22nd century star clipper...
- Thread starter Warped9
- Start date
While continuing to work on this design today I've also begun sketching out another concept.
I've never really liked the Daedalus-class design primarily because it looks like they basically took MJ's sketch and followed it religiously. As is it looks horribly awkward and ungainly---there's no grace to it whatsoever. Hell, even MJ's basic concept for what eventually became the Enterprise wasn't nailed down from the beginning.
There's a reason MJ rejected the spherical main hull: he didn't like it. Be that as it may I'm sketching out ideas for something along the concept MJ seemed to be going for without following his sketch to the letter. It's not enough to make a pre TOS ship look devolved and somewhat more rudimentary, but also to make it look decent in its own right---it has to have some coolness factor, some measure of the heroic to it.
My thinking is that my design would coexist with my clipper design around the same era. And from both you can see ideas that could eventually cross pollinate to become the more familiar designs of the TOS and TMP eras. My overall idea is to crank out a few somewhat key designs to indicate a kind of general evolution from the early S.S. Valiant era (I'm going to revisit that one) through to the TOS era.
- U.E.S.S. Valiant (to be revisited because it should look more rudimentary than the ringship Enterprise)
- U.E.S.S. Bonaventure (the TAS version doesn't work for, not for the era it's supposed to be, so I have another idea)
- Hercules-class star clipper (WIP)
- Independence-class (my take on MJ's sketch that became the Daedalus)
- Nova-class (my pre TOS Cruiser also based on an MJ sketch that seemed to be the beginning of his arrival at his final design for the TOS Enterprise)
Another design concept occurs to me. In "Balance Of Terror" they make a point of questioning whether Romulan spies could be operating within the Federation because of the perceived semblance of the BoP's design to that of Earth ships. I'm assuming the similarity is to Earth ships of the past rather than current designs (or at least that's what I get out of the reference). Granted the Romulans likely wouldn't copy an alien design in whole, but they might have be influenced with Earth design in principle---"These guys beat us with those ships so maybe it's a superior configuration we should emulate."
At any rate it strikes me that there could be at least one Earth ship design that could bear at least a passing resemblance to the Romulan BoP seen in "balance Of Terror," something that gave the Romulans the idea to copy the general concept.
I've never really liked the Daedalus-class design primarily because it looks like they basically took MJ's sketch and followed it religiously. As is it looks horribly awkward and ungainly---there's no grace to it whatsoever. Hell, even MJ's basic concept for what eventually became the Enterprise wasn't nailed down from the beginning.
There's a reason MJ rejected the spherical main hull: he didn't like it. Be that as it may I'm sketching out ideas for something along the concept MJ seemed to be going for without following his sketch to the letter. It's not enough to make a pre TOS ship look devolved and somewhat more rudimentary, but also to make it look decent in its own right---it has to have some coolness factor, some measure of the heroic to it.
My thinking is that my design would coexist with my clipper design around the same era. And from both you can see ideas that could eventually cross pollinate to become the more familiar designs of the TOS and TMP eras. My overall idea is to crank out a few somewhat key designs to indicate a kind of general evolution from the early S.S. Valiant era (I'm going to revisit that one) through to the TOS era.
- U.E.S.S. Valiant (to be revisited because it should look more rudimentary than the ringship Enterprise)
- U.E.S.S. Bonaventure (the TAS version doesn't work for, not for the era it's supposed to be, so I have another idea)
- Hercules-class star clipper (WIP)
- Independence-class (my take on MJ's sketch that became the Daedalus)
- Nova-class (my pre TOS Cruiser also based on an MJ sketch that seemed to be the beginning of his arrival at his final design for the TOS Enterprise)
Another design concept occurs to me. In "Balance Of Terror" they make a point of questioning whether Romulan spies could be operating within the Federation because of the perceived semblance of the BoP's design to that of Earth ships. I'm assuming the similarity is to Earth ships of the past rather than current designs (or at least that's what I get out of the reference). Granted the Romulans likely wouldn't copy an alien design in whole, but they might have be influenced with Earth design in principle---"These guys beat us with those ships so maybe it's a superior configuration we should emulate."
At any rate it strikes me that there could be at least one Earth ship design that could bear at least a passing resemblance to the Romulan BoP seen in "balance Of Terror," something that gave the Romulans the idea to copy the general concept.
I'm right there with you on that one. I look forward to your interpretation!
As much as Enterprise is not being used here, even in the novels for that series, the Daedalus was reduced to a technological test bed that was never meant to see full production.
TNG's only reference to the class is when the Federation finally managed to retire it in favour of better ships classes.
So to be blunt, the Daedalus was kicked around verbally everytime it was even mentioned. I think that really says all there needs to be said about the class.
I've always enjoyed the fandoms interpretations of the class and variations on it far more.
And as for the size comparison above, the Hercules is a little larger than I had thought at first, but considering how much thinner she is and the length of the mechanical drive sections, it makes more sense.
TNG's only reference to the class is when the Federation finally managed to retire it in favour of better ships classes.
So to be blunt, the Daedalus was kicked around verbally everytime it was even mentioned. I think that really says all there needs to be said about the class.
I've always enjoyed the fandoms interpretations of the class and variations on it far more.
And as for the size comparison above, the Hercules is a little larger than I had thought at first, but considering how much thinner she is and the length of the mechanical drive sections, it makes more sense.
^^ The mechanicals and systems of the era are also meant to be bulkier so the ship wouldn't be as spacious in accommodations as TOS era ships. And note my little posted image says "approximate size comparison." The ship could still end up being a bit smaller, but probably not by much.
One of MJ's sketches for the Daedalus type design had the name Independence on the front, so I've decided to call my version the Independence-class even though I'm deviating from his sketches.
One of MJ's sketches for the Daedalus type design had the name Independence on the front, so I've decided to call my version the Independence-class even though I'm deviating from his sketches.
The aft half of the ship convays it nicely, I assume the interior spaces of the saucer would be much more crampt and less spacious compared to the common corridor configuration of the Enterprise as well.
Actually the Independence sets up the Constitution nicely name wise, a more refined and recognisable 22nd century TOS style design would make a smoother transition to the aesthetic of the era too.
Actually the Independence sets up the Constitution nicely name wise, a more refined and recognisable 22nd century TOS style design would make a smoother transition to the aesthetic of the era too.
Another consideration: the TOS era shuttlecraft---at least those types carried aboard starships---are advanced and compact affairs compared to what would likely be available decades to a century or more before. With that in mind the hangar facility for a bulkier auxiliary craft would likely be larger. So when I was eye-balling the size issue I was trying to keep the hangar area roughly the same as that of the TOS Enterprise. Yet while the Enterprise carries for Class F shuttlecraft the Hercules-class carries one auxiliary craft.
Small note: I won't be calling my model by its class name. I've chosen the name U.E.S.S. Swiftsure.
Small note: I won't be calling my model by its class name. I've chosen the name U.E.S.S. Swiftsure.
Rotate a pair of those nacelles up into the traditional locations (instead of the one) and add a quasi-dome superstructure to the bottom of the PH and this clipper would make a fair Daedalus substitute.
Nice expression of a classic design, BTW. Looks older without looking uglier, which is too often the case.
Nice expression of a classic design, BTW. Looks older without looking uglier, which is too often the case.
Thanks. That's what I was going for. I was reminded of this about a month or so ago when the Great Lakes Tall Ships Tour stopped in for the weekend at my hometown of Brockville. There was one ship in particular, a privateer called The Pride Of Baltimore II, that I thought was gorgeous even though it was easily something like 150 years or so old. Something older can still have a measure of grace and sense of the heroic to it even if time is past. How many old cars and planes can still look cool even if they have long been outclassed technologically and performance wise?Looks older without looking uglier, which is too often the case.
There are indeed some asymmetrical details on the ship although they're more subtle than what I had drawn so many years ago. And I have modified the design some from the initial drawing.
The next step is all the detailing that goes into that upside down trench running from under the saucer and all the way aft and there is supposed to be more asymmetrical detail in there.
The next step is all the detailing that goes into that upside down trench running from under the saucer and all the way aft and there is supposed to be more asymmetrical detail in there.
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I like it (especially the asymmetrical details)!
What you see here is the beginnings of an idea for my Independence-class. I've basically taken the spherical forward hull and massaged it into a slightly different shape to make it more visually interesting. I've also thickened the neck or centre dorsal between the forward and aft sections. I've maintained the idea of a suspended sensor pod. And finally I';m looking at nacelles that aren't very simple cylinders.
That looks a lot more stable and refined than the Daedalus already.
The ventral sensor pod is an interesting idea, will it be a manned compartment similar to the later 1701 ion pods?
I love the new sketches, I see what you meant about the amount of detail that's built up already.
The ventral sensor pod is an interesting idea, will it be a manned compartment similar to the later 1701 ion pods?
I love the new sketches, I see what you meant about the amount of detail that's built up already.
Very nice work on everything.
Well, as I said this is the beginning of an idea. Generally I'm not crazy about this coverall concept as it strikes me as rather...uh, phallic in a way---a cylindrical hull with a bulbous fore section. Uh, yeah.
So I'm still playing around with different shapes. It would be easy if I just ditched the (somewhat) spherical forward hull, but then it might not be as visually engaging.
Part of the problem is getting hung up on an idea. Many folks have speculated about pre TOS designs and tried to use some of MJ's early sketches for inspiration---I've done it myself---but we also have to remember that ultimately MJ rejected certain ideas as he worked toward something that worked for him.
My star clipper is an example of seeing a few other ideas elsewhere outside of MJ's sketches and they gave me a direction in devolving from ships of the TOS era, namely the Enterprise design. My idea for a pre TOS cruiser (which I'll model later) is spurred by one of MJ's sketches, but only in basic concept as I fleshed it out in more detail with the idea of "what if MJ had gone that route?"
One thing I definitely try to avoid is cut-and-paste designing. I can see a Gemini/Surya and FJ type Masao destroyer/scout with similar elements of the TOS Enterprise, but beyond that It strikes me as too simplistic and not credible. Yeah, FJ started the trend, but I've never been fond of the transport/tug (although it does lay conceptual groundwork for a frigate design) or the dreadnaught. For a transport/tug I saw something in a Jackill book that worked much better: a Grissom like main hull that attached to transport containers rather than a suspended sensor pod (or whatever it is).
I think some of the best designs fans have done is by achieving a TOS or TMP era look while bringing something fresh to the effort. And not all ideas translate. It's understandable to assume that the Reliant type frigate from TWOK probably had a TOS era predecessor, but not until BolianAdmiral's Gemini did I see one that looked pretty much exactly right. I loved the way Masao took the FJ destroyer/scout concept and worked it with something completely fresh to form his Predator-class destroyer.
Of course, I'm not on a deadline with this. I might never come up with an Independence design I really like, but I'll keep doodling on the chance something emerges on the page or I see something somewhere that finally gives me an elusive clue.
So I'm still playing around with different shapes. It would be easy if I just ditched the (somewhat) spherical forward hull, but then it might not be as visually engaging.
Part of the problem is getting hung up on an idea. Many folks have speculated about pre TOS designs and tried to use some of MJ's early sketches for inspiration---I've done it myself---but we also have to remember that ultimately MJ rejected certain ideas as he worked toward something that worked for him.
My star clipper is an example of seeing a few other ideas elsewhere outside of MJ's sketches and they gave me a direction in devolving from ships of the TOS era, namely the Enterprise design. My idea for a pre TOS cruiser (which I'll model later) is spurred by one of MJ's sketches, but only in basic concept as I fleshed it out in more detail with the idea of "what if MJ had gone that route?"
One thing I definitely try to avoid is cut-and-paste designing. I can see a Gemini/Surya and FJ type Masao destroyer/scout with similar elements of the TOS Enterprise, but beyond that It strikes me as too simplistic and not credible. Yeah, FJ started the trend, but I've never been fond of the transport/tug (although it does lay conceptual groundwork for a frigate design) or the dreadnaught. For a transport/tug I saw something in a Jackill book that worked much better: a Grissom like main hull that attached to transport containers rather than a suspended sensor pod (or whatever it is).
I think some of the best designs fans have done is by achieving a TOS or TMP era look while bringing something fresh to the effort. And not all ideas translate. It's understandable to assume that the Reliant type frigate from TWOK probably had a TOS era predecessor, but not until BolianAdmiral's Gemini did I see one that looked pretty much exactly right. I loved the way Masao took the FJ destroyer/scout concept and worked it with something completely fresh to form his Predator-class destroyer.
Of course, I'm not on a deadline with this. I might never come up with an Independence design I really like, but I'll keep doodling on the chance something emerges on the page or I see something somewhere that finally gives me an elusive clue.
I've been playing around more with my idea for an Independence-class...and I just might be on to something.
The basic concept is still essentially the same, but it's a matter of playing with the proportions. I'll post something tomorrow, but for now try to imagine this:
Instead of a simple spherical forward hull imagine a short cylinder with a half spherical front end. The backside of the cylinder tapers at about 30-40 degrees to a proportionately thick dorsal neck no less than half the diameter of the forward hull. The dorsal is a moderately short cylinder before angling outward at about 30-40 degrees to a cylindrical rear hull that's a bit larger in diameter than the forward hull section. The aft hull ends by tapering down again to end at the impulse engines.
Now in my sketches I've been thinking about a number of variations:
- proportionately enlarge the forward hull to be a bit greater in diameter than the aft hull. This variant gives you a shape conceptually closest to the MJ basic concept sketch.
- With either the small or larger forward hull there could be three different nacelle configurations: the traditional two nacelles angled upward from the secondary hull, two nacelles with one above and below the secondary hull the TNG Stargazer idea), and finally a single nacelle suspended under the secondary hull in similar fashion as my Hercules-class star clipper.
Something to think about.
The basic concept is still essentially the same, but it's a matter of playing with the proportions. I'll post something tomorrow, but for now try to imagine this:
Instead of a simple spherical forward hull imagine a short cylinder with a half spherical front end. The backside of the cylinder tapers at about 30-40 degrees to a proportionately thick dorsal neck no less than half the diameter of the forward hull. The dorsal is a moderately short cylinder before angling outward at about 30-40 degrees to a cylindrical rear hull that's a bit larger in diameter than the forward hull section. The aft hull ends by tapering down again to end at the impulse engines.
Now in my sketches I've been thinking about a number of variations:
- proportionately enlarge the forward hull to be a bit greater in diameter than the aft hull. This variant gives you a shape conceptually closest to the MJ basic concept sketch.
- With either the small or larger forward hull there could be three different nacelle configurations: the traditional two nacelles angled upward from the secondary hull, two nacelles with one above and below the secondary hull the TNG Stargazer idea), and finally a single nacelle suspended under the secondary hull in similar fashion as my Hercules-class star clipper.
Something to think about.
