When did the perception of Insurrection change?

[JarodRussell]

Maybe INS failed by not being graphic and extreme.

If it were graphic and extreme, it wouldn't polarize, and hence wouldn't be as good. I like that about Insurrection. The very question "Are 600 people enough for it to be wrong" is an extremely good one.

Taking a clear position with extreme examples, that's easy.

 

[Mage]

Maybe INS failed by not being graphic and extreme.

If it were graphic and extreme, it wouldn't polarize, and hence wouldn't be as good. I like that about Insurrection. The very question "Are 600 people enough for it to be wrong" is an extremely good one.

Taking a clear position with extreme examples, that's easy.

Exactly. It's so easy to get a point across by being extreme. Subtlety requires more. And let's face it, this question asked in INS has been one going around the forums since the movie was released all those years ago, and it's still being debated. I'd say that's only a good thing.

 

[sonak]

If six hundred Americans were sitting on a cure for cancer and the only way to get at it was to move them, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I don't care how much they cried "FREEDOM111!1"

Would you also kill them if they resisted? When would you stop and give up?

Pretty much a given. People enjoy different things and look for different things in entertainment and shouldn't have to tag every post with "in my opinion".

Sorry. One, it is an apples and oranges comparison as there are currently 360 million Americans. So it wouldn't be practical to move that many people. Two, if six hundred Americans were sitting on a cure for cancer and the only way to get at it was to move them, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I don't care how much they cried "FREEDOM111!1"

Point of view then I suppose. I personally can not believe it's just to remove people by force to serve others. To much 'good' has been accomplished in the world by making others suffer. In all honousty, I can't help but wonder of the people of the Federation would even want a cure for all diseases, if they knew how 600 people were treated in order to get that cure. Assuming that the UFP is indeed such an enlightened society, you'd figure they'd be opposed.

Heck, the whole of the United States has been built on the blood of the native inhabitants of North America. It was wrong, it would still be wrong, and it will always be wrong.

If we were witnessing such a thing today, colonization, forced relocation and mass slaughter, we'd at least condemn it. Perhaps even act against it.

I think it's a sign of a weak argument when you have to resort to inaccurate hyperbole. "mass slaughter?" There was none, only beaming inhabitants away.

"colonization?" There was no intention of colonizing the planet, the process was going to make it uninhabitable for a long period. And again, the process was going to benefit billions.

 

[SeerSGB]

- Why not build a medical colony on the far side of the planet. Put jammers around the Baku's section of the planet, make it hands off and no need to strip the rings of the planet.

- How do they even know they can port the rings magical healing properties elsewhere? They make a big deal about the radiation, but they seem damn certain that the healing affect will work outside the native environment.

- It seems that the rings affect people inside starships. Just build a station in orbit and let people heal soak up the radiation without stepping on the planet.

- The cat's out of the bag now, what's to keep someone (Ferengi, Romulans, Dominion, Klingons) for rolling up and say "fuck you" to the Baku. Federation space or not, if I heard my enemy had a magical healing world and I couldn't conquer it, I'd send in a warship to scorch the planet.

 

[BillJ]

- The cat's out of the bag now, what's to keep someone (Ferengi, Romulans, Dominion, Klingons) for rolling up and say "fuck you" to the Baku. Federation space or not, if I heard my enemy had a magical healing world and I couldn't conquer it, I'd send in a warship to scorch the planet.

This has always been my biggest point for moving the Ba'ku. I don't want them getting slaughtered when another power inevitably hears about the fountain of youth. And I don't want to waste resources and potentially the lives of Starfleet personnel defending six-hundred people.

 

[SeerSGB]

- The cat's out of the bag now, what's to keep someone (Ferengi, Romulans, Dominion, Klingons) for rolling up and say "fuck you" to the Baku. Federation space or not, if I heard my enemy had a magical healing world and I couldn't conquer it, I'd send in a warship to scorch the planet.

This has always been my biggest point for moving the Ba'ku. I don't want them getting slaughtered when another power inevitably hears about the fountain of youth. And I don't want to waste resources and potentially the lives of Starfleet personnel defending six-hundred people.

Yeppers. The Romulans or the Dominion aren't going to give a shit about 600 people. For that matter, the S'ona make white which brings up 2 things:

1) Why the fuck is the Federation dealing with a race that creates a key military asset for the enemy.

2) Why didn't the S'ona go to the Dominion and offer them this deal;

3) Why did the Dominion even put up with this arrangement? We should have seen a Dominion dreadnought warp in and beat the snot out of every one and claim the planet.

Okay 3 things.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

In YOUR opinion.

Pretty much a given. People enjoy different things and look for different things in entertainment and shouldn't have to tag every post with "in my opinion".

But ultimatly, they are now as native to that planet as US citizens are to the US. And forcing them to leave because the UFP thinks they need some form of radiation....

Sorry. One, it is an apples and oranges comparison as there are currently 360 million Americans. So it wouldn't be practical to move that many people. Two, if six hundred Americans were sitting on a cure for cancer and the only way to get at it was to move them, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I don't care how much they cried "FREEDOM111!1"

Point of view then I suppose. I personally can not believe it's just to remove people by force to serve others. To much 'good' has been accomplished in the world by making others suffer. In all honousty, I can't help but wonder of the people of the Federation would even want a cure for all diseases, if they knew how 600 people were treated in order to get that cure. Assuming that the UFP is indeed such an enlightened society, you'd figure they'd be opposed.

Actually according to Mirror Mirror the Federation was kind of opposed to this sort of thing as the point Kirk was making before the transporter accident that sent him and the others to the Mirror Universe was that while the federation had the military might to simply take Halkan's dilithium crystals for themselves by force they weren't going to do that because they were a benevolent good guy organization that doesn't do that. Hell that was kind of the major point of the whole episode

- The cat's out of the bag now, what's to keep someone (Ferengi, Romulans, Dominion, Klingons) for rolling up and say "fuck you" to the Baku. Federation space or not, if I heard my enemy had a magical healing world and I couldn't conquer it, I'd send in a warship to scorch the planet.

This has always been my biggest point for moving the Ba'ku. I don't want them getting slaughtered when another power inevitably hears about the fountain of youth. And I don't want to waste resources and potentially the lives of Starfleet personnel defending six-hundred people.

1) This assumes that anyone other than humans gives two shits about a fountain of youth.

2) Considering Dougherty already implied that other than the Son'a the federation wasn't sharing the stuff, so a war to take it would be inevitable anyway assuming again anyone but them actually cared.

 

[Hober Mallow]

I liked the stuff with crazy Data at the beginning of the movie. Then it was all downhill from there.

Ultimately, the movie just didn't grip me at all. I didn't care about any of the characters, neither the Baku nor the Son'a nor even the Enterprise crew. The crew had no personal stake in the story at all until near the end. They could have warped away at any time. All through the film, as I sat in theater, I kept thinking, "when am I supposed to care about what's going on?" The whole film just had an "alien-of-the-week" TV episode feel to it.

It's not that I wanted another "First Contact." In fact, that's precisely what I didn't. I wanted no time travel, less mindless action, and something a little more true to the spirit of the TV series. I wanted what Michael Piller had always excelled at in television -- a strong character story. We didn't get that. I think Piller tried his best, but he failed spectacularly. Ironically, I think Roddenberry would have loved it; it might even have been his favorite Trek film, because it presents our faultless heroes as right and everyone else as wrong.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

2) Why didn't the S'ona go to the Dominion and offer them this deal;

Why would the Dominion care?

Changelings are already immortal and don't give two shits about what would benefit solids, Vorta are also technically immortal since they just dump their memories in a new clone when they die, and Jem'Hadar are mass produced canon fodder that are already easily replaced so there is no incentive to use it on them.

And chances are they were probably already planing to kill all the Cardassians, so no they probably wouldn't be considered either.

 

[SeerSGB]

2) Why didn't the S'ona go to the Dominion and offer them this deal;

Why would the Dominion care?

Changelings are already immortal and don't give two shits about what would benefit solids, Vorta are also technically immortal since they just dump their memories in a new clone when they die, and Jem'Hadar are mass produced canon fodder that are already easily replaced so there is no incentive to use it on them.

And chances are they were probably already planing to kill all the Cardassians, so no they probably wouldn't be considered either.

Keep a resource out of enemy hands. If your enemy can benefit from it, even if you don't want or need it, you deny the enemy the benefit of having it.

 

[JarodRussell]

The crew had no personal stake in the story at all until near the end. They could have warped away at any time.

They couldn't, because they cared for those people.

 

[Hober Mallow]

The crew had no personal stake in the story at all until near the end. They could have warped away at any time.

They couldn't, because they cared for those people.

"Because they're the good guys and they care" just isn't good enough. And it doesn't do the film any good if the heroes care about them but the audience doesn't.

 

[MacLeod]

In YOUR opinion.

Pretty much a given. People enjoy different things and look for different things in entertainment and shouldn't have to tag every post with "in my opinion".

But ultimatly, they are now as native to that planet as US citizens are to the US. And forcing them to leave because the UFP thinks they need some form of radiation....

Sorry. One, it is an apples and oranges comparison as there are currently 360 million Americans. So it wouldn't be practical to move that many people. Two, if six hundred Americans were sitting on a cure for cancer and the only way to get at it was to move them, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I don't care how much they cried "FREEDOM111!1"

I assume of course that you would

a.>Inform them they have to move
b.>Allow them to appeal via the courts
c.>compensate them

 

[SeerSGB]

The crew had no personal stake in the story at all until near the end. They could have warped away at any time.

They couldn't, because they cared for those people.

"Because they're the good guys and they care" just isn't good enough. And it doesn't do the film any good if the heroes care about them but the audience doesn't.

Gotta agree there. "Cause we're the good guys" just doesn't cut it for me with a lot of stories. Especially one as clearly wrong sided as INS.

In YOUR opinion.

Pretty much a given. People enjoy different things and look for different things in entertainment and shouldn't have to tag every post with "in my opinion".

But ultimatly, they are now as native to that planet as US citizens are to the US. And forcing them to leave because the UFP thinks they need some form of radiation....

Sorry. One, it is an apples and oranges comparison as there are currently 360 million Americans. So it wouldn't be practical to move that many people. Two, if six hundred Americans were sitting on a cure for cancer and the only way to get at it was to move them, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I don't care how much they cried "FREEDOM111!1"

I assume of course that you would

a.>Inform them they have to move
b.>Allow them to appeal via the courts
c.>compensate them

Are you native to this planet or star system? How many of you are there?

a.) . Waaa, you're six hundred people that accidentally reaped the rewards of the planet. I've got 6 billion-plus that need this planet. So either you let us land a colony on the planet or get Uhual on the line and pack your shit, it's moving day

b.) Want to appeal? Here, all 600 of you pile into this ship, we'll warp you back to Federation space and stand "guard" over the planet while you're gone.

c.) You want compensation? Well, I have 4 forward torp launchers, 200 torps, and a weapons officer that likes to blow shit up. Can you make change?

This is why I rarely think deeply about Trek movie.

 

[Dick_Valentine]

Did the original ending ever surface for this (the footage, I mean?)

That whole part where the Enterprise zooms back and beams up picard just in time, that's the reshot "new" ending isn't it?

Also, did the scene with Quark ever get off the cutting room floor also? And the one with the actor who plays Rom as a Trill security officer?

There's also an effects mistake in this film too.
When picard beams onto the collector, he's beaming from the Son'a ship he captured to the Son'a collector.
Why, then, is the transporter effect the standard Federation waterfall effect?

 

[SeerSGB]

Did the original ending ever surface for this (the footage, I mean?)

That whole part where the Enterprise zooms back and beams up picard just in time, that's the reshot "new" ending isn't it?

Also, did the scene with Quark ever get off the cutting room floor also? And the one with the actor who plays Rom as a Trill security officer?

There's also an effects mistake in this film too.
When picard beams onto the collector, he's beaming from the Son'a ship he captured to the Son'a collector.
Why, then, is the transporter effect the standard Federation waterfall effect?

I really dislike the collector scene. That whole shot just looked cheap and unfinished. I can forgive the movie for everything but the collector scene and the joytick.

 

[sonak]

- The cat's out of the bag now, what's to keep someone (Ferengi, Romulans, Dominion, Klingons) for rolling up and say "fuck you" to the Baku. Federation space or not, if I heard my enemy had a magical healing world and I couldn't conquer it, I'd send in a warship to scorch the planet.

This has always been my biggest point for moving the Ba'ku. I don't want them getting slaughtered when another power inevitably hears about the fountain of youth. And I don't want to waste resources and potentially the lives of Starfleet personnel defending six-hundred people.

Yeppers. The Romulans or the Dominion aren't going to give a shit about 600 people. For that matter, the S'ona make white which brings up 2 things:

1) Why the fuck is the Federation dealing with a race that creates a key military asset for the enemy.

2) Why didn't the S'ona go to the Dominion and offer them this deal;

3) Why did the Dominion even put up with this arrangement? We should have seen a Dominion dreadnought warp in and beat the snot out of every one and claim the planet.

Okay 3 things.

the Son'a offered the deal to the Federation because the planet was in THEIR space.

Of course, again, they had no reason to offer them the deal if the Federation was going to renounce its claim in favor of the Baku, then the Son'a were free to step in and remove the Baku on their own.


again, the answer to many questions from this movie are "because the writer didn't think the premise through."

 

[Hartzilla2007]

2) Why didn't the S'ona go to the Dominion and offer them this deal;

Why would the Dominion care?

Changelings are already immortal and don't give two shits about what would benefit solids, Vorta are also technically immortal since they just dump their memories in a new clone when they die, and Jem'Hadar are mass produced canon fodder that are already easily replaced so there is no incentive to use it on them.

And chances are they were probably already planing to kill all the Cardassians, so no they probably wouldn't be considered either.

Keep a resource out of enemy hands. If your enemy can benefit from it, even if you don't want or need it, you deny the enemy the benefit of having it.

You over estimate the value of said resource in a war against a civilization that breeds more soldiers every day and builds more ships faster than the Feds do.

Hell one invasion fleet to Bajor and chroniton blast to the wormhole later any advantage the federation has except for an armada of wave motion cannon equipped ships wouldn't mean shit anyway.

Which is why I'm surprised the Dominion never thought to do that.

 

[The Old Mixer]

To the original topic, I think that INS had always been a pretty underwhelming Trek film installment, but it probably also came to be seen as part of bigger problem after NEM, at which point it could be seen as starting a downward spiral. A stronger fourth TNG film would probably have made us more forgiving of the weak third one.

 

[MacLeod]

They couldn't, because they cared for those people.

"Because they're the good guys and they care" just isn't good enough. And it doesn't do the film any good if the heroes care about them but the audience doesn't.

Gotta agree there. "Cause we're the good guys" just doesn't cut it for me with a lot of stories. Especially one as clearly wrong sided as INS.

Pretty much a given. People enjoy different things and look for different things in entertainment and shouldn't have to tag every post with "in my opinion".

Sorry. One, it is an apples and oranges comparison as there are currently 360 million Americans. So it wouldn't be practical to move that many people. Two, if six hundred Americans were sitting on a cure for cancer and the only way to get at it was to move them, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I don't care how much they cried "FREEDOM111!1"

I assume of course that you would

a.>Inform them they have to move
b.>Allow them to appeal via the courts
c.>compensate them

Are you native to this planet or star system? How many of you are there?

a.) . Waaa, you're six hundred people that accidentally reaped the rewards of the planet. I've got 6 billion-plus that need this planet. So either you let us land a colony on the planet or get Uhual on the line and pack your shit, it's moving day

b.) Want to appeal? Here, all 600 of you pile into this ship, we'll warp you back to Federation space and stand "guard" over the planet while you're gone.

c.) You want compensation? Well, I have 4 forward torp launchers, 200 torps, and a weapons officer that likes to blow shit up. Can you make change?

This is why I rarely think deeply about Trek movie.

So you are saying if you happened to live on a plot of land that contained something a foreign government wanted it would be alright for them to come in overnight. Kidnap you dump you halfway around the planet with virtually nothing but the shirt on your back?