Where does this come from? From what we see of the ship's speed it does just fine. It doesn't take weeks to get anywhere.
Or that the shields don't cover the entire length of the drill.
Who would win in a firefight? Nero's Mining ship vs USS Vengeance?
- Thread starter Lek
- Start date
Where does this come from? From what we see of the ship's speed it does just fine. It doesn't take weeks to get anywhere.
Or that the shields don't cover the entire length of the drill.
It takes the rig much, much longer to get from former Vulcan to soon-to-be-former Earth than it takes the crippled Enterprise to do a detour first to Delta Vega and then towards Laurentius. Spock's craft is supposed to be "fastest", so it should leave a crippled 23rd century starship (supposedly mostly limited to warp 4) let alone the demonstrably inferior mining rig in its wake.
The only way out of that is to assume that Spock's little craft is actually very slow, and "fastest" only means that Spock couldn't get his hands on anything faster because of being such a pariah.
Quite so. But if the drill wasn't shielded, why didn't Pike destroy it right after arriving at Vulcan? He supposedly had weapons remaining after the first missile hit; sending a skydiving demolition team if phasers and photon torpedoes would do the trick seems senseless, then. Surely Nero would respond to the loss of his drill equally violently regardless of the choice of weapons used against it; the skydivers would offer no additional stealth or surprise there, no additional safety to the crew of the Enterprise. Plus, by using photon torpedoes, Pike would avoid ensuring his own death in the hands of Nero's torturers, and would instead have a fighting chance aboard his own starship.
It rather seems there was something stopping starship weapons from being used against the drill from afar, whereas attacks by small craft or handguns from close range were all right. How could this be explained? And why didn't either Vulcan or Earth strike back with small craft or handguns, but had to wait for Kirk, Sulu and finally Spock to do it?
If the drill e.g. emits such a powerful jamming noise that starship weapons cannot lock onto it from a distance, then this might work in the mining rig's favor in the duel with the Vengeance...
Timo Saloniemi
First, the flashback scene was condensed. You know, when a movie cuts from one scene to another 20 years later, it doesn't mean there was time travel.
Second, she was thrown back after the destruction of the Hobus star, not Romulus. You are confusing two events.
Third, read the comic if you want the actual sequence of events.
False on all counts.
How packed the mind meld was is irrelevant, because any gaps in the events would be explicitly in contradiction with what Spock said. He said that he observed the destruction of Romulus; had only moments to spare until he created the timehole that somehow made things better; and set back for Vulcan in his very fast ship, at which point Nero intercepted him and both fell in the timehole right next to Romulus.
Where the supernova blew was not revealed in the movie, and is irrelevant. Spock's timehole was next to planet Romulus, because that's the planet whose destruction Nero saw with his own eyes, as per his own words - placing Nero at a specific spot at a specific time and giving him no chance to be elsewhere for a refit.
And the comic is shit. It explicitly contradicts the movie on all counts and cannot take place in the same reality.
Neither of these is a reason to slow down, though. Neither has anything to do with how the ship moves, after all.
So we're left with two options there: Nero did the above two things at standstill, and then rapidly moved to Earth - or Nero did the things while in motion towards Earth. It's a bit difficult to see why the former would be advantageous.
Timo Saloniemi
How packed the mind meld was is irrelevant, because any gaps in the events would be explicitly in contradiction with what Spock said. He said that he observed the destruction of Romulus; had only moments to spare until he created the timehole that somehow made things better; and set back for Vulcan in his very fast ship, at which point Nero intercepted him and both fell in the timehole right next to Romulus.
Where the supernova blew was not revealed in the movie, and is irrelevant. Spock's timehole was next to planet Romulus, because that's the planet whose destruction Nero saw with his own eyes, as per his own words - placing Nero at a specific spot at a specific time and giving him no chance to be elsewhere for a refit.
And the comic is shit. It explicitly contradicts the movie on all counts and cannot take place in the same reality.
Neither of these is a reason to slow down, though. Neither has anything to do with how the ship moves, after all.
So we're left with two options there: Nero did the above two things at standstill, and then rapidly moved to Earth - or Nero did the things while in motion towards Earth. It's a bit difficult to see why the former would be advantageous.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo, you do realize that if you held the entire Trek franchise to the literal standard you are Spock's (deliberately impressionistic) mind meld, that you'd have a nervous breakdown? You don't like it, so you absolutely refuse to suspend disbelief. That's the only difference between it and the rest.
Hey, the only real reason not to believe literally in what Spock says is if you want to believe in the comic. Which IMHO isn't worth anybody's while.
There's no reason to believe in any Hobus star, because that just makes the supernova thing all the more implausible. There's no reason to believe in Nero getting a refit for his mining rig, least of all with Borg technology, because we witness no results of a refit, least of all anything hinting at the Borg.
Certainly we have little reason to think LaForge designed the Jellyfish or any such nonsense, but at least that doesn't make things blatantly inconsistent with what we saw in the movie.
Timo Saloniemi
There's no reason to believe in any Hobus star, because that just makes the supernova thing all the more implausible. There's no reason to believe in Nero getting a refit for his mining rig, least of all with Borg technology, because we witness no results of a refit, least of all anything hinting at the Borg.
Certainly we have little reason to think LaForge designed the Jellyfish or any such nonsense, but at least that doesn't make things blatantly inconsistent with what we saw in the movie.
Timo Saloniemi
Actually, during the mind meld, even that is refuted a bit, as Spock says something that they (the Vulcans) outfitted their most advanced ship, just basing it on context where he's talking about going from the Romulans to the Vulcans about his plan.
J
James
Guest
Vengeance, all of those phasers torpedoes and drones would easily take out the Narada.
What does this even mean? Of course there's a reason to believe in the Hobus star. That's the star that goes supernova. A scenario which ignores the Hobus star "explicitly contradicts the movie" and "cannot take place in the same reality". Unless, of course, Spock is a very silly person - but I don't get that vibe from Spock.You must want to believe in the comic then, because you refuse to believe literally in what Spock says about the Hobus star.
Timo said:
I'm not entirely convinced that warp factors scale the same way in the Abrams timeline.
Timo said:
But is that what we see in practice? When the Narada follows the Jellyfish into warp, does the Jellyfish leave the Narada in its wake?
Timo said:
We appear to see similar performance from the two late-24th-century ships.
Last edited:
Any star other than the actual Romulan homestar could explode freely and create no problems for the planet Romulus for the next fifty years. Only the homestar explosion could create a shockwave that pulverizes Romulus during Spock's trip from Vulcan.
And while there may be "subspace shockwaves" and the like in the Trek universe, we actually see the wave that destroys Romulus. There's nothing superluminal about that one!
Besides, if the shockwave pulverizes planets, how could Spock fly through it? He would have to deliver his red matter from the outside - and delivering it in a star system different than the one where the explosion occurred would mean delivering it lightyears away from the actual source. How could it be of any help in negating the entire explosion, then? (This regardless of how it's supposed to negate anything in the first place...)
How would that be relevant to anything? We hear that the Enterprise is "limited" to that speed, regardless of what the speed is - the hero ship is crippled. And despite this, she overtakes Nero. It's not a matter of warp factors, it's a matter of cripples speeding past the mining rig.
No - but if she did, she would have failed in her mission. After all, Spock wants to goad Nero away from Earth, and he couldn't do that if he escaped from Nero during the first three nanoseconds of the chase.
We never get a good measure of the speed of the Jellyfish, leaving things nicely ambiguous. She goes from Vulcan to Romulus (not Hobus or Bogus or any such nonsense) in a trip of unknown duration. She is chased by Nero into a timehole at the very moment she departs from that timehole, offering us no opportunity to observe a chase or to compare speeds. And she is received by Nero at the other end again at point blank ranges, immediately tractored, and not allowed to demonstrate her propulsive capabilities. So the "fast Jellyfish model" and "slow Jellyfish model" are both valid speculation - it just seems that assuming that fast really means fast by 24th century standards is the simpler way to go.
But as with all chases, one side chooses the speed. And barring special circumstances, the one doing the choosing is the faster party. When we see a chase where the prey is not captured, then the prey is the faster party, and we can't tell whether by a small or large margin.
Timo Saloniemi
Only the homestar explosion destroys Romulus pretty much instantly, making it ridiculous for Spock to even assume it could be saved in the first place. Thus, by moving the location of the star we contradict the movie and insist on a scenario which "cannot take place in the same reality". Then again, perhaps Spock really is a very silly person. And we've already seen revisionists move Spock and Nero's emergence points - to the very same location, no less - so why not move Hobus there as well? Why have a plot dealing with four distinct locations in space, when you can have just one?
Timo said:
"The fictional long-range supernova invented by the writers doesn't act the way the movie says it does, it acts the way I say it does."
Timo said:
"The fictional long-range supernova invented by the writers doesn't act the way the movie says it does, it acts the way I say it does."
Timo said:
One mo time...
Timo said:
No. We hear "If Mister Scott can get us to warp factor four".
Timo said:
Nero goes in first. Are we now moving around the chronology of the film as well, and not just the locations of stars?
Timo said:
Don't late-24th-century Romulans like to go fast?
Timo said:
Every kid is special.
Timo said:
We don't see Spock evade capture in any legitimate sense. We see the Narada enter the same region of local space and Spock engage in a head-on suicide attack.
I suggest reading the Memory Beta on the Hobus Star if you haven't read Countdown or played STO.
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Hobus
Also this passage is from Memory Alpha regarding the Hobus Star
In Star Trek: Countdown, the official comic book prequel to Star Trek, the star which went supernova and destroyed Romulus was called the Hobus star. It is explained that the Hobus supernova was unlike any previously seen: as the supernova grew, it converted mass into energy, which increased its power and allowed it to expand. As a result, its threat reached beyond the Hobus system and potentially the entire galaxy.
The Hobus Star supernova traveled through subspace at multiwarp speeds and gathered energy with everything it destroys. Does that sound stupid to anyone else?
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Hobus
Also this passage is from Memory Alpha regarding the Hobus Star
In Star Trek: Countdown, the official comic book prequel to Star Trek, the star which went supernova and destroyed Romulus was called the Hobus star. It is explained that the Hobus supernova was unlike any previously seen: as the supernova grew, it converted mass into energy, which increased its power and allowed it to expand. As a result, its threat reached beyond the Hobus system and potentially the entire galaxy.
The Hobus Star supernova traveled through subspace at multiwarp speeds and gathered energy with everything it destroys. Does that sound stupid to anyone else?
It's on par with the rest of Trek's bad science. Take a look at the Praxis explosiom from STVI, which somehow hit the Excelsior (in Federation space!), wreck Kronos' ozone layer and do not a lot else. Or the Nexus, which seemed to go from warp speed to super slow planetary flybys on a whim. Or the Whale Probe, which ignored all laws of physics and played whale music from space to be heard for sectors around.
For a galaxy once threatened by a giant space amoeba, a supernova really isn't that much of a stretch.
For a galaxy once threatened by a giant space amoeba, a supernova really isn't that much of a stretch.
Pretty sure pitting the Narada against the Vengeance is like pitting Bagger 288 against the USS Iowa.
Wow, a contradiction in Star Trek. Tha'll be the day, right ?
Spock says he has "little time", which, you might notice, isn't a unit of time.
You should watch the movie again and refresh your memory before trying to argue from it.
Your opinion on the comic doesn't make it false. Also, again, that would mean Trek is A LOT of different realities.
Similar threads
