Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

[Hartzilla2007]

The Butlerian Jihad was never a war involving Man against Machine (in the form of robots, androids, meks, etc.). The Butlerian Jihad was Some Men Who Consider Thinking Machines Good vs Other Men Who Consider Thinking Machines Evil.

Wait, so the Dune Universe ended up the way it did because The Butlerian Jihad was basically the war where luddites took over the universe?

 

[Anwar]

I don't know if it's canon or not, but the extended Prologue to the Lynch Dune movie semi-explained the Butlerian Jihad (it didn't call it that) as being a war between men and men who were using Thinking Machines to dominate others.

It was man vs man, with the thinking Machines being the weapons of war used by the "bad" side. The Machines weren't in an of themselves evil, just being used for it.

 

[Marc]

Apologies if this has already been mentioned (haven't read the entire thread), but KJA/BH didn't have the first clue what the Butlerian Jihad was about. A bunch of us "Orthodox Herbertarians" (readers who consider the Frank Herbert novels and the Dune Encyclopedia as authentic Dune - the Encyclopedia because it was sanctioned by Frank Herbert - and the nuDune books as bad fanfic that somehow got professionally published) used to argue this a lot on the old Dunenovels forum.

Except the Dune Encyclopedia has been de-canonised courtesy of a couple of authors who don't their novels contradicted.

 

[Reverend]

Wasn't the whole bit about Old Earth being glassed to end the war an invention of the prequel novels too? I'm pretty sure there's mention of Old Earth still being a place where humans live in the appendices.

Whichever way you cut it, Brian & Kevin didn't do their homework.

 

[Tom Hendricks]

A bunch of us "Orthodox Herbertarians" (readers who consider the Frank Herbert novels and the Dune Encyclopedia as authentic Dune - the Encyclopedia because it was sanctioned by Frank Herbert - and the nuDune books as bad fanfic that somehow got professionally published) used to argue this a lot on the old Dunenovels forum.

I just changed my Facebook religious status from Atheist to Orthodox Herbertairan after reading this.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

We reach! Oops, wrong Herbert.

Pinkie and the Brian's oeuvre appears to apply Stalinist revisionism to Frank Herbert's intentions but they have access to his notes and we don't so *shrug*. Shallow doesn't cut it -- their stuff has no depth.

 

[Kirkman1987]

I'm more of a yellowed paperback kind of guy, but I came across this edition today and my dollars and I soon parted.

Looks like I have the excuse I need to read this again.

 

[Timewalker]

I hate to slip into spoilery territory here because I may still read the trilogy...but really!? A war against machines?

You're right, nowhere in the references to the Butlerian Jihad in Frank's books does it ever sound like it could be a war against machines. Hmm, that is weird.

They basically turned nuDune into a transporter-accident mess combining Dune, Star Wars, and the Terminator. Add cannibalism, zero understanding of how relativity works when you have neither FTL technology nor spacefolding, a psychotic robot, cybermeks who took on the names of ancient deities, and Norma Cenva (a deus-ex-machina character who saves the day EVERY DAMN BOOK after she becomes immortal and god-like)... as I first said years ago, on the Dunenovels forum, it's a tragic waste of trees.

I thought it was pretty evident that the Butlerian Jihad was man against man, and a matter of conflicting philosophies. A consequence of it was the destruction of thinking machines, but that's no more a war against machines than World War II was a war against buildings.

You'd think Herbert's own son would have understood what his father meant!

I think BH has a greater understanding than KJA. BH's biography of Frank Herbert (Dreamer of Dune) was excellent.

Brian Herbert has shown zero respect for the integrity of his father's body of work. He has published stories that not only contradict the original series, but will have diluted the franchise by outnumbering the original novels. He has pissed on his father's legacy, and is worthy of artistic contempt.

My two pence .

As I said above, I think that the occasional good parts of nuDune came from BH. KJA wanted to cash in on churning out more Dune books, but he wanted BH's name attached to it, to lend credibility. Other members of FH's family are also involved in promoting these books. FH's grandson, Byron Merritt, ran the Dunenovels forum, and was also a member at my old Arrakeen forum for awhile.

i know the 'story' is that some notes were discovered and a floppy disk in a safe deposit box was found to contain Frank Herbert's outlines...but i've always wondered if any of these notes were about retconning existing books or going crazy with thinking machines.

Personally, I believe one of two things: either the notes never existed (hard to believe, since doesn't every author keep notes? I do, and all I write is fanfic and poetry), or they existed and KJA/BH took what they wanted and ignored the rest. The latter is the most likely explanation, and also the most likely explanation for why the notes have never been published.

If you find yourself interested in reading the entire Dune series, than the trilogy is kind of required since it sets up really important backstory for the Hunters of Dune/Sandworms of Dune conclusion novels.

It's a feedback loop. The nuDune crap is completely unnecessary, because the Hunters/Sandworms books are not really sequels to Chapterhouse as much as sequels to KJA/BH's version of Dune.

Marty and Daniel are FACE DANCERS. They are NOT robots, or any kind of "thinking machine". That was perfectly clear in FH's book.

Au contraire: Chapterhouse is the last in the series. It ends seemingly in media res, with the last survivors heading off into the unknown, the universe full of possibilities. A perfect ending, really.

I have to agree with this. A lot of people have lamented the cliff-hanger ending, but such endings can work very well. Margaret Atwood did this in her Handmaid Tale novel (the movie provided a different ending, so the audience wouldn't feel cheated out of some kind of "closure"). Even if Frank Herbert had actually intended Chapterhouse to be the final Dune novel, it would have worked.

The Butlerian Jihad was never a war involving Man against Machine (in the form of robots, androids, meks, etc.). The Butlerian Jihad was Some Men Who Consider Thinking Machines Good vs Other Men Who Consider Thinking Machines Evil.

Wait, so the Dune Universe ended up the way it did because The Butlerian Jihad was basically the war where luddites took over the universe?

I am taking this information from the Dune Encyclopedia, p. 137 in the trade paperback edition that was published in 1984.


The Butlerian Jihad happened because far in the past (in-story), an AI doctor made the decision to abort a healthy fetus. The child's mother was Jehanne Butler. This act was possible because the hospital director that allowed the decision to abort was a self-programming machine. Jehanne was a priestess and also Bene Gesserit, so she knew perfectly well that her daughter was healthy.

The article is several pages long, so suffice to say that the Bene Gesserit and others were not happy that a machine was allowed to program itself to commit such criminal acts. They decided to take it to their rulers, on the planet Richese.

Richese, they discovered, was being run to an appalling extent by thinking machines, originally programmed by humans who wanted to use the machines to control the emotional and intellectual development and behavior of their populace.

Finally a rebellion started. Jehane didn't start it, but her name was leant to it - because it was her baby that was aborted. It was a war of ideologies that took a long time - over a century - and ended with the dictum "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind." That was a profound change in thinking in the Imperium, as profound as the Ten Commandments are to us, even those of us who don't follow that religion or are atheists (ie. the prohibition against killing).

Apologies if this has already been mentioned (haven't read the entire thread), but KJA/BH didn't have the first clue what the Butlerian Jihad was about. A bunch of us "Orthodox Herbertarians" (readers who consider the Frank Herbert novels and the Dune Encyclopedia as authentic Dune - the Encyclopedia because it was sanctioned by Frank Herbert - and the nuDune books as bad fanfic that somehow got professionally published) used to argue this a lot on the old Dunenovels forum.

Except the Dune Encyclopedia has been de-canonised courtesy of a couple of authors who don't their novels contradicted.

Considering that they stole some of their ideas directly from the Encyclopedia, they're trying to have it both ways. The Encyclopedia has long been out of print, and the estate holders are in no hurry to allow it back into print - too many readers would notice. I happen to have a copy of the Encyclopedia - a book that was sanctioned by Frank Herbert - so I don't give a damn what KJA/BH say.

Wasn't the whole bit about Old Earth being glassed to end the war an invention of the prequel novels too? I'm pretty sure there's mention of Old Earth still being a place where humans live in the appendices.

Whichever way you cut it, Brian & Kevin didn't do their homework.

You are correct. If Earth had been glassed as shown in the nuDune books, there wouldn't have been anywhere available to iron out the Orange Catholic Bible. That series of discussions happened in Hawaii (the clues to this location are in Dune, and in the appendices).

A bunch of us "Orthodox Herbertarians" (readers who consider the Frank Herbert novels and the Dune Encyclopedia as authentic Dune - the Encyclopedia because it was sanctioned by Frank Herbert - and the nuDune books as bad fanfic that somehow got professionally published) used to argue this a lot on the old Dunenovels forum.

I just changed my Facebook religious status from Atheist to Orthodox Herbertairan after reading this.

Welcome aboard! You now run the risk of Kevin J. Anderson seeing this and adding you to his list of the people he openly calls "Talifans" - those of us who don't like nuDune and aren't shy about saying so.

Pinkie and the Brian's oeuvre appears to apply Stalinist revisionism to Frank Herbert's intentions but they have access to his notes and we don't so *shrug*. Shallow doesn't cut it -- their stuff has no depth.

You have no idea how far they've gone to discredit the original six novels. They made it clear in Paul of Dune that Dune - FRANK HERBERT'S NOVEL - is nothing more than an in-universe propaganda novel authored by Princess Irulan, on Paul's orders. There's a scene where the Fremen warriors going on jihad are given copies of the book, and they wonder how Irulan was so stupid and "got everything wrong."

This inspired me to make this lol over at I Can Has Cheezburger?:

@Kirkman1987: Those are BEAUTIFUL!!! (and now I am so jealous... )

 

[The Wormhole]

I hate to slip into spoilery territory here because I may still read the trilogy...but really!? A war against machines?

You're right, nowhere in the references to the Butlerian Jihad in Frank's books does it ever sound like it could be a war against machines. Hmm, that is weird.

I thought it was pretty evident that the Butlerian Jihad was man against man, and a matter of conflicting philosophies. A consequence of it was the destruction of thinking machines, but that's no more a war against machines than World War II was a war against buildings.

You'd think Herbert's own son would have understood what his father meant!

Although, doesn't the "Alan Smithee" version of the Lynch movie depict the Jihad as a war against machines? Or at the very least state that the Jihad freed humanity from the oppression of the thinking machines, which kind of implies machines were fought against.

 

[Kirkman1987]

Yes, in the prologue the visuals make that pretty clear. check out roughly the 1-3 minute mark.

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7FcJwg6OkA[/yt]

 

[kirk55555]

I thought it was pretty evident that the Butlerian Jihad was man against man, and a matter of conflicting philosophies. A consequence of it was the destruction of thinking machines, but that's no more a war against machines than World War II was a war against buildings.

You'd think Herbert's own son would have understood what his father meant!

I always thought it was man against machine. Thats the whole point of not making a machine like a man's mind, which is brought up in Frank Herbert's books.

Besides that, Brian herbert did write atleast some of the books based off Frank Herbert's notes that they found after his death, so I'm just going to assume that Frank Herbert meant it to have been a human vs. Machine war. That said, I wouldn't care if they came out tomorrow and said they were lying about having any notes whatsoever. I like so many of the BH/KA books that it just wouldn't be the series I enjoy at this point without them.

 

[Marc]

We reach! Oops, wrong Herbert.

Pinkie and the Brian's oeuvre appears to apply Stalinist revisionism to Frank Herbert's intentions but they have access to his notes and we don't so *shrug*. Shallow doesn't cut it -- their stuff has no depth.

They might claim to have access to his notes but
a) we don't know what's in those notes
b) how comprehensive they are
c) if they are actually following them.

 

[The Wormhole]

I tend to think the whole "based on Frank Herbert's notes" thing is an exaggeration. I don't doubt Frank left behind some notes about Dune's backstory and where he intended to take the series. But I doubt he left enough material to fuel over ten novels. Although, while it certainly wasn't very popular among fans, I am convinced Duncan Idaho's eventual fate in Sandworms of Dune is something Frank Herbert intended to do with the character. I'd say the books are mostly Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson's own writings. It'd say the ratio is something like 98% BH and KJA and 2% derived from something found in FH's notes.

 

[Timewalker]

We reach! Oops, wrong Herbert.

Pinkie and the Brian's oeuvre appears to apply Stalinist revisionism to Frank Herbert's intentions but they have access to his notes and we don't so *shrug*. Shallow doesn't cut it -- their stuff has no depth.

They might claim to have access to his notes but
a) we don't know what's in those notes
b) how comprehensive they are
c) if they are actually following them.

Of course they're not following them. If they were, there wouldn't have been the nonsense of Marty and Daniel really being robots. And the characters on the no-ship wouldn't have been so damn STUPID for two entire books! (would FH have had Duncan stare at a strand of Murbella's hair for an insane number of pages and contemplate having her brought back as a ghola so he could have his lover back - considering that it would have taken over 15 years at least for her to grow to maturity to have sex with him? Duncan was never perfect, but I'm pretty damn sure that he was never a pedophile!)

I tend to think the whole "based on Frank Herbert's notes" thing is an exaggeration. I don't doubt Frank left behind some notes about Dune's backstory and where he intended to take the series. But I doubt he left enough material to fuel over ten novels. Although, while it certainly wasn't very popular among fans, I am convinced Duncan Idaho's eventual fate in Sandworms of Dune is something Frank Herbert intended to do with the character. I'd say the books are mostly Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson's own writings. It'd say the ratio is something like 98% BH and KJA and 2% derived from something found in FH's notes.

Robert Wise did it better at the end of Star Trek: The Motion Picture.

 

[Hound of UIster]

We reach! Oops, wrong Herbert.

Pinkie and the Brian's oeuvre appears to apply Stalinist revisionism to Frank Herbert's intentions but they have access to his notes and we don't so *shrug*. Shallow doesn't cut it -- their stuff has no depth.

They might claim to have access to his notes but
a) we don't know what's in those notes
b) how comprehensive they are
c) if they are actually following them.

Apparently according to his son, he left very little in regards to how Dune 7 was going to end. We know Marty and Daniel being the thinking machines was a complete invention of KJA and BH since Omnius and Erasmus were both original characters of theirs.

I thought it was pretty evident that the Butlerian Jihad was man against man, and a matter of conflicting philosophies. A consequence of it was the destruction of thinking machines, but that's no more a war against machines than World War II was a war against buildings.

I have always thought it was a war against those people who use advanced AI to control others. I think Leto spelled it out in GEoD that it was not just a war against machines, but a war against a mindset that relied on them.

 

[Tom Hendricks]

I'm more of a yellowed paperback kind of guy, but I came across this edition today and my dollars and I soon parted.

Looks like I have the excuse I need to read this again.

Beautiful edition of Dune. I own several different editions of it myself, when ever I see a new version I always buy it.

 

[Set Harth]

I think I lost mine in the great fire of 2000.

Now I want that one.

You now run the risk of Kevin J. Anderson seeing this and adding you to his list of the people he openly calls "Talifans"

By Guldur, that's not even original. That's a favorite phrase of former SW EU author Karen Traviss.

 

[Hound of UIster]

He did this before Traviss actually back when usenet was still a thing.

 

[Kirkman1987]

If anyone does want that edition of Dune it's a recent Barnes and Noble exclusive. It should be in store and is also on the website.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/dune-frank-herbert/1100608835?ean=9781435140745

I started reading shortly after getting home this afternoon. It's a lot easier to read the second time having remembered most of the terminology.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Pinkie and the Brian's oeuvre appears to apply Stalinist revisionism to Frank Herbert's intentions but they have access to his notes and we don't so *shrug*. Shallow doesn't cut it -- their stuff has no depth.

You have no idea how far they've gone to discredit the original six novels. They made it clear in Paul of Dune that Dune - FRANK HERBERT'S NOVEL - is nothing more than an in-universe propaganda novel authored by Princess Irulan, on Paul's orders. There's a scene where the Fremen warriors going on jihad are given copies of the book, and they wonder how Irulan was so stupid and "got everything wrong."

Holy crap! I'm so glad that I gave up after the Legends of Dune trilogy, which was bad enough.