Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

[Robert Comsol]

I'm not taking anything out of context. I was telling you what I remember reading, and I stand by what I wrote. It could have been on Drexfiles, it could have been on Trekmovie, I don't remember. But what I do remember was what Probert stated.

Yes, that's what you wrote after you had posted this...

Probert himself went on record that Sternbach's design is the true Ambassador class.

...which made it sound like an established fact, which it obviously is not, because all you can offer to back your claim up with is your memory.

What we see on the conference lounge's wall is the Enterprise-C as Andrew Probert envisioned it (as a member of the Ambassador Class) and all the work he put into it after all these years, working together with Tobias Richter to give birth to a pefect CGI visualization of his design in 2011, tells me that he has not given up on his vision and most assuredly does not consider his design "untrue".

Why are we talking about the Daedalus anyway? - Why are we talking about the Ambassador anyway?

Regarding the Grissom's possible saucer module landing capability I elaborated on that capability of the Daedalus Class in a pre-TOS context, Dukhat found fault with this insisting the depiction of the Daedalus Class was conjectural. It seemed necessary to to discuss the canon value of desktop models and wall sculptues depicted in the series...oh well, one thing let to another.

But since you brought this up:

• why are we not talking about the windows or portholes of the USS Grissom? You wanted to elaborate on this but just provided a cross section which doesn't tell too us too much about possible deck heights and whether the portholes are overhead, at 6' height or cabin (sitting) level?
• why we are not talking about what other functions (exhaust nozzle?) the tail of the Grissom's engineering pod could be good for?

Bob

 

[Robert Comsol]

Mid-sized Federation Science Vessel. If you really want to pick a nit, it doesn't even call her a Starfleet ship.

The ship was crewed by Starfleet officers, so it makes the Grissom a de facto Starfleet vessel.

I'd say "USS" would identify the vessel as one belonging to Starfleet, not the crew. Genesis had become a delicate matter and I think Starfleet wanted to keep a watchful eye on these enthusiastic scientists, therefore and for this particular mission they assigned Captain Esteban to be in charge of the operation.

Especially since under normal operations I could imagine a commander to be the captain of such a small vessel, but not a veteran Starfleet captain like Esteban.

Bob

 

[Praetor]

Why are we talking about the Daedalus anyway? - Why are we talking about the Ambassador anyway?

Regarding the Grissom's possible saucer module landing capability I elaborated on that capability of the Daedalus Class in a pre-TOS context, Dukhat found fault with this insisting the depiction of the Daedalus Class was conjectural. It seemed necessary to to discuss the canon value of desktop models and wall sculptues depicted in the series...oh well, one thing let to another.

Ah, yes. Derp. I was mostly teasing, no ill-will meant. I honestly had lost track why we were discussing it.

But since you brought this up:

• why are we not talking about the windows or portholes of the USS Grissom? You wanted to elaborate on this but just provided a cross section which doesn't tell too us too much about possible deck heights and whether the portholes are overhead, at 6' height or cabin (sitting) level?
• why we are not talking about what other functions (exhaust nozzle?) the tail of the Grissom's engineering pod could be good for?

Ouch.

Okay okay, I'm slack. I'll see what I can work up this evening regarding the windows. As for the nozzle... erm... auxiliary impulse engine?

Can we all at least agree now that she's a mid-size Federation (Starfleet) science vessel?

 

[Robert Comsol]

As for the nozzle... erm... auxiliary impulse engine?

I don't have a good stern picture at hand, but in comparison wouldn't the tiny impulse "thingy" at the warp sled's stern rather look "auxiliary"?

Can we all at least agree now that she's a mid-size Federation (Starfleet) science vessel?

If a mid-size Federation vessel "could be" a "Scout Class vessel" I probably wouldn't say no. Do we have anything useful on the USS Jenolan (Sydney Class) for comparison?

Bob

 

[Praetor]

Before I proceed, I must tuck tail and correct a horrible omission that I hope can be forgiven. In retelling the tale of the creation of the Oberth schematic for LCARS24, I completely neglecting to mention the the critical input of our own Reverend, whose efforts to create accurate schematics of the Oberth class I considered definitive, and strongly influenced the take on the ship I presented before.

Whatever the Romulan is for "oops," there you have it. I have put in a PM to Reverend in the hopes he drops by.

With that out of the way, with all deliberate slaphazardness, I present this crude deck to window analysis:

It is hampered by the perspective of the image, but basically the windows are more or less too high for each deck as they align to the edges of the hull. And the ones on top of the dome, which can be viewed quite wel in the following image, could be skylights I suppose, but are probably better described as some form of sensors.



Given the nature of my Excelsior thread, though, it might be worthwhile to attempt scaling the ship based on the windows for kicks. However, I think the results would be frustrating at best.

Should we also consider the wrecked Vico while we're at it? We know it to be a separate model, but perhaps there is some merit.

I don't have a good stern picture at hand, but in comparison wouldn't the tiny impulse "thingy" at the warp sled's stern rather look "auxiliary"?

The Fact Files image might suffice:



My issue with making it a primary impulse engine would be that it would seem to not be along the center of mass... but maybe two impulse engines working in tandem would be okay?

If

a mid-size Federation vessel "could be" a "Scout Class vessel" I probably wouldn't say no. Do we have anything useful on the USS Jenolan (Sydney Class) for comparison?

Mm, I'm not sure if the Jenolan helps:


I'd say that bridge module suggests a ship closer to 200 meters, give or take. Plus, she was a transport, so she doesn't necessarily have to be small.

 

[Dukhat]

I'm not taking anything out of context. I was telling you what I remember reading, and I stand by what I wrote. It could have been on Drexfiles, it could have been on Trekmovie, I don't remember. But what I do remember was what Probert stated.

Yes, that's what you wrote after you had posted this...

Probert himself went on record that Sternbach's design is the true Ambassador class.

...which made it sound like an established fact, which it obviously is not, because all you can offer to back your claim up with is your memory.

I'm not trying to belabor this, because it really isn't all that important, but it seems that you simply can't get it through your head that Sternbach's design is the official Ambassador class because it was seen on screen and Probert's wasn't, no matter what you think that Probert thinks. You seem to be speaking for Mr. Probert, which is quite a disservice to him, IMHO. As I said before, I could back my claim up if I had access to his quote, but I don't. Which is why I don't particularly care if you believe me or not, because I know what I read, which was that Mr. Probert stated that Rick's design is the true Ambassador class. And he's correct.

What we see on the conference lounge's wall is the Enterprise-C as Andrew Probert envisioned it (as a member of the Ambassador Class) and all the work he put into it after all these years, working together with Tobias Richter to give birth to a pefect CGI visualization of his design in 2011, tells me that he has not given up on his vision and most assuredly does not consider his design "untrue".

And yet the design as such only exists in true canon as an ill-formed side-view wall hanging, right alongside an ill-formed wall hanging of the Enterprise-B, which looks different than the actual Enterprise-B vessel. Actually all of those wall hanging sculptures are dubious at best in showing the true vessels they represent. You can think the design is "true" all you want, but unless that ship that Probert painted and Tobias Richter meshed was actually seen in the show, it has no canon standing and is really no different than a fan-made design. And I'd bet that Mr. Probert knows this as well.

Now with that said, I will repeat that I really do like Probert's original Ambassador design. As a matter of fact, I like all of Probert's work in regards to Star Trek. Two of my favorite Trek ships of all time, the TMP Enterprise and the Enterprise-D, were designed by him. I can totally see his love and dedication to his work in every sketch he drew.

 

[yenny]

As for the nozzle... erm... auxiliary impulse engine?

I don't have a good stern picture at hand, but in comparison wouldn't the tiny impulse "thingy" at the warp sled's stern rather look "auxiliary"?

Can we all at least agree now that she's a mid-size Federation (Starfleet) science vessel?

If a mid-size Federation vessel "could be" a "Scout Class vessel" I probably wouldn't say no. Do we have anything useful on the USS Jenolan (Sydney Class) for comparison?

Bob

There is the USS. Antares NCC-501. It is a science vessel and it's smaller then a Oberth class is.

 

[Reverend]

Before I proceed, I must tuck tail and correct a horrible omission that I hope can be forgiven. In retelling the tale of the creation of the Oberth schematic for LCARS24, I completely neglecting to mention the the critical input of our own Reverend, whose efforts to create accurate schematics of the Oberth class I considered definitive, and strongly influenced the take on the ship I presented before.

Whatever the Romulan is for "oops," there you have it. I have put in a PM to Reverend in the hopes he drops by.

Not sure what else I can add to the discussion beyond posting a link to the old schematic thread. Suffice to say I've always worked from the presumption that the Oberth was a late 22nd century design (hence the log reg) and was heavily influenced by Vulcan design aesthetics (hence the unique look.) I don't tink I ever totally settled on a size for the thing, but I'm pretty sure it was in the 180/200m ballpark. IIRC I came the the opinion that the model makers intended it to be a lot bigger (by a factor of at least 2) than what the official length ended up being.

As for the schematics themselves, a quick rummage through my photobucket account yields these, which are about as far as I got before something shinny distracted me.



And just for fun!

 

[Timo]

My issue with making it a primary impulse engine would be that it would seem to not be along the center of mass...

Well, impulse engines never are. Unless one fine-tunes the mass of the nacelles, the one element that can be assumed to noticeably differ in density from the rest of the ship. But even that only saves one ship class at a time; what works for the Constitution refit won't work for the Miranda.

So far, we've seen that the glowing bits of impulse engines can be of any size, point in any direction, or even be completely absent (TOS!), so we can probably dismiss their role as a rocket engine of some conventional sort. Perhaps their glow is harnessed for boosting propulsion by 0.7% in some designs, while in others the as such meaningless boost is not incorporated (the way some aircraft piston engines derive extra boost from venting their exhausts while most don't).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Reverend]

^IIRC Sternbach always said that the red glowey bit isn't a reaction thruster like a rocket so much as an engine/reactor exhaust vent like the one on your car. As such it's placement has very little to do with centers of mass or thrust and more to do with convenient disposal of ionized gas.

The idea that impulse engines used reaction thrust never made much sense to me anyway. I mean I'm no rocket scientist, but I imagine the sheer mass required to accelerate a ship up to .5C in anything less than a few months would be ridiculously impractical. It make much more sense (if one can apply sense to fictional laws of physics!) for them to operate like low powered warp engines. Compressing and expanded space while working with the IDF to create a sort of caterpillar effect.

 

[Robert Comsol]

^IIRC Sternbach always said that the red glowey bit isn't a reaction thruster like a rocket so much as an engine/reactor exhaust vent like the one on your car.

Fascinating suggestion! But after Praetor posted this script excerpt - "A mid-sized Federation Science Vessel approaching at impulse power." - it seems to suggest somewhat that what we saw was the "impulse power". (Well, should the "mid-size" remark require a salt shaker, this might also apply to the rest of this line. )

The idea that impulse engines used reaction thrust never made much sense to me anyway. I mean I'm no rocket scientist, but I imagine the sheer mass required to accelerate a ship up to .5C in anything less than a few months would be ridiculously impractical.

Quite a can of worms, but we probably have to deal with it, regardless whether we like it or not (BTW, encouraging that I'm apparently not the only one who suspects this could be a pre-TOS ship, thanks for mentioning it).

@ Praetor

I see you have superimposed some lines on the VFX shot to suggest conjectural deck levels.

How tall do you estimate each deck and what were to happen if you allocated some more space at the bottom for antigrav and other components necessary for atmospheric flight and touchdown while still maintaining an equal height deck level for the remaining interior space?

@ Dukhat

I'm not speaking for Mr. Probert as he is most assuredly and very able to do that for himself, should he feel this to be necessary.

I was stating truthfully what he had tried to accomplish over the years (to dissociate himself from the altered design), mentioned two reasons why this had obviously become necessary, and expressed my personal doubt that he supposedly considered the design (he tried to disscociate himself from) "true".

I consider the background models including the wall sculpture to be canon (they were onscreen), you don't, so we agree to disagree. However, noticing your obvious interest and the time and energy you seem to invest hunting down hard-to-see background models, I can't help but wonder whether you consider these to be canon or only those you personally like?

Bob

 

[Praetor]

Reverend, my good cleric, thanks for dropping by! Indeed your works have stood the test of time. Thanks for sharing that dedication plaque too. Mayweather, eh?

Not sure what else I can add to the discussion beyond posting a link to the old schematic thread. Suffice to say I've always worked from the presumption that the Oberth was a late 22nd century design (hence the log reg) and was heavily influenced by Vulcan design aesthetics (hence the unique look.)

I think Vulcan involvement makes all kinds of sense considering it is a science ship. What do others think about this, and the 22nd century notion?

I don't think I ever totally settled on a size for the thing, but I'm pretty sure it was in the 180/200m ballpark.

I didn't remember she ended up so big... that certainly ends up in the "mid-size" range to me.

IIRC I came the the opinion that the model makers intended it to be a lot bigger (by a factor of at least 2) than what the official length ended up being.

I'd agree with you on that too, again going back to the windows particularly on the bridge dome.

My issue with making it a primary impulse engine would be that it would seem to not be along the center of mass...

Well, impulse engines never are. Unless one fine-tunes the mass of the nacelles, the one element that can be assumed to noticeably differ in density from the rest of the ship.

Fair enough.

Fascinating suggestion! But after Praetor posted this script excerpt - "A mid-sized Federation Science Vessel approaching at impulse power." - it seems to suggest somewhat that what we saw was the "impulse power". (Well, should the "mid-size" remark require a salt shaker, this might also apply to the rest of this line. )

At least that it was at impulse power, and therefore her tailpipe was working.

I see you have superimposed some lines on the VFX shot to suggest conjectural deck levels.

How tall do you estimate each deck and what were to happen if you allocated some more space at the bottom for antigrav and other components necessary for atmospheric flight and touchdown while still maintaining an equal height deck level for the remaining interior space?

Well, if we wanted to we could take an approach similar to Excelsior and try to visually scale it based on what we know of its size relative to other vessels, and go from there. For the image above, I basically just placed the decks were they were before. Reverend might elaborate on how he arrived at the deck placements he used - I think I pretty much based mine on his. I say I think because it's been a while.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Should we also consider the wrecked Vico while we're at it? We know it to be a separate model, but perhaps there is some merit.

We definitely should, since that appears to show a four-deck saucer section that would, in more ways than one, be ALOT more consistent with both the window placement and the act that those shuttle bay doors have to be large enough to accommodate actual shuttlecraft (which are somewhat taller than a full deck anyway) and still leave some clearance to fly in and out.

So a four-deck saucer, two-deck dome, just going by the damage cutaway.

 

[Timo]

What do others think about this, and the 22nd century notion?

Well, the curved pylons make a new sort of sense from the ENT viewpoint, being half a warp ring - Earth-style nacelles apparently make up for the other half.

But surely there should be "Vulcan influence" in basically all starship designs anyway?

As for that "four-decker" wreck, I don't quite see the merit of assuming that those fancy openings in the saucer are supposed to accommodate shuttlecraft. They don't look a bit like the Enterprise shuttlebay, and there's no indication the Grissom had shuttles let alone ones operating from those holes.

And the central dome doesn't become a convincing bridge until one scales up the ship to at least four times the "two-decker", 120m size. It's wasted effort IMHO when we could just as well assume the bridge is sunken deep inside the saucer.

Actually, FWIW, "Hero Worship" and "The Naked Now" both suggest the bridge is actually at the forward edge of the saucer, with one vertical wall bordering on empty space. Perhaps the bow opening is actually the bridge windshield? (A typical late 22nd/early 23rd century feature, that .)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Praetor]

Should we also consider the wrecked Vico while we're at it? We know it to be a separate model, but perhaps there is some merit.

We definitely should, since that appears to show a four-deck saucer section that would, in more ways than one, be ALOT more consistent with both the window placement and the act that those shuttle bay doors have to be large enough to accommodate actual shuttlecraft (which are somewhat taller than a full deck anyway) and still leave some clearance to fly in and out.

So a four-deck saucer, two-deck dome, just going by the damage cutaway.

What's amusing to me is that the cutaway diagram from the same episode directly contradicts the model. See here. Two decks in the saucer.

I do think scaling along these lines and seeing what length it yields is a worthwhile effort, and may take it up this evening.

But surely there should be "Vulcan influence" in basically all starship designs anyway?

True.

As for that "four-decker" wreck, I don't quite see the merit of assuming that those fancy openings in the saucer are supposed to accommodate shuttlecraft. They don't look a bit like the Enterprise shuttlebay, and there's no indication the Grissom had shuttles let alone ones operating from those holes.

And as Robert Comsol pointed out, the side notches don't make much sense for shuttlebays, either. Hard to navigate into, those would be.

And the central dome doesn't become a convincing bridge until one scales up the ship to at least four times the "two-decker", 120m size. It's wasted effort IMHO when we could just as well assume the bridge is sunken deep inside the saucer.

Also true.

Actually, FWIW, "Hero Worship" and "The Naked Now" both suggest the bridge is actually at the forward edge of the saucer, with one vertical wall bordering on empty space.

I think Reverend was trying to mitigate that by having there be a second brdige at the forward end of the pod.

 

[yenny]

Look like the Vico has 15 decks. Which mean 40meters/131.233ft divided by 2.5 meters/8.2ft = 15.97 decks.

The shuttle bay looks like 2 decks 5 meters/16.4ft.

Those measurements are from floor to floor, not floor to ceiling. Floor to ceiling is likely 8ft. And floor to ceiling in the shuttlebay is 16ft.

 

[Robert Comsol]

Not sure what else I can add to the discussion beyond posting a link to the old schematic thread. Suffice to say I've always worked from the presumption that the Oberth was a late 22nd century design (hence the log reg) and was heavily influenced by Vulcan design aesthetics (hence the unique look.)

I think Vulcan involvement makes all kinds of sense considering it is a science ship. What do others think about this, and the 22nd century notion?

I'd be happy and content with an early 23rd Century notion. I agree that "science" in Star Trek has a certain Vulcan connotation - and last but not least we had the "Vulcan long-range shuttle" in TMP where the passenger "module" equally detached from the warp-drive sled in a fashion not too dissimilar of what I expect the Oberth Class to be capable of.

The debatable thing here is "Vulcan" long-range shuttle, "Spock's long-range shuttle" may have been more appropriate. The Official TMP blueprints do not suggest this to be an exclusive Vulcan design, but they say "Class: Vulcan" (Vulcan Class - what's up with that ? )

How tall do you estimate each deck and what were to happen if you allocated some more space at the bottom for antigrav and other components necessary for atmospheric flight and touchdown while still maintaining an equal height deck level for the remaining interior space?

Well, if we wanted to we could take an approach similar to Excelsior and try to visually scale it based on what we know of its size relative to other vessels, and go from there.

I don't know. As you just demonstrated yourself with the SS Vico and the contrast between monitor display and model, the departments couldn't even make up their mind what size the ship should have, mind put it at a reliable scale with other ships to draw useful conclusions from.

The starting point would be Star Trek III and the suggested overall length of 120 meters, IMHO. Based on that what would be the deck height in your VFX composite?

Bob

 

[Reverend]

What do others think about this, and the 22nd century notion?

Well, the curved pylons make a new sort of sense from the ENT viewpoint, being half a warp ring - Earth-style nacelles apparently make up for the other half.

But surely there should be "Vulcan influence" in basically all starship designs anyway?

Influence sure, but the way I choose to interpret it, this is from the Federation's second generation of starship design. While most of the early Fed & SF ships would still be mostly designed built by the individual member worlds just to keep up the numbers, the second wave stuff would have started to show increased hybridization both in terms of technology and aesthetics. Later designs would be increasingly homogenized, but in this transitional phase you could still see strong a cultural
aesthetic at play.

 

[Praetor]

The debatable thing here is "Vulcan" long-range shuttle, "Spock's long-range shuttle" may have been more appropriate. The Official TMP blueprints do not suggest this to be an exclusive Vulcan design, but they say "Class: Vulcan" (Vulcan Class - what's up with that ? )

I've always thought that the shuttle was of Vulcan registry - but there's nothing precluding that it was designed by a Vulcan firm. I believe Jackill chose to interpret it this way. It's worth consideration that it was an idea of Mr. Probert that the refit Enterprise might carry similarly designed shuttlecrafts.

I don't know. As you just demonstrated yourself with the SS Vico and the contrast between monitor display and model, the departments couldn't even make up their mind what size the ship should have, mind put it at a reliable scale with other ships to draw useful conclusions from.

The starting point would be Star Trek III and the suggested overall length of 120 meters, IMHO. Based on that what would be the deck height in your VFX composite?

The height I used there was based on the prior cross section's height workout, and I think there it was based on 12 foot decks. (FWIW, at a length of 120 meters I believe the height works out to around 25 meters.)

This also bears viewing, it appears to be attributed to Mr. Probert.



I believe this was prepared at the start of TNG to orient everyone on the size of established (or in the C's case, planned) starships.

Influence sure, but the way I choose to interpret it, this is from the Federation's second generation of starship design. While most of the early Fed & SF ships would still be mostly designed built by the individual member worlds just to keep up the numbers, the second wave stuff would have started to show increased hybridization both in terms of technology and aesthetics. Later designs would be increasingly homogenized, but in this transitional phase you could still see strong a cultural aesthetic at play.

I dig it. So by movie or 24th century era, you see truly homogenous designs, or sooner?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I dig it. So by movie or 24th century era, you see truly homogenous designs, or sooner?

FWIW, the leading Vulcan starships of the 22nd century were in the neighborhood of 600 meters long.