Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

[DonIago]

If you're going to discuss politeness, it doesn't seem very polite to me to cast others' disagreements with you in phrases such as "they had to complain", suggesting their concerns were without merit.

People have the right to discuss concerns they have with the mods. Sorry it boomeranged on you, but it sounds like you created the situation to begin with by scolding another member.

 

[JWolf]

If you're going to discuss politeness, it doesn't seem very polite to me to cast others' disagreements with you in phrases such as "they had to complain", suggesting their concerns were without merit.

People have the right to discuss concerns they have with the mods. Sorry it boomeranged on you, but it sounds like you created the situation to begin with by scolding another member.

It didn't boomerang on me. It boomeranged on US. Now we have this six months rule that makes it open season on book spoiling.

 

[DonIago]

You mean the rule that most of the posters here don't seem to have a problem with?

 

[Scout101]

That's how a major spoiler for Revelation and Dust came into being.

In a SPOILER thread. Which was also a REVIEW thread. To be blunt, what kind of idiot reads a thread CLEARLY tagged as such if they haven't read the book yet, and have a problem with spoilers? That wound is completely self-inflicted. If you don't have the willpower or sense of mind to avoid something that obvious, there's nothing anyone could do to save you from yourself. You'd likely end up accidentally reading the Wikipedia summary next...

How about a little personal responsibility here?

Something big happened in that book, and you have a problem with people discussing it in a thread marked Review AND Spoiler? How do you imagine this forum should work? Everything hidden behind spoiler tags? I'd wager a paycheck that that would kill the forum much faster than this perceived injustice. You have a problem with the time limit, so can't discuss anything about anything, as it's likely a spoiler for something in this new unified timeline.

Why not just lock every thread when it starts, and just make the review thread a thumbs up/down voting thread? Or would too many thumbs up or down spoil the book?

Come on. People need to not intentionally be dicks in here, but you're WAY too far on the other end of that spectrum. Gotta take some personal responsibility. Reasonable efforts were made to warn people, and if they blew through that, it's on them.

How about in the future, you consider the TrekLit forum link the first level of spoiler tag? If you click that, it exposes you to the chance to be only one click away from spoilers. If you are allergic, don't click the first link unless you're caught up.

In general, since the books are tied together, it's pretty safe that if you're not up to date, you shouldn't click on anything past where you've read, as it likely mentions the points that LED to where that book went as well. Again, shouldn't have to mention that, but since you brought up a non-spoiler that was more than 2 years old, seems that you needed to hear it again. We continue to debate the definition of spoiler here as well. IMO, it should have to, you know, SPOIL the book if you know that info. minor, non-plot items aren't spoilers. If you know the twist to Sixth Sense before you watch it, that's a spoiler. Knowing that the movie has Bruce Willis in it is not. Even knowing that the kid sees ghosts isn't really a spoiler. They even show it in the preview. So if you want to go off on spoilers, they need to be big, and even plot-related. Not knowing whether that applies is NOT a defense to go off on everyone. If they say it wasn't a big deal, maybe it wasn't? (the DTI one, not the TF:R&D one). You're making EVERYTHING a spoiler, which means you can't discuss anything on a discussion board. Doesn't really work.

Why would you read a spoiler thread for a book you haven't read yet? Especially if you're a few books behind, and haven't read the books leading UP to it yet either?

If this is the way it's going to be from now on, I do think a lot of people won't be coming to read about the new books until they've finished reading.

I know you intended that as some sort of dire warning, but I kinda interpret that as, well, duh. You SHOULDN'T read threads about books you haven't read yet if you're allergic to any spoiler, no matter how minor. Why is that bad? That's how it SHOULD work!

I like reading that people are looking forward to reading the new book. But if you go into the thread and get spoiled outright because someone is too lazy (or rude) to use spoiler codes, that sort of thing won't happen.

Again, why are you in the SPOILER REVIEW thread if that bothers you? Stick to threads for books you've read, or don't intend to.

Also, please don't make thread topics that are spoilery as that is not possible to not read other then not coming here.

ONLY thing you've said that I agree with. And so does everyone else, as no one's fighting you here. And mods fix it when it happens, so not sure why you even brought this up.

 

[Relayer1]

As the person who inadvertantly kicked this off and then asked for clarification, I'd like to suggest that common sense be exercised along with whatever time limit we work to.

I like it on here and don't want to spoil the atmosphere. People have strong views but it would be a shame if this er, spoiled things. Lets take some if the heat out of the discussion. This isn't TNZ.

 

[Deano2099]

You mean the rule that most of the posters here don't seem to have a problem with?

It's selection bias. Those that don't like have left already.

There's being sensible obviously, but what I'm trying to get at is say there's a thread about Vanguard discussing the series as a whole.

And someone says something like the following, but without the spoiler tags.

Spoiler: Destiny and Vanguard

Maybe the Shedai descended from the Tholians in the same way the Borg came from the Caelier

Are people seriously arguing that shouldn't be spoilered? Sure it's old, but the books aren't even related and people won't read stuff in order. And it totally spoils the big twist of Destiny. And try and bear in mind that even if you are not arguing that, some of your fellow posters are, and they've made it quite clear that unless the rules tell them otherwise they're not going to use spoiler code, which means it absolutely needs to be in the rules to cater for people like Halliwell.

 

[Scout101]

Just to continue to poke at it, you realize the book you're trying to hide the spoiler from came out in 2008, right? At what point do we assume that you're either caught up, or not GOING to catch up any time soon?

I get the example of spoiler in a thread that's not specific to the thread topic, but that happened 5 years ago, and the series was a pretty huge impact on the entire rest of the book line. Since it touched about everything, going to come up occasionally, no matter how much you try to avoid it.

to have SOME sort of basis for disucssion, there's gotta be some common ground to discuss. If we're trying to protect someone 5 years behind, it's nonsense to even HAVE a discussion forum, as what's still in-bounds? The first half-dozen numbered TOS books? What if someone hasn't gotten around to reading The Entropy Effect yet? No discussion at all? Are we allowed to discuss ANY DS9 books, since they clearly have things in a different point than when the series ended? Can we even mention

Spoiler: Character

Sisko

at all? Would make discussing RBoE difficult...

Sure, try and keep the discussion relevent to the thread topic, to give people a chance to avoid spoilers by skipping the threads they're behind on. But at some point, if you're that far behind, it's on YOU to stay out of ANY thread that's past what you've read.

Decent rule of thumb, anyway: if you're behind, don't read a thread for ANYTHING that was released after your current reading point. No matter what series. Because there's a lot of bleed-over (mostly in TNG era, obviously), so things may come out. If you're 5 years behind, may want to avoid everything other than the release listing thread...

 

[JWolf]

I agree that it's totally unfair to toss in spoilers for books that are not part of the thread's subject. To be discussing Vanguard and then toss in a major possible series spoiling spoiler (for some) for Destiny without a spoiler code is wrong no matter how old the Destiny trilogy is.

The thing is, this rule that says its OK to spoil books older then six months is wrong. It needs to be repealed. We need to put in place a rule that says to use spoiler codes. Be sensible.

As Dano2099 has said, some of the regulars have already left. or are not as active. Why? My guess is because of you (you know who you are) that don't care if you ruin books for others. Please stop this nonsense and use spoilers where appropriate.

This "Oh goody, this book is more then six months old so let's put major spoilers in places they don't belong out in the open so we (or I) can ruin it for others who have yet to read it" attitude has got to stop. You are driving people away. Do you really want to do that?

 

[DonIago]

Do you have evidence that anyone's actually taken the approach you mention in your last paragraph?

 

[JWolf]

Do you have evidence that anyone's actually taken the approach you mention in your last paragraph?

Not 100%. But given some of the attitudes here, I think it's more then a reasonable assumption. There are no apologies for the spoilers and those who posted them do not seem to give a damn.

They use the excuse that because the book is "old" it's OK to toss in spoilers whenever and wherever.

 

[DonIago]

I'd say if you really think it's a valid issue then you should poll the userbase asking whether they feel 6 months is a reasonable timeframe. I might recommend proposing other timeframes as well.

Not that it will necessarily lead to a policy revision, as that's up to the mods, but at least then you could point to the poll as an indicator of what people would prefer to see in a spoiler policy.

Until then I think you might come across more favorably if you made more of an effort to assume good faith of your fellow posters.

 

[JWolf]

I'd say if you really think it's a valid issue then you should poll the userbase asking whether they feel 6 months is a reasonable timeframe. I might recommend proposing other timeframes as well.

Not that it will necessarily lead to a policy revision, as that's up to the mods, but at least then you could point to the poll as an indicator of what people would prefer to see in a spoiler policy.

Until then I think you might come across more favorably if you made more of an effort to assume good faith of your fellow posters.

I base what I say on the actions of others. There are some that have spoiled things in ways that have have no been done. Those people don't give a damn and will most likely do it again given the chance. Others I know will put in spoiler codes and will do so to be polite.

Personally, I'm for dumping a time period and putting in spoilers wherever they are appropriate. As I said before, it's only two mouse clicks at most to get to the spoiler dialogue.

 

[JeBuS]

I'd say if you really think it's a valid issue then you should poll the userbase asking whether they feel 6 months is a reasonable timeframe. I might recommend proposing other timeframes as well.

Not that it will necessarily lead to a policy revision, as that's up to the mods, but at least then you could point to the poll as an indicator of what people would prefer to see in a spoiler policy.

Until then I think you might come across more favorably if you made more of an effort to assume good faith of your fellow posters.

I base what I say on the actions of others. There are some that have spoiled things in ways that have have no been done. Those people don't give a damn and will most likely do it again given the chance. Others I know will put in spoiler codes and will do so to be polite.

Personally, I'm for dumping a time period and putting in spoilers wherever they are appropriate. As I said before, it's only two mouse clicks at most to get to the spoiler dialogue.

Griefers will always be griefers, no matter how you change the rules.

 

[DonIago]

I base what I say on the actions of others. There are some that have spoiled things in ways that have have no been done. Those people don't give a damn and will most likely do it again given the chance. Others I know will put in spoiler codes and will do so to be polite.

Personally, I'm for dumping a time period and putting in spoilers wherever they are appropriate. As I said before, it's only two mouse clicks at most to get to the spoiler dialogue.

What did I just say about assuming good faith?

Unless these people actually stated that they don't give a damn, I don't think you should be assuming to know their perspective.

And who decides when it is "appropriate" to put in a spoiler? The mods, who've already spoken. If you disagree, I already gave you a suggestion.

You can't make a policy that uses relative terms such as "appropriate" because that allows everyone to draw their own conclusions.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Not 100%. But given some of the attitudes here, I think it's more then a reasonable assumption. There are no apologies for the spoilers and those who posted them do not seem to give a damn.

It's inappropriate for you to assume you know what each person is thinking merely because of what they've posted on a message board. People make mistakes. Not everyone who posts material related to a novel does so with the intent of ruining the book for someone who hasn't read it. Most people in this community are polite and well-intentioned. That you would suggest otherwise without proof is ridiculous.

They use the excuse that because the book is "old" it's OK to toss in spoilers whenever and wherever.

The mods have already decided to go with six months as a reasonable period of time in which the spoiler tags should be used. It's not for you to continue arguing that the policy should be changed. The time for dissent and debate is before a decision is made. Not after.

I base what I say on the actions of others. There are some that have spoiled things in ways that have have no been done. Those people don't give a damn and will most likely do it again given the chance. Others I know will put in spoiler codes and will do so to be polite.

Again, it's inappropriate to assume that people are intentionally trying to spoil a book because they didn't use the spoiler codes. You cannot prove that a particular poster purposely failed to use the correct tags in his or her post. Making unfounded accusations isn't going to win you any friends around here.

Personally, I'm for dumping a time period and putting in spoilers wherever they are appropriate. As I said before, it's only two mouse clicks at most to get to the spoiler dialogue.

You've made this clear. But the mods have already made their decision. It's not for you to continue questioning or criticizing the decision. If you believe the decision was inappropriate, I'd suggest polling other members to see what they think is fair. If the data contradicts what the moderator staff has chosen, you can present your data as a reason why the policy should be changed.

What did I just say about assuming good faith?

Unless these people actually stated that they don't give a damn, I don't think you should be assuming to know their perspective.

And who decides when it is "appropriate" to put in a spoiler? The mods, who've already spoken. If you disagree, I already gave you a suggestion.

You can't make a policy that uses relative terms such as "appropriate" because that allows everyone to draw their own conclusions.

This post captures my feelings on this subject precisely. The moderators have made a decision that they believe is reasonable. It would seem that there are members of this forum who disagree, but none of them have been able to present any evidence to suggest that a new policy should be implemented. They've merely been repeating the same argument over and over again as though they believe repeatedly trying to force the square peg into the round hole will eventually make a difference. What was it Einstein said about insanity? I think we're seeing an interesting illustration of his point on this board.

--Sran

 

[JD]

I'd say if you really think it's a valid issue then you should poll the userbase asking whether they feel 6 months is a reasonable timeframe. I might recommend proposing other timeframes as well.

Not that it will necessarily lead to a policy revision, as that's up to the mods, but at least then you could point to the poll as an indicator of what people would prefer to see in a spoiler policy.

Until then I think you might come across more favorably if you made more of an effort to assume good faith of your fellow posters.

I base what I say on the actions of others. There are some that have spoiled things in ways that have have no been done. Those people don't give a damn and will most likely do it again given the chance. Others I know will put in spoiler codes and will do so to be polite.

Personally, I'm for dumping a time period and putting in spoilers wherever they are appropriate. As I said before, it's only two mouse clicks at most to get to the spoiler dialogue.

And you wonder why people don't take you seriously?
Just from what I've seen around here I can pretty much guarantee you that every time someone has posted a spoiler without tagging it, they were not doing it to purposefully spoil a book for other people. Every time I've seen it happen it's been for one of 3 reasons:
1)They didn't think it was a spoiler
2)They didn't know how to use the spoiler code
3)The spoiler code didn't work and the poster didn't realize it until it was already posted
And most of the time when #2 has happened the poster has said something along the lines of "THIS IS A SPOILER, BUT I DON'T KNOW HOW TO CODE IT".
Can you provide one definite example of someone maliciously posting spoilers in order to "ruin it" for other readers? I don't remember ever coming across that in the entire time I've posted here. And this is not rhetorical, I want a real concrete example.
I'm one of the people who agrees with the six month rule, and maybe I've developed a persecution complex, but I got the distinct feeling that some of what you've said was directed at me.

 

[Deano2099]

The mods have already decided to go with six months as a reasonable period of time in which the spoiler tags should be used. It's not for you to continue arguing that the policy should be changed. The time for dissent and debate is before a decision is made. Not after.

I'm sure glad you weren't alive during slavery.

 

[Deano2099]

Just from what I've seen around here I can pretty much guarantee you that every time someone has posted a spoiler without tagging it, they were not doing it to purposefully spoil a book for other people. Every time I've seen it happen it's been for one of 3 reasons:
1)They didn't think it was a spoiler
2)They didn't know how to use the spoiler code
3)The spoiler code didn't work and the poster didn't realize it until it was already posted
And most of the time when #2 has happened the poster has said something along the lines of "THIS IS A SPOILER, BUT I DON'T KNOW HOW TO CODE IT".
Can you provide one definite example of someone maliciously posting spoilers in order to "ruin it" for other readers? I don't remember ever coming across that in the entire time I've posted here. And this is not rhetorical, I want a real concrete example.
I'm one of the people who agrees with the six month rule, and maybe I've developed a persecution complex, but I got the distinct feeling that some of what you've said was directed at me.

You're right, but as far as I'm aware that's because in the past these spoilers got reported and fixed by mods. I'm acting on the assumption here that this will no longer happen, as it's no longer breaking any rules. Nor will it happen if someone posts a spoiler for reasons 1, 2 or 3.

 

[Deano2099]

Sure, try and keep the discussion relevent to the thread topic, to give people a chance to avoid spoilers by skipping the threads they're behind on. But at some point, if you're that far behind, it's on YOU to stay out of ANY thread that's past what you've read.

Decent rule of thumb, anyway: if you're behind, don't read a thread for ANYTHING that was released after your current reading point. No matter what series. Because there's a lot of bleed-over (mostly in TNG era, obviously), so things may come out. If you're 5 years behind, may want to avoid everything other than the release listing thread...

And like I've said, if that's the board you want to run then fine. But a bit of consideration and you wouldn't have driven away people like me and many others (this board is much smaller than it used to be) that can't be up to date on everything. But then seeing the reaction of many people to being so much as asked to show a small amount of consideration for other people is enough to put most people off wanting to be part of this 'community' anyway. Regardless of if they want to know what happens to

Spoiler: character

Worf

at the end of The Fall or not.

 

[Scout101]

if absolutely everything is spoiler coded, and it's limited to just thumbs up/down, would there be a community worth saving? If the community can't talk about the new book that most of us just read, what's the point? We ALREADY take steps to protect the late arrivals, but at some point, something has to give. JWolf wants to use Destiny as an example, but if you can't even talk about a book that came out 5 years ago without spoiler Nazis complaining about not coding things, what's left to discuss? That book was forever ago, and if you're ~30 books behind, do you have reasonable expectations of ever catching up? If you do, religiously following a forum where people are years ahead of you is a BAD idea. Or only search out threads for books you've completed. Going past that is on YOU, you took a risk KNOWING the thread was past your reading level. How much consideration should others take that someone else will purposely damage themselves and blame us for it?

Why is personal responsibility not a consideration, and it's on everyone else to watch out for YOU? Consider the Trek Lit forum the first level of spoiler code. Go past that, you take a small risk of seeing something you don't want to. Go past THAT and click a link to a spoiler review thread for a book you haven't read? Not much we could do to save you there. The big spoilers, even in there, are often coded. Short of coding the entire forum, what more do you want? And then you'd just click on that and blame us for not being cryptic enough anyway...

How have we driven you away, if you're still posting in here prolifically? And for bashing people for not knowing how to use spoiler code, seems you should learn to multi-quote.