'd just be a case of tracking down the relevant negatives, scanning everything and then splicing it together to match the previous SLV.

I think that all the negatives where there when they did the DE. Some scenes from the SLV turned up in the DE, some as deleted scenes. No idea if those came from the original negatives, though.

Not everything in the DE came from the original negatives. The new special effect sequences (which Wikipedia tells me comprised "90 new and redesigned computer-generated images") were done digitally, and as I am led to understand it the assets used back in 2001 to construct these sequences no longer exist. So those sequences, at the very least, would have to either be cut (which would remove the whole point of the Director's Edition), or replaced completely with brand new versions remade with HD technology (which would be costly for the studio). Neither seems very likely.

As you say, in theory a number of the trims, cuts and redubbed live-action scenes from the DE could be made by simply scanning those negatives and then making the changes to reflect how they appeared in the DE. But those particular new special effects sequences could be what tips a release of the DE in Blu Ray format into the "too hard" basket.

You're talking about the DE, I was talking about the SLV ... referring to the post that I quoted. And I do think that all the negatives needed for the SLV were there when they did the DE, because all of the scenes turned up one way or the other on the DE DVD.

Regarding the DE, I coudn't care less ... I watched it once, and I will never watch it again. I think it's just wrong to fiddle with a movie's fx some 20 years after its release. But I've said that many times before, no need to revive that discussion again.

 

[Leto_II]

As to Wise's re-edit. I think it's safe to say that the DE is no such thing. We've discussed it again and again, and the DE feels like a fan edit that Wise said yes to. There's some good editorial choices and a lot of head scratchers.

According to the DVD documentary "Redirecting the Future," Wise himself personally supervised the re-cutting after approaching the Paramount executives about wanting to put together a final "check-cut" of the film.

It's probably safe to assume that he OK'd each of the changes made to the film, including many of those mystifying, "why-the-hell-did-he-trim-that?" edits. Though I've long wondered whether some of the later DE cuts were his idea personally, or suggestions of the editorial staff working under him.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

As to Wise's re-edit. I think it's safe to say that the DE is no such thing. We've discussed it again and again, and the DE feels like a fan edit that Wise said yes to. There's some good editorial choices and a lot of head scratchers.

According to the DVD documentary "Redirecting the Future," Wise himself personally supervised the re-cutting after approaching the Paramount executives about wanting to put together a final "check-cut" of the film.

It's probably safe to assume that he OK'd each of the changes made to the film, including many of those mystifying, "why-the-hell-did-he-trim-that?" edits. Though I've long wondered whether some of the later DE cuts were his idea personally, or suggestions of the editorial staff working under him.

Right. To call it a "fan edit" is false, heck, Wise has a better idea of good editing than most fans would claim (though not the best, if that masturbatory scene of Kirk looking at the Enterprise for five minutes says something). If the DE is anything it's a more polished version of TMP, something we may have gotten had he been allowed the time. Kind of like the BLADE RUNNER final cut, which is similar to the labeled "Director's Cut" but is actually more properly edited/pieced together.

 

[Lance]

I think that all the negatives where there when they did the DE. Some scenes from the SLV turned up in the DE, some as deleted scenes. No idea if those came from the original negatives, though.

Not everything in the DE came from the original negatives. The new special effect sequences (which Wikipedia tells me comprised "90 new and redesigned computer-generated images" were done digitally, and as I am led to understand it the assets used back in 2001 to construct these sequences no longer exist. So those sequences, at the very least, would have to either be cut (which would remove the whole point of the Director's Edition), or replaced completely with brand new versions remade with HD technology (which would be costly for the studio). Neither seems very likely.

As you say, in theory a number of the trims, cuts and redubbed live-action scenes from the DE could be made by simply scanning those negatives and then making the changes to reflect how they appeared in the DE. But those particular new special effects sequences could be what tips a release of the DE in Blu Ray format into the "too hard" basket.

You're talking about the DE, I was talking about the SLV ... referring to the post that I quoted. And I do think that all the negatives needed for the SLV were there when they did the DE, because all of the scenes turned up one way or the other on the DE DVD.

Regarding the DE, I coudn't care less ... I watched it once, and I will never watch it again. I think it's just wrong to fiddle with a movie's fx some 20 years after its release. But I've said that many times before, no need to revive that discussion again.

Ah, my mistake. Yeah, I agree 100% about the DE, it's interesting and all but it isn't by any means my definitive version. IMO, for all the shit it gets, it's far better that the theatrical cut is out there and available. I hate hate HATE it when movie makers restrict the original cuts on home video in favor of later re-edits.

 

[Maurice]

What the PR people said about the depth of Wise's involvement and what actually transpired isn't provable, obviously, but the editorial choices in the film don't match what Wise previously said he wanted to do if he could recut the film, and the number of fan wanky changes made in the DE smack of someone else driving the bus (hello Sharpline).