What Happens After Death

[thestrangequark]

^Nice post, as I too wouldn't teleport if I had the option not to (though near the end I got a "first steps in the Borg's existence" vibe). The question he poses "Are you the information that constitutes your consciousness or the physical substrate?" reminds me of the "conservation of information" theory. Where is the line drawn defining death; when you die, or when your brain doesn't function the same?

And here we get to one of the biggest questions in the philosophy of artificial intelligence: if something behaves in a way that is indistinguishable from consciousness, is it then conscious?

As for the demarkation line for death, that is another controversy altogether.

That question can never be answered. Nobody returns from the dead, and even if someone did, how do you prove that it's the same consciousness?

Same goes for beaming. Someone gets beamed from A to B. How do you determine if his consciousness died and a new one was created?

I don't think anyone is saying that it can be answered with complete certainty. Nor is anyone arguing with complete certainty that there is no afterlife. The evidence points towards there being none, but the question can be framed as a non-falsifiable claim, and therefore beyond the realm of science. This doesn't make the existence of an afterlife any more likely, though. It's like Carl Sagan's invisible, silent, heatless dragon in the garage: you can propose the existence of a thing that cannot ever be proved, but that's not a very good reason to believe in that thing.

 

[Lindley]

In an infinite universe, it would be necessary for there to exist at some place and at some future time, an energy pattern exactly identical to the one that defines "you" right at this moment. One theory is that this could occur when matter is nearing infinite density just before the Big Crunch, for instance.

Would such a pattern believe itself to "be" you? Even if it did, would the actual "you" have any awareness of it?

Are you saying some alien has (or will have) my job, took the same steps I did throughout life, lives on a planet they call earth, has/will chat on a "What Happens After Death" thread with a poster named Lindley, and perceives existence "exactly" the same as I do?

I'm simply saying the matter and energy in your body can exist in a finite number of patterns. In an infinite universe, sooner or later the exact pattern you exist in now must occur again somewhere else.

 

[JarodRussell]

In an infinite universe, it would be necessary for there to exist at some place and at some future time, an energy pattern exactly identical to the one that defines "you" right at this moment. One theory is that this could occur when matter is nearing infinite density just before the Big Crunch, for instance.

Would such a pattern believe itself to "be" you? Even if it did, would the actual "you" have any awareness of it?

Are you saying some alien has (or will have) my job, took the same steps I did throughout life, lives on a planet they call earth, has/will chat on a "What Happens After Death" thread with a poster named Lindley, and perceives existence "exactly" the same as I do?

I'm simply saying the matter and energy in your body can exist in a finite number of patterns. In an infinite universe, sooner or later the exact pattern you exist in now must occur again somewhere else.

Not only that, in a truly infinite universe a finite pattern occurs infinite times.

 

[thestrangequark]

Though the evidence and consensus at the moment say that the universe is finite, do they not?

 

[Lindley]

Though the evidence and consensus at the moment say that the universe is finite, do they not?

The observable universe is certainly finite. Beyond that I'm not sure.

 

[iguana_tonante]

General feeling is that it's finite but boundless. But don't quote me on that.

 

[bbjeg]

There is no way to prove it's not boundless, but what if it wasn't? What would happen when a universe bumps into another?

 

[iguana_tonante]

Since there is no evidence of "other" universes except as a very tentative theoretical explanation for some weird quirks of cosmology, I'm rather certain the answer is "fuck me if we know".

 

[Captrek]

There is no way to prove it's not boundless, but what if it wasn't? What would happen when a universe bumps into another?

The Big Bang, according to one theory.

We can't currently prove that the universe is boundless, but someday we might. In fact, according to an episode of Through the Wormhole, at least one scientist believes he has found such proof. I'm not sure of the details, but something to do with patterns in the Cosmic Background Radiation that look the same in opposite directions, suggesting not only that the universe is finite and boundless, but also that it's not much larger (about 20% larger) than the observable universe.

 

[publiusr]

Heh, the continuity problem is why I find the prospect of Star Trek-style transporters horrifying.

That wouldn't bother me so much, especially if I could make copies of myself at the other end. I would die if I could know that there would be, say, one of me in every field of research. A version of me who studied different kinds of music--a "me" for every task.

At the end of life, a library of me would be downloaded. All this for the price of instant vaporization.

I would walk to my end in a booth in a moment, and not hesitate, knowing my worldview would go on, my interests, my whimsey.

It beats it winding down due to the age and poverty which afflict me now.

Irrelevance is worse than death.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Heh, the continuity problem is why I find the prospect of Star Trek-style transporters horrifying.

That wouldn't bother me so much, especially if I could make copies of myself at the other end. I would die if I could know that there would be, say, one of me in every field of research. A version of me who studied different kinds of music--a "me" for every task.

At the end of life, a library of me would be downloaded. All this for the price of instant vaporization.

I would walk to my end in a booth in a moment, and not hesitate, knowing my worldview would go on, my interests, my whimsey.

It beats it winding down due to the age and poverty which afflict me now.

Irrelevance is worse than death.

It would be like just closing your eyes and then opening then again from the point of view of the copy.

When you think about it maybe that's what happens when you go to sleep. The "current you" is only you for a few hours, then a copy of you restored when you wake up.

 

[thestrangequark]

^Except there's not continuity problem when it comes to sleep, because the brain is active the entire time.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

^Except there's not continuity problem when it comes to sleep, because the brain is active the entire time.

But consciousness is not.

 

[Captrek]

^Except there's not continuity problem when it comes to sleep, because the brain is active the entire time.

But consciousness is not.

Can we prove that there is no awareness during sleep? Maybe we just don't remember it. There is certainly a form of awareness when dreaming, and it is mostly forgotten by the time we wake. Is it possible that there is also a forgotten awareness when not dreaming?

 

[1001001]

What would happen when a universe bumps into another?

According to The Ekpyrotic model, it creates a new universe.

http://www.phschool.com/science/science_news/articles/branes_collide.html

 

[thestrangequark]

^Except there's not continuity problem when it comes to sleep, because the brain is active the entire time.

But consciousness is not.

So? Your state of consciousness varies widely throughout the entire day, whether you are awake or asleep. The continuous narrative of consciousness that we presume is largely an illusion. The brain is intact, active, and functioning at different levels of consciousness while you sleep. It learns, it remembers, it thinks, it has ideas, it comprehends the passage of time. Ultimately, you are less conscious than you think you are while you are awake, and more conscious than you think you are while you are asleep. There really aren't that many major differences between sleeping and waking brains, and there certainly isn't a continuity problem.

 

[publiusr]

I remember getting wisdom teeth extracted, and it was as if I just didn't exist. I have never had such a null feeling. I don't know if you can really tell if you are sleeping, but it isn't the same as dead. And even when under, I somehow was guided to my feet to a waiting room to wake up--even though I don't remember it.

There have been times where I felt as if I were going to sleep too fast, and would wake up, and drift to sleep more slowly.

 

[thestrangequark]

^Exactly. Anesthesia is a much better analogy to the continuity problem than sleep. It is a very different experience to sleeping. It's still not a perfect comparison, though, because the physical brain never ceases to exist.

 

[Gryffindorian]

Since there is no evidence of "other" universes except as a very tentative theoretical explanation for some weird quirks of cosmology, I'm rather certain the answer is "fuck me if we know".

This!

 

[bbjeg]

^Pooling ideas are fine but I think that's the overall message that's being said.