Starship Size Argument™ thread

[F. King Daniel]

I think we saw it to be smaller than 725 meters. I don't know what you mean by the idea if being 725 meters. I'll state a couple of examples, the escape ejection scene, the nibiru scene, the shuttle entering Enterprise landing bay in STID and the vengeance crash scene. I'll focus on the two STID scenes, we see the shuttle entering the shuttlebay and it's right there next to the opening structure of the bay, shadows and all. The ship looks a lot smaller than 725 there, the Vengeance crash also shows a Vegeance that's clearly not almost a mile long. Alcatraz is approximately 1 mile away from the waterfront and the Vengeance easily fits into that gap with ample room when it hits the water. Like Daniel's sig, that doesn't show everything but that's the scene I'm talking about

By "idea" I meant just wishing they hadn't scaled up the ship.

Here's a pic of the new shuttlebay, with one of the 40ft "Military Transport" shuttles parked inside. It looks to me the same size as it was in ST'09: http://www.ncc1701shipyard.com/images/highres/shuttlebay3.jpg

And here's the entire Vengeance crash sequence in HD, courtesy of Paramount France.
[YT]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDRblfmXGCc[/YT]
Back when the film opened, Locutus of Bored posted a cool map showing Vengeance's path of destruction, and it's relative size to Alcatraz Island at what we'd guesstimated at the time to be 1450m/4757ft - extremely close to ILM's 4500ft and Qmx's 4800ft figures. I'll see if I can find it.

 

[James]

I think we saw it to be smaller than 725 meters. I don't know what you mean by the idea if being 725 meters. I'll state a couple of examples, the escape ejection scene, the nibiru scene, the shuttle entering Enterprise landing bay in STID and the vengeance crash scene. I'll focus on the two STID scenes, we see the shuttle entering the shuttlebay and it's right there next to the opening structure of the bay, shadows and all. The ship looks a lot smaller than 725 there, the Vengeance crash also shows a Vegeance that's clearly not almost a mile long. Alcatraz is approximately 1 mile away from the waterfront and the Vengeance easily fits into that gap with ample room when it hits the water. Like Daniel's sig, that doesn't show everything but that's the scene I'm talking about

By "idea" I meant just wishing they hadn't scaled up the ship.

Here's a pic of the new shuttlebay, with one of the 40ft "Military Transport" shuttles parked inside. It looks to me the same size as it was in ST'09: http://www.ncc1701shipyard.com/images/highres/shuttlebay3.jpg

And here's the entire Vengeance crash sequence in HD, courtesy of Paramount France.

Back when the film opened, Locutus of Bored posted a cool map showing Vengeance's path of destruction, and it's relative size to Alcatraz Island at what we'd guesstimated at the time to be 1450m/4757ft - extremely close to ILM's 4500ft and Qmx's 4800ft figures. I'll see if I can find it.

I drew the path in google earth from the lighthouse to the waterfront size the island itself is angled and got a 6,382 foot path, the ship would fill more than half of that space if it were 4500 feet long and in the scene it didn't fill more than half. Can you provide the image showing the shuttle itself inside the mouth of that bay in the same image?

 

[F. King Daniel]

Here's the shuttle in the bay in Into Darkness.

Remember also that we see a massive crane inside the bay which moves the shuttles between levels.

And HERE is Locutus of Bored's crash graphic (I hope you don't mind me uploading it from my HD to photobucket,Locutus, but I couldn't find the original thread)

 

[James]

Can you provide an HD image? I find semi blurry images to be unreliable no offense. The Vengeance's saucer was nowhere near the waterfront until a few seconds later, I'm going to have to disagree with Locutus' graphic.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-od7J2_Tei...tar+Trek+Into+Darkness+mystery+ship+crash.jpg

[Converted to link. Pics posted as embedded images should be hosted on your own web space or on an image-sharing account which is registered to you. - M']

 

[M'Sharak]

And HERE is Locutus of Bored's crash graphic (I hope you don't mind me uploading it from my HD to photobucket,Locutus, but I couldn't find the original thread)

The graphic you link originally appeared here, but there's a larger version of Locutus' crash map to be found here or here, which shows Vengeance's ~0.8-mile length fitting neatly into the 1.5-mile gap between Alcatraz and the stretch of The Embarcadero between Pier 39 and Fisherman's Wharf where the crashed ship comes ashore.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Remember also that we see a massive crane inside the bay which moves the shuttles between levels.

The crane was on Earth, not the Enterprise.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I'll focus on the two STID scenes, we see the shuttle entering the shuttlebay and it's right there next to the opening structure of the bay, shadows and all. The ship looks a lot smaller than 725 there...

Not when you consider that for a 725 meter starship, the engineering section would be about 310 meters long -- somewhat smaller than a Nimitz class aircraft carrier. Even less so when you consider that the length from the back of the shuttlebay to the front of the saucer is only about 530 meters; the rest of the ship's length is the engine nacelles.

It's sort of like the skepticism I get when I tell people the International Space Station is over a hundred meters wide. It SEEMS a lot smaller when you're only looking at a small part of it. That's because ISS, like Enterprise, is a very large structure composed of several much smaller ones that are themselves much bigger than they look.

Alcatraz is approximately 1 mile away from the waterfront...

It's actually quite a bit farther than that, depending on the direction you're measuring from.

 

[James]

I'll focus on the two STID scenes, we see the shuttle entering the shuttlebay and it's right there next to the opening structure of the bay, shadows and all. The ship looks a lot smaller than 725 there...

Not when you consider that for a 725 meter starship, the engineering section would be about 310 meters long -- somewhat smaller than a Nimitz class aircraft carrier. Even less so when you consider that the length from the back of the shuttlebay to the front of the saucer is only about 530 meters; the rest of the ship's length is the engine nacelles.

It's sort of like the skepticism I get when I tell people the International Space Station is over a hundred meters wide. It SEEMS a lot smaller when you're only looking at a small part of it. That's because ISS, like Enterprise, is a very large structure composed of several much smaller ones that are themselves much bigger than they look.

Alcatraz is approximately 1 mile away from the waterfront...

It's actually quite a bit farther than that, depending on the direction you're measuring from.

It's 1 to 1.5 miles away, I've looked it up and cited multiple sources.

 

[trevanian]

Yeah, I just skimmed and got a dozen that put it at 1.4 or 1.5, and one that put it at 3/4 mile, which I KNOW is too close. I rode out there a few times as a kid, and it sure ain't two miles away either.

 

[Belz...]

I think we saw it to be smaller than 725 meters. I don't know what you mean by the idea if being 725 meters.

What's meant is that many people refuse to accept that the ship is now bigger than it used to be, so their opinion is not based on evidence.

The evidence presented in this thread is overwhelming.

The ship looks a lot smaller than 725 there

Can you show a picture with your estimates ?

Alcatraz is approximately 1 mile away from the waterfront

And the Vengeance crushes the building with the tip of its engineering section.

 

[anh165]

Also take account that the vengance is pitched forwards so the gap between the front of saucer to the waterfront would be greater than if the ship was level.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I'll focus on the two STID scenes, we see the shuttle entering the shuttlebay and it's right there next to the opening structure of the bay, shadows and all. The ship looks a lot smaller than 725 there...

Not when you consider that for a 725 meter starship, the engineering section would be about 310 meters long -- somewhat smaller than a Nimitz class aircraft carrier. Even less so when you consider that the length from the back of the shuttlebay to the front of the saucer is only about 530 meters; the rest of the ship's length is the engine nacelles.

It's sort of like the skepticism I get when I tell people the International Space Station is over a hundred meters wide. It SEEMS a lot smaller when you're only looking at a small part of it. That's because ISS, like Enterprise, is a very large structure composed of several much smaller ones that are themselves much bigger than they look.

Alcatraz is approximately 1 mile away from the waterfront...

It's actually quite a bit farther than that, depending on the direction you're measuring from.

It's 1 to 1.5 miles away, I've looked it up and cited multiple sources.

1.5 miles is 2.4 kilometers. Which means that the moment Vengeance hit Alcatraz, the tip of its saucer was at least 1800 meters away from the shoreline (possibly farther, depending on its flight path). If the ship is falling through the air at 650 miles per hour (about 300 meters per second) then from the time it hit Alcatraz to the time it hit San Francisco would be a MINIMUM of 5 seconds. Considering both the collision with Alcatraz and the water a moment later would have slowed the ship considerably, then Alcatraz to Frisco would be ten to twelve seconds.

Which is about what happens in the movie.

 

[Set Harth]

I don't get why Sulu says there's no way anyone could have survived the Vengeance crash. It looks like a lot of people could have survived that.

 

[James]

This and this, before it enters the mouth of the shuttlebay and while it's in the mouth.

Also take account that the vengance is pitched forwards so the gap between the front of saucer to the waterfront would be greater than if the ship was level.

The Vengeance wasn't pitched forward that much, just enough for the front of the saucer to be slightly submerged. Someone could draw an outline of th saucer and curve it back around.

 

[James]

Here is the Vengeance above the eastern tip of the island and right before it goes for a short swim.

 

[F. King Daniel]

And HERE is Locutus of Bored's crash graphic (I hope you don't mind me uploading it from my HD to photobucket,Locutus, but I couldn't find the original thread)

The graphic you link originally appeared here, but there's a larger version of Locutus' crash map to be found here or here, which shows Vengeance's ~0.8-mile length fitting neatly into the 1.5-mile gap between Alcatraz and the stretch of The Embarcadero between Pier 39 and Fisherman's Wharf where the crashed ship comes ashore.

Thank you! The one I uploaded was the full size one, it seems photobucket shrunk it down. Bizarro.

This and this, before it enters the mouth of the shuttlebay and while it's in the mouth.

In both of these pics, the shuttle is closer to the camera than the Enterprise.

How do you explain the enourmous shuttlebay they cut to right after this scene? Do you pretend it doesn't exist? And what about fitting the circular corridor stack under the saucer top dome and fitting the bridge in front of deck 2? They fit perfectly into a 725m Enterprise, any smaller and it would be physically impossible.

Here is the Vengeance above the eastern tip of the island and right before it goes for a short swim.

The Vengeance/Alcatraz Island size here seems to match Locutus' map.

 

[James]

And HERE is Locutus of Bored's crash graphic (I hope you don't mind me uploading it from my HD to photobucket,Locutus, but I couldn't find the original thread)

The graphic you link originally appeared here, but there's a larger version of Locutus' crash map to be found here or here, which shows Vengeance's ~0.8-mile length fitting neatly into the 1.5-mile gap between Alcatraz and the stretch of The Embarcadero between Pier 39 and Fisherman's Wharf where the crashed ship comes ashore.

Thank you! The one I uploaded was the full size one, it seems photobucket shrunk it down. Bizarro.

This and this, before it enters the mouth of the shuttlebay and while it's in the mouth.

In both of these pics, the shuttle is closer to the camera than the Enterprise.

Here is the Vengeance above the eastern tip of the island and right before it goes for a short swim.

The Vengeance/Alcatraz Island size here seems to match Locutus' map. How do you explain the enourmous shuttlebay they cut to right after this scene? Do you pretend it doesn't exist? And what about fitting the circular corridor stack under the saucer top dome and fitting the bridge in front of deck 2? They fit perfectly into a 725m Enterprise, any smaller and it would be physically impossible.

The Vengeance in this scene is noticable smaller than the one in Locutus' map and the shuttle is right in the mouth of the shuttlebay opening within feet of colliding with the structure so it's definitely not closer to the camera. The enormous shuttlebay is because they like to wing it when it comes to portraying the ship's size, it goes from small to big to small over and over again. The circular shaft thing is unknown, when Kirk and Scotty are running toward engineering they appear to run toward the starboard side of the ship veering around a corner then entering the shaft area. I was looking at old posts on this thread and that scene directly conflicts with the set floorplan you posted a few pages back. Sickbay is somewhere in the saucer on the backside near the neck's connecting point and the transporter room is probably on the opposite side. We can't take this ship literally because there are huge scene holes that make it impossible to know which deck they are on. Like in the ship falling scene, after Kirk and Scotty leave the shaft they enter another curved corrider with a turbolift door behind them. The movie comic book in 2009 showed Kirk in the lounge on the back of the bridge module, with the huge slotted windows. This ship has no consistency what so ever in my opinion, the saucer's center is supposed to have a computer core and this ship doesn't. The shuttlebay is also shorter than it was in 2009, it now has the platform shown in ID where they were looking at the advanced torpedoes.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The Vengeance in this scene is noticable smaller than the one in Locutus' map

You're assuming the trajectory that Vengeance hits the island in the map to be absolute, when it's just an estimate. Rotate the ship a tiny bit and they're a match.

and the shuttle is right in the mouth of the shuttlebay opening within feet of colliding with the structure so it's definitely not closer to the camera.

The shuttle is over the mouth of the shuttlebay from our viewpoint, but it's in front of, not inside. And I ask again, what about the enourmous shuttlebay we cut to immediately afterwards, with 40ft shuttles parked along the sides like they were in STXI? And the layout of the bridge and plaza behind? And enourmous engimeering sections? You're looking for little perspective tricks to prove you're right, while ignoring overwhelming evidence that shows you're wrong.

 

[James]

The Vengeance in this scene is noticable smaller than the one in Locutus' map

You're assuming the trajectory that Vengeance hits the island in the map to be absolute, when it's just an estimate. Rotate the ship a tiny bit and they're a match.

and the shuttle is right in the mouth of the shuttlebay opening within feet of colliding with the structure so it's definitely not closer to the camera.

The shuttle is over the mouth of the shuttlebay from our viewpoint, but it's in front of, not inside. And I ask again, what about the enourmous shuttlebay we cut to immediately afterwards, with 40ft shuttles parked along the sides like they were in STXI? And the layout of the bridge and plaza behind? And enourmous engimeering sections? You're looking for little perspective tricks to prove you're right, while ignoring overwhelming evidence that shows you're wrong.

Yes it is inside, look at the shadow on top of the shuttle.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The Vengeance in this scene is noticable smaller than the one in Locutus' map and the shuttle is right in the mouth of the shuttlebay opening within feet of colliding with the structure so it's definitely not closer to the camera.

I don't see any shadow, but the shuttle/bay size ratio in the second shot (where it's turning to the bay and getting closer) actually does look to me to be almost the same as this:

The enormous shuttlebay is because they like to wing it when it comes to portraying the ship's size, it goes from small to big to small over and over again.

The idea of the shuttlebay changing size comes from Ex Astris Scientia, and was disproven earlier in the thread:

It's all big, all the time. And if it's big, surely the ship must be big to fit it, right?

The circular shaft thing is unknown,

Dome at the top, dome at the bottom. 16+ decks with a wider deck spacing than any prior Enterprise. There is nowhere else it could possibly go, and as you'll see here, they fit perfectly into a 725m Enterprise.

The only way the ship would be smaller than 725m would be if you completely ignore it. Why the need to do so?

Earlier you mentioned the airlocks, here is a comparison of the airlocks on the classic movie Enterprise (and that's a shot of the filming model, btw) and the new one:

when Kirk and Scotty are running toward engineering they appear to run toward the starboard side of the ship veering around a corner then entering the shaft area.

They're leaving the brig, somewhere in the saucer, and are heading to Engineering below.

I was looking at old posts on this thread and that scene directly conflicts with the set floorplan you posted a few pages back. Sickbay is somewhere in the saucer on the backside near the neck's connecting point and the transporter room is probably on the opposite side.

As I told a previous poster, that was the real-world set, not how the Enterprise is supposed to be arranged in-universe. Every single Star Trek series and movie has arranged their sets similarly - for The Motion Picture, the engine room set was just around the corner from sickbay, which is obviously not where they're meant to be on the "real" ship in-universe.

We can't take this ship literally because there are huge scene holes that make it impossible to know which deck they are on.

You can instantly tell which deck the crew are on in every other Trek?

Like in the ship falling scene, after Kirk and Scotty leave the shaft they enter another curved corrider with a turbolift door behind them.

You are aware that the same stretches of corridors represent the entire ship in EVERY Star Trek show ever made? The same corridors will be on deck 5 in one episode, and deck 36 in another.

The movie comic book in 2009 showed Kirk in the lounge on the back of the bridge module, with the huge slotted windows.

The comics also had frequently used the movie Enterprise and one time even the Enterprise-D in place of the correct one. They previously released a TOS comic in which the old Enterprise bridge was covered in 24th century LCARS graphics. They certainly can't be used a reliable resource.

This ship has no consistency what so ever in my opinion, the saucer's center is supposed to have a computer core and this ship doesn't.

Some Trek ships in some of the other series' and movies have had computer cores in the centre of the saucer. Not all, and clearly not this alternate reality Enterprise.

The shuttlebay is also shorter than it was in 2009, it now has the platform shown in ID where they were looking at the advanced torpedoes.

It seemed the same massive size to me, but I'll have to wait for the DVD to be sure. In any case and even if the bay were refitted between movies, two levels of 40ft shuttles line the bay as they did in STXI.

I think what you're calling inconsistancies are just clashes with your preconcieved notion of how the Enterprise "should" be, based on what you've seen in previous Star Treks. As the advertising campaign for STXI said, "Forget everything you know" - Vulcan is gone, James Kirk never knew his father, Uhura and Spock are lovers and Starfleet builds a lot bigger than they did in the Prime universe.