Was Roddenberry a Terrible Writer?

[Lance]

How was Gene Roddenberry in terms of his treatment of women?

There are many tales to be told. Some of them potentially libellous, I don't doubt.

 

[jpv2000]

You mean like the girl who comes up to Xon and asks about whether his pon farr is coming up soon?

That stuff is bad, but GR's draft does at least represent the approach to vger by Ent in a way that visually was honest and correct ... and I actually like his San Francisco stuff, even if it isn't necessary to the story. Wish I still had that draft.

Is that the one with the beach scene with Kirk and Alexandria swimming nude?

Say what?

 

[mb22]

JFK Dies Star Trek Style might have worked as a TV movie or a film in isolation, but not as something mixed in with the TWOK trilogy or any of the other films

This was talked about around 1980 as a followup to TMP, prior to TWOK.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

This was talked about around 1980 as a followup to TMP, prior to TWOK.

It was brought up even after TWOK, too. Roddenberry wouldn't let the idea die and submitted revised scripts when it was time for each new movie. He finally stopped at TUC because he was too ill, but not before ripping Nimoy and Meyer for their story idea.

--Sran

 

[Harvey]

Were their scripts? I was under the impression that the idea never made it beyond the treatment stage.

 

[nightwind1]

I've only seen a clip of one Roddenberry-penned HG,WT episode, but I felt it was pretty smart and well-written.

Most of GR's HG,WT episodes were pretty good.

And two of them featured a prison chaplain named Robert April.

 

[trevanian]

You mean like the girl who comes up to Xon and asks about whether his pon farr is coming up soon?

That stuff is bad, but GR's draft does at least represent the approach to vger by Ent in a way that visually was honest and correct ... and I actually like his San Francisco stuff, even if it isn't necessary to the story. Wish I still had that draft.

Is that the one with the beach scene with Kirk and Alexandria swimming nude?

Yeah. I seem to remember Kirk doing running handstands while racing her back toward SFC (I'm pretty sure they have clothes on again by that point.)

What's weird is that I don't remember McCoy treating a kid's pet cheetah, though I know I read about that elsewhere.

 

[Maurice]

You mean like the girl who comes up to Xon and asks about whether his pon farr is coming up soon?

That stuff is bad, but GR's draft does at least represent the approach to vger by Ent in a way that visually was honest and correct ... and I actually like his San Francisco stuff, even if it isn't necessary to the story. Wish I still had that draft.

Is that the one with the beach scene with Kirk and Alexandria swimming nude?

Say what?

Were their scripts? I was under the impression that the idea never made it beyond the treatment stage.

Here's a sample...

9 EXT. EARTH APPROACH

a point of light directly ahead, rapidly growing in size, taking shape, then becoming planet Earth. CAMERA CONTINUES hurtling toward Earth which grows within seconds from a tiny dot into the familiar blue, clouded globe which then fins the screen. CAMERA CONTINUES, PLUMMETING DOWN toward what we can recognize as the Western coastline of North America -- still travelling toward Earth so fast that the California coastline is already filling the screen, then becoming the San Francisco area coast, then our eye registers oceans and rocky beach.

10 EXT. OCEAN UNDERWATER - SHALLOW ANGLE - DAY 10

PLUNGING EXPLOSIVELY into the water, JAMES KIRK knifes past the air bubbles of a long dive, then he curves gracefully up through the clear blue water toward the surface again.

11 EXT. OCEAN SHORELINE SURFACE - DAY

Kirk coming to the surface, shaking the water from his eyes as he turns in time to see his companion ALEXANDRIA diving into the water from the same rocky coastal ledge which he has just used Our coastline view is this rocky cliff only -- no buildings in view. Kirk and Alexandria are nude -- we limit it to "PG" since we're using nudity merely to illustrate 23rd century mature attitudes.

11 CONTINUED: 11
As Alexandria comes to the surface, they grin at each other in the mood of children at play. But the moment is interrupted by a strange GARBLED SOUND which puzzles Kirk for an instant. But Alexandria recognizes it immediately, and chides:

ALEXANDRIA
You goat! I warned you not to wear it!​

She has pointed toward his left forearm, then kicks herself underwater. Understanding her Kirk lifts his left forearm out of the water and the GARBLED SOUND BECOMES THE CALL SIGNAL of the communicator clasped to his wrist.

KIRK
Damn!
(flips switch)
Kirk here...
​

Kirk's last word becomes bubbles as he is yanked underwater.

12 EXT. OCEAN UNDERWATER - DAY 12

Kirk grabbing at Alexandria who has pulled him under-water. Then an embrace as they drift up toward the surface. All through their SCENES TOGETHER, we'll sense that Kirk and Alexandria are (or are becoming more than us casual lovers or friends.

13 EXT. OCEAN SHORELINE SURFACE - DAY

as Kirk and Alexandria break INTO VIEW, still embracing. This time, Kirk's left arm and communicator are above water and the repeating CALL SIGNAL comes through clearly. Alexandria fights to prevent 'him from answering but he finally breaks free and speaks into the communicator again:

KIRK
Sorry, Benyatta, I was attacked by an underwater creature.

COMMUNICATOR VOICE
Repeat, sir?
​

(CONTINUED)

 

[Professor Moriarty]

FWIW, I'm halfway through volume I of These Are the Voyages (http://www.jacobsbrownmediagroup.com/these-are-the-voyages.html) and from the series' own production history and notes it seems plain that Gene Roddenberry was an inveterate meddler in the scripts of other writers and something of a hack in his own "write" (pun very much intended).

 

[Christopher]

^Well, to be fair, it's the job of a showrunner to rewrite others' scripts so that they're consistent in characterization, continuity, and voice.

 

[Maurice]

FWIW, I'm halfway through volume I of These Are the Voyages (http://www.jacobsbrownmediagroup.com/these-are-the-voyages.html) and from the series' own production history and notes it seems plain that Gene Roddenberry was an inveterate meddler in the scripts of other writers and something of a hack in his own "write" (pun very much intended).

re Roddenberry and the "need" to rewrite scripts (emphasis mine):

BOB [JUSTMAN]: At the time, I was disappointed by the fact that Gene never responded to my request to be paid for the story [for Tomorrow Is Yesterday]. I knew he had come up with a number of story ideas for the show, "springboards" as we called them. He claimed that he wouldn't get paid for them; they were part of his duties as creator of the show. But since I was part of the management team, I rationalized, if Gene could do it gratis, then so could I. The important thing was to help the show in every way possible. At the time, I had no idea that Gene would receive extra money from the studio for this "extra work." Many years later when I had the facts, I came to realize that the "feet of clay" syndrome was kicking in--but at the time, I didn't want to accept that fact.

HERB [SOLOW]: Gene's refusal to acknowlege Bob Justman's story contribution was a particularly cruel treatment of his Associate Producer and friend, especially when considering his money demands for anything he wrote or rewrote. Part of the salary and royalty paid series "Creator-Executive Producers" covered some rewriting of stories and scripts. After I left [Desilu] and went to MGM, Gene's agents submitted bills directly to the Paramount Business Affairs Department for almost every story or rewrite he did. The payments ranged from $750 to over $3,000, at times even more than what the writer of a particular script was paid. It was like putting the fox in charge of the henhouse; it was Gene himself, deciding what stories and scripts needed rewriting. And the more stories and scripts he rewrote, he more extra money he was paid. It's no wonder that almost all of the Star Trek writers, at one time or another, were angered over his treatment of their scripts. At the time, even Bob Justman didn't know about Gene's additional "perks." These extraordinary payments were not reflected in the studio's weekly cost reports.

By the time I heard about Roddenberry's refusal to give RJ credit, money, or even a personal acknowledgement for his story, it was twenty-seven years later and there was nothing I could do to correct the situation.

(Several years later, the Writers Guild ruled that scriptwriters must be given the opportunity to do their own first rewrite and, if they chose not to do so, specifically forbade producers from rewriting a script without first consulting the writer.)

So make of that what you will.

 

[trevanian]

Or to hire writers whose visions he respects and talents he trusts sufficiently to let them have their head. I was just reading a piece today with the lady doing that new Jon Voight Liev Schreiber show and she brought one writer over from the UK (he had done a series about a transgendered hit man!!!!) just on the basis of the uniqueness and darkness of his take on things, and took another guy just on the basis of him wanting to move on from MAD MEN (with Weiner's approval.)

It's probably apples & oranges comparing then & now, given how much more the shows are staff-written now ... but in terms of continuity and voice, I think Coon did a much better job than GR (no more 'space central' or whatever they were calling SFC each week, and certainly more consistency with Spock, though some of that was improved on the acting end too.)

 

[Maurice]

Hey Trevanian, is the script excerpt I posted the one you were referring to re wishing you still had it?

 

[Harvey]

Were their scripts? I was under the impression that the idea never made it beyond the treatment stage.

Here's a sample...

Should have been clearer; I meant was their a script for the JFK movie that was proposed?

 

[jpv2000]

Is that the one with the beach scene with Kirk and Alexandria swimming nude?

Say what?

Were their scripts? I was under the impression that the idea never made it beyond the treatment stage.

Here's a sample...
*SNIP*

Very cool. Thank you for posting that.

 

[Therin of Andor]

The script for The Voyage Home was not a mash-up, but rather a result of Meyer and Bennett collaborating. There is definitely a tonal difference between the acts, but it's not like they were acting independently of one another.

Correct. The "mash-up" script was ST II - where Harve Bennett pulled in one pitch about a weather machine, another featuring a young male Vulcan called Dr Savik, another with Kirk's ex, Dr Janet Wallace and their son, David, and a sequel to Khan's story - and smooshed them all together.

 

[Harvey]

Wasn't that Nicholas Meyer who wrote the new script based on all the elements liked from previous attempts, not Bennett?

 

[Therin of Andor]

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said that it was a mash-up, nor did I say they were acting independently.

You said "TVH is actually a combination of two scripts put together", and that is not true.

Wasn't that Nicholas Meyer who wrote the new script based on all the elements liked from previous attempts, not Bennett?

Yes. I said Bennett pulled in all the elements he thought worth salvaging from many proposals he had gathered.

And yes, he was working with Meyer by that time. Then Meyer wrote a full script in a hurry that incorporated them all.

 

[HaventGotALife]

William Shatner's Star Trek Movie Memories book is an interesting read that I'd highly recommend to anyone who likes Trek. But you might want to skip the book if you're a fan of Gene Roddenberry, whom Shatner (intentionally or no) paints as a woefully incompetent and obsolete writer and producer. According to Shatner, Roddenberry pitched the following idea for every single Trek film but was shot down by some combination of Harold Livingston, Nick Meyer, Shatner, Leonard Nimoy, Harve Bennett, and so on:

The crew of the USS Enterprise travels to 1963 to stop the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. But it turns out that saving Jack Kennedy's life has dire consequences. In the end, it's none other than Spock who fires shots from the grassy knoll that take the world leader down.

What's more, Roddenberry's behavior is that of a petulant child who's had his favorite toy taken away by his parents. While Phase II/The Motion Picture was in production, Roddenberry and Harold Livingston went out of their respective ways to sabotage each other's scripts. Paramount executives Michael Eisner and Frank Mancuso finally stopped Roddenberry in his tracks by telling him that his TMP script was "shit" and "made for television," opting instead to go with what Livingston wanted (but not before Livingston quit three different times to get away from Gene).

Obviously, Shatner's book is one person's perspective plus recollections from various people who were on the set at the time these events happened. Does anyone else know of information that supports or contradicts Shatner's telling of how each film was put together (and Roddenberry's diminishing input into each subsequent film)?

--Sran

I can't have an informed opinion of Gene Roddenberry and his methods. According to memory alpha, this is the episodes written by Roddenberry, who had 3 post-graduate degrees:

The Cage - 4 stars.
Mudd's Women - 1.5 stars.
Charlie X - 4 stars.
The Menagerie - 3.5 stars.
Return of the Archons - 4 stars.
Bread and Circuses - I don't remember much about it.
A Private, Little War - 4 stars.
The Omega Glory - 4 stars.
Assignment: Earth - I don't remember much about it.
The Savage Curtain - 4 stars.
Turnabout Intruder - I don't remember much about it.

So I like his episodes. They are intelligent, and different from the adventure we find in other incarnations of Trek.
I also like Hide and Q and Encounter at Farpoint, which he penned for Next Generation. I didn't like Datalore; I thought it had been done before too many times in too many television series.

So I don't think he was a bad writer. He had original ideas.

 

[Lance]

^ I agree with that assessment basically, HaventGotALife. Roddenberry gets a bad rap for a lot of his personal opinions, but siphon it down to just analyzing his scripts and it emerges that he was a writer whose output was workmanlike but usually servicable, sometimes extraordinary. His best Star Trek scripts are in fact among the very best the series produced IMO. I'd definitely put the original pilot episode in that catagory, truly extraordinary writing that looks like it was much simpler to pen than it probably really was. It's possibly one of Trek's strongest scripts, full of philosophy and true character building that is not executed in a heavy-handed way like some of Gene's later work, but instead solidifies to produce a satisfying whole.

I would like to qualify this by admitting that he definitely got lazy over time, and he was a bit of a mess in the 1970s and 1980s. Even before control of the franchise was ripped from him, his tussles over the authoriship of The Motion Picture are well documented. He had lost the plot a bit by then, and arguably hadn't regained it even when he was launching TNG. But he was old, and his health was failing. So it's kind of forgivable.

His last actual (unproduced) story submission for The Next Generation, "Ferengi Gold", was excrutiatingly bad.