The most evil individual and most evil regime in Star Trek

[Dale Sams]

J. J. Abrams and the Bad Robot regime.

Anyway, a lot of the evil in Star Trek is a bit to 'simple' evil for me, there aren't a lot of layers to them. They are simply portrayed as being 'the bad guy'. I prefer it when my 'evil' considers itself the good guy. Like The Dominion. They didn't see themselves as conquerers, but as bringers of peace and order. Basicly what the Federation does, however both have a different approach to the situation. Hell, in a weird way, even the Borg look at themselves like that. Just at humanity is always trying to better itself, so are the Borg looking for perfection. The only real difference, is that humanity knows it won't actually achive perfection itself.

Almost every petty and psychopathic dictator uses that "I am restoring order" reason to justify their rule, but all it is an excuse.

Did Hitler, Stalin or Kim Ill Sung bring peace and order to those they ruled or did they create a nightmare scenario, where the regimes they created brought pain and misery to millions?

The Dominion, has way too many acts of petty cruelty to considered just misguided. The Dominion's actions in "The Quickening" are not that of a benevolent dictatorship that wants the best for all, but of a truly a cruel and petty tyrant that brutalizes people to scare others into obeying by making an example of someone. That is not even remotely moral or justifiable.

No one thinks they are evil in real life, but any psychopath can come with justifications for their actions, even serial killers and mob bosses can do that, it doesn't make them good people or even morally ambiguous.

The rules are very simple. Obey, give your quota, get along...failure will result in the Jem'Hadar. But overall, I agree with you. I don't think the Founders particularly got their rocks off making people suffer. They just want things to work like clockwork as to insure their existence.

But I agree with you more or less on the Dominion. The Borg, I lean more towards Ray Wise's saying they were a force of nature. That stuff about 'trying to achieve perfection, I'm not a fan of. How do they measure perfection? What will they do when they get there? What would th Borg do if they assimilated the galaxy? Give each other a high-five and call it a day?

 

[Shawnster]

No one thinks they are evil in real life, but any psychopath can come with justifications for their actions, even serial killers and mob bosses can do that, it doesn't make them good people or even morally ambiguous.

Therefore, the moral judgement of evil simply cannot be based on the morals of the individual or the group being judged. It is irrelevant to argue that the Borg can't be evil because they have no understanding or concept of what evil is. Since they are the subject of the debate, their opinion of what constitutes evil is inherently biased in their favor. As Overlord stated (which is the reason why I quoted him), the vast majority of people and organizations that we (and history) view as evil never felt that they themselves were evil. They felt they were the ideal that others should aspire to (or service).

 

[Roboturner913]

No one thinks they are evil in real life, but any psychopath can come with justifications for their actions, even serial killers and mob bosses can do that, it doesn't make them good people or even morally ambiguous.

Therefore, the moral judgement of evil simply cannot be based on the morals of the individual or the group being judged. It is irrelevant to argue that the Borg can't be evil because they have no understanding or concept of what evil is. Since they are the subject of the debate, their opinion of what constitutes evil is inherently biased in their favor. As Overlord stated (which is the reason why I quoted him), the vast majority of people and organizations that we (and history) view as evil never felt that they themselves were evil. They felt they were the ideal that others should aspire to (or service).

But how much critical thought goes into the Borg's processes as a whole? I suppose that's something we don't really know. I guess the queen projects evil, but she seems to be a product of the Borg hive mind programming. So we don't know whether its her actual consciousness or if her persona a manifestation of the hive.

 

[Belz...]

J. J. Abrams and the Bad Robot regime.

Don't be so quick to laugh: to some people it's actually true.

 

[bbjeg]

Roboturner913 makes a good point, I'm switching my most evil individual pick with Soran. The Borg are still my most evil regime pick.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Soran was willing to kill 230 million people on Veridian IV, destroy two stars, torture another person and hand the Klingons a weapon of mass destruction.

Wanting, in this case, is weak. Soran was impelled psychologically toward his act: he was not interested in creating suffering or driven by an ideology. And his impulses had a clear end: once he entered the Nexus he would have been satisfied. Other villains in ST have open ended commitments. The Female Changeling wanted the Cardassians to suffer out of spite. Her intention was to eliminate them. And that is without analyzing how she directed the war against the Alpha Quadrant alliance, the actions of the Jem'Hadar, or the results of promising territory to the Breen.

 

[1001001]

Roboturner913 makes a good point, I'm switching my most evil individual pick with Soran. The Borg are still my most evil regime pick.

Soran is a good pick. He knows better, but doesn't care.

But he's also traumatized, so there's a tiny bit of context, (not that it matters especially on that scale).

As for the Borg, you could say the Borg Queen is evil, but the Borg collectively I think are little more than tools. The hammer is not evil, only the person swinging it.

That's why I suggested the Sphere Builders. They have full awareness of what they're doing, individually and collectively.

 

[bbjeg]

...And his impulses had a clear end: once he entered the Nexus he would have been satisfied.

Soran did give a supernova weapon to the Duras sisters. His action could have caused billions of deaths after he left.

...the Borg Queen is evil, but the Borg collectively I think are little more than tools. The hammer is not evil, only the person swinging it.

Though they are drones, we've seen cubes separated from the Queen with her base directives still intact. They're very complex hammers.

 

[sonak]

The Borg aren't evil. Evil implies immorality but the Borg have no concept of morality at all. They aren't any more evil, than say, a swarm of wasps. They'll kill you if you're a threat but it's instinctual.

To me the most evil characters are the ones that recognize that they are behaving immorally but disregard it because to do otherwise would hinder their objective (emotional need).

By this measure the most "evil" villains are people like Khan and Soran.

Soran?

he didn't want to hurt anyone, he just wanted to get back to the Nexus. His actions were evil, but not his motives.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

He did give a supernova weapon to the Duras sisters. His action could have caused billions of deaths after he left.

Is a weapons builder tacitly evil? Were the Duras intent on using the weapon to destroy inhabited worlds? I doubt that. It's more likely that they would destroy an uninhabited system, and use the demonstration in order to rally support for their takeover of the High Council.

 

[Roboturner913]

Soran?

he didn't want to hurt anyone, he just wanted to get back to the Nexus. His actions were evil, but not his motives.

He tried to kill 230 million people just so he could fulfill his one selfish desire. If that is not the very definition of evil, then evil does not exist.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

He tried to kill 230 million people just so he could fulfill his one selfish desire. If that is not the very definition of evil, then evil does not exist.

By those criteria, Female Changeling still enjoys the advantage as most evil: 800 million out of spite. And that number could have gone significantly higher without intervention.

 

[sonak]

Soran?

he didn't want to hurt anyone, he just wanted to get back to the Nexus. His actions were evil, but not his motives.

He tried to kill 230 million people just so he could fulfill his one selfish desire. If that is not the very definition of evil, then evil does not exist.

"just"?

his goal was to return to paradise, something many of us could probably sympathize with. That's not exactly some minor goal, like getting a million dollars or something. Again, his actions were evil, but as he said, he spent decades looking for another option that would allow him to avoid hurting others but couldn't find one.


He wasn't even close to being among the more evil of Star Trek villains.

 

[Belz...]

Also, the Borg stated they wish to improve the quality of life for all species. That's what THEY believe. So no, they don't subscribe to YOUR view of evil.

If we define evil as being something that the person does for evil's sake, then no one is evil and the question is meaningless. Posters have to answer what _they_ consider to be evil, not what the villain considers to be evil.

That said, I have no answer for now. I'll have to think about it.

his goal was to return to paradise, something many of us could probably sympathize with. That's not exactly some minor goal, like getting a million dollars or something.

Yes, actually, it is.

Ok, I vote Soran. Plus he kinda killed Kirk and is indirectly responsible for downing the Enterprise-D.

 

[Captain Rob]

I'll vote for Soran but for no other fact that he is responsible for the death of the single most important character in all of Star Trek. Captain James T. Kirk.

 

[bbjeg]

He did give a supernova weapon to the Duras sisters. His action could have caused billions of deaths after he left.

Is a weapons builder tacitly evil? Were the Duras intent on using the weapon to destroy inhabited worlds? I doubt that. It's more likely that they would destroy an uninhabited system, and use the demonstration in order to rally support for their takeover of the High Council.

A weapons builder isn't tacitly evil but Soran used the weapon in an inhabited system. He is not just a weapon builder.

 

[Roboturner913]

"just"?

his goal was to return to paradise, something many of us could probably sympathize with.

If my goal is to get a free pastrami sandwich at Quiznos, and the only way to do that is rob Quiznos at gunpoint, I simply choose not to do so.

he spent decades looking for another option that would allow him to avoid hurting others but couldn't find one.

If anything, that makes him even more evil, because it shows that he clearly knows the consequences of his actions and chooses the evil path anyway.

 

[Roboturner913]

By those criteria, Female Changeling still enjoys the advantage as most evil: 800 million out of spite. And that number could have gone significantly higher without intervention.

I take female changeling to be an extension of the Founders as a whole (the ocean becomes a drop); also the Founders motivations had much to do with their own self-preservation after being oppressed and/or victimized much of their existence.

What they did is still evil, but self-preservation is a much more understandable reason than "I wanna go back to Nexus because it was really really really fun there"

 

[JirinPanthosa]

What's his name the Krenim timeship guy = Most evil by far
The Borg = Most evil organization

Having a goal we can sympathize with does not make somebody less despicable. I can sympathize with somebody wanting to get laid, that doesn't mean I hate them less when they commit rape. Soran was willing to murder people to get himself back to paradise, that is really despicable.

But I would say the people who kill out of necessity and best interest are marginally less evil than those who kill for it's own sake or out of personal gain.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

By those criteria, Female Changeling still enjoys the advantage as most evil: 800 million out of spite. And that number could have gone significantly higher without intervention.

I take female changeling to be an extension of the Founders as a whole (the ocean becomes a drop); also the Founders motivations had much to do with their own self-preservation after being oppressed and/or victimized much of their existence.

What they did is still evil, but self-preservation is a much more understandable reason than "I wanna go back to Nexus because it was really really really fun there"

The Female Changeling was very much cut off from the Great Link. Being in the Great Link was the only way for the drop to become the ocean. There's only so far that she can be an extension of the Founders in this circumstance, unless you can prove she was telepathically connected to them in the Gamma Quadrant.

Self-preservation had nothing to do with the genocide in What You Leave Behind. We know that her motivations had nothing to do with self-preservation: they had everything to do with her personal anger and frustration. Soran was indifferent to the lives lost in pursuit of the Nexus. Indeed, Guinan described the desire to return to the Nexus as extraordinarily strong and difficult to shake. I don't think it unreasonable to compare it to addiction. At no point does Soran say he wants anyone dead. Never is he shown going out of his way to kill anyone.