Warp Drive in Star Trek Into Darkness - [SPOILERS]

[Belz...]

It's actually not that hard to establish

Go !

considering that Voyager and DS9 had already been cancelled by the time "Broken Bow" aired and Nemesis hit theaters barely a year later.

Canceled ? Didn't they just end their run at 7 seasons ?

In particular, the experiment with Archer's Beagle is a double reference, since it basically duplicates the circumstances of Emory's so-called sub-quantum transporter without the need for going into a whole different episode (and transwarp beaming itself seems to be derived from it).

I'm sorry but that's a stretch. It's a reference to Enterprise. Count it: one.

The crew uniforms on the Kelvin are another big one; the jumpsuit style is basically an update on the old 22nd century Starfleet uniforms, meant to show a transitional state before the shirt and slacks look 30 years later.

Which is NOT a reference to Enterprise.

Same again for the pop-up phaser turrets on the Kelvin, which the FX team explicitly mention as being inspired by the weapon systems on NX-01.

We didn't see weapons turrets on Enterprise, if memory serves. Do you have a link for that ?

So we're still up to 1 reference in ST09 and 1 (the models) in STID.

And as I said: the entire TOS crew, their ship, technology and backdrop is recreated in those movies. That alone, not counting Khan and the other stuff, is more referencing than Enterprise. But if you want to redefine "reference" to exclude the main setting and only include off-hand stuff, be my guest.

 

[Maxillius]

The crew uniforms on the Kelvin are another big one; the jumpsuit style is basically an update on the old 22nd century Starfleet uniforms, meant to show a transitional state before the shirt and slacks look 30 years later.

Which is NOT a reference to Enterprise.

How is it *not* a reference to Enterprise?? OK, maybe it's a nod, but a nod is stil in REFERENCE. Besides, those jumpsuits weren't nearly as updated as they should've been for being 80 years in ENT's future, probably to make the reference to ENT more obvious.

Same again for the pop-up phaser turrets on the Kelvin, which the FX team explicitly mention as being inspired by the weapon systems on NX-01.

We didn't see weapons turrets on Enterprise, if memory serves. Do you have a link for that?

Yup. en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Phase_cannon

The cannons of NX-class starships were mounted on retractable turrets which extended from the ship's hull when deployed and rotated as they were being targeted.

The point is that nuTrek is in ENT's timeline so that TOS can be reimagined and everything else can be ignored.

 

[Belz...]

How is it *not* a reference to Enterprise??

Because, aside from generally looking like them, it's not those actual uniforms, unlike the models on Marcus' desk.

Yup.

Thanks. I only saw the series once yet.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

considering that Voyager and DS9 had already been cancelled by the time "Broken Bow" aired and Nemesis hit theaters barely a year later.

Canceled ? Didn't they just end their run at 7 seasons ?

I know Voyager did, but for some reason I had the impression DS9 was planning at least one more season after 7 and they decided not to continue about halfway through.

I'm sorry but that's a stretch.

No more so than the frequent appearance of tribbles is a reference to TOS. I'll be generous, though, and call it an "homage."

The crew uniforms on the Kelvin are another big one; the jumpsuit style is basically an update on the old 22nd century Starfleet uniforms, meant to show a transitional state before the shirt and slacks look 30 years later.

Which is NOT a reference to Enterprise.

Of course it is. Just like Pike and Marcus' uniforms -- and the command insignia on Kirk's dress uniform -- are stylistic references to TMP.

It would be the same if Spock Prime showed up with an IDIC commbadge on his shirt; we wouldn't need to ask what that is a reference to.

Same again for the pop-up phaser turrets on the Kelvin, which the FX team explicitly mention as being inspired by the weapon systems on NX-01.

We didn't see weapons turrets on Enterprise, if memory serves. Do you have a link for that ?

See gunports.
See phase cannons.

And as I said: the entire TOS crew, their ship, technology and backdrop is recreated in those movies.

Which isn't a REFERENCE at all, but a wholesale recreation. Technically it's a SELF reference since it's supposed to be the same universe with minor but interesting alterations.

But if you want to redefine "reference" to exclude the main setting and only include off-hand stuff, be my guest.

Whether I do or not, it doesn't change the fact that STID and ST09 make more references to Enterprise than any other movie or TV series. I'm deeply confused why anyone would find that surprising since none of the other movies/series really had an opportunity to do so before they went off the air... but more importantly, the history established by Enterprise is noticeably different from that established by TOS, enough to wonder if ST09 isn't simply the natural progression from the ENT timeline anyway.

 

[Belz...]

I know Voyager did, but for some reason I had the impression DS9 was planning at least one more season after 7 and they decided not to continue about halfway through.

Well from what I saw in the DVD extras they just decided not to extend it, and just end it after the regular number of seasons. Nana Visitor said she wanted to continue.

No more so than the frequent appearance of tribbles is a reference to TOS. I'll be generous, though, and call it an "homage."

I didn't say it wasn't a reference, though, but since it's in the same breath, I wouldn't call it two. In any case the number of Enterprise references is dwarfed by the TOS ones. However, since TNG, DS9 and VOY haven't happened except for Spock Prime, one expects ENT to be second in that department.

Of course it is.

The Kelvin uniforms look nothing like those on Enterprise. Unless you can find a quote saying that they were designed with that series in mind, I simply disagree with you on this.

Which isn't a REFERENCE at all, but a wholesale recreation. Technically it's a SELF reference since it's supposed to be the same universe with minor but interesting alterations.

Don't you think we're splitting hairs, here ? Reference, homage, recreation. They're all recalling to prior Trek stuff. There is no reason to have, say, Kirk's uniform be so similar to the original one except to recall TOS.

But if you want to redefine "reference" to exclude the main setting and only include off-hand stuff, be my guest.

Whether I do or not, it doesn't change the fact that STID and ST09 make more references to Enterprise than any other movie or TV series.

Actually, it's only a fact _IF_ you redefine the word.

I'm deeply confused why anyone would find that surprising

I didn't say I found it surprising. I said it wasn't true.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I'm deeply confused why anyone would find that surprising

I didn't say I found it surprising. I said it wasn't true.

Then explain it to me. Ball's in your court: Which TV series or movies made more Enterprise references than ST09/STID?

And I ask this because clearly you have references in mind to be so adamant about this; as for me, I hate Voyager and Insurrection WAY too much to start hunting for ENT references there, and I refuse to carefully watch any part of Nemesis until right before the Scimitar opens fire on them. There may be something burred in there, but I haven't seen it, and it's still FAR less than ST09 and STID.

 

[Belz...]

...wait, was the claim that Enterprise was referenced by the new movies more than by any other movie or series, or what Enterprise was referenced more by the new movies than any other movie or series ?

Because I understood the latter. If it's the former, then it's even more nonsensical, since NOTHING came out between Enterprise and ST09.

Also, since in our discussion you seemed to agree that they were referencing/calling back to TOS, I still think you meant the latter.

But now you ask this:

Which TV series or movies made more Enterprise references than ST09/STID?

???

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Then explain it to me. Ball's in your court: Which TV series or movies made more Enterprise references than ST09/STID?

I have answered that question several times already.

Clearly I missed it, so be clear.
How many Enterprise references in Voyager and what were they?
How many Enterprise references in Insurrection and what were they?
How many Enterprise references in Nemesis and what were they?

And if you think I didn't, what do you think I meant when I said TNG, DS9 and VOY haven't happened, so we expect ENT to be second. What do you think is first, exactly ?

Are you asking me about their production order or chronological order or is that just a rhetorical question?

 

[Belz...]

Ok I just went back to the beginning of this. Here's the original post:

(5) If there is one Star Trek show ST09 and STID are proudly referencing as its predecessor, it is Star Trek: Enterprise

So I was right. Your last question makes no sense in context. We are discussing ENT references in ST09/STID in relation to references to other Trek shows in the same two movies, not references to ENT in other shows, which is impossible.

EDIT: And sorry about the edit to my previous post. In my confusion I erased the whole thing and started over because I wasn't sure exactly what you were asking.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

...wait, was the claim that Enterprise was referenced by the new movies more than by any other movie or series, or what Enterprise was referenced more by the new movies than any other movie or series ?

Because I understood the latter. If it's the former, then it's even more nonsensical, since NOTHING came out between Enterprise and ST09.

Right....

The point is, through no fault of their own, Enterprise -- and everything even slightly related to it -- remains completely unknown throughout every other Trek series. The only one that would be expected to have referenced it would be Nemesis, since as I said earlier it was released AFTER Broken Bow. Conversely, Enterprise very poorly and haphazardly incorporates elements from previous trek series and winds up retconing every single one of them (subspace radio, cloaking devices, Klingons, Ferengi, the Organians, etc).

This suggests that things have been happening in Enterprise VERY differently than they happened in the Prime Timeline, especially if we consider TAS canon, in which case the Bonaventure should have been the first Warp Five starship and Arcerher's mission is at least fifty years earlier than it should be (which makes sense, since as others have mentioned, its technology is at least fifty years too advanced). Either way, SOMETHING screwed up the ENT timeline -- probably Barclay lost his communicator in the men's room or something -- and Starfleet was seen fielding cheap knockoffs of 23rd century technology as early as the 2150s. A century later, we're seeing the same accelerated development: starships of a size and power that would rival some of the 24th century counterparts, yet lacking the refinements and sophistication embodied in the later Ambassadors and Galaxy classes (in the same way that NX-01 was basically a primitive attempt at a Constitution class). It's obvious, then, that ST09 branches off at the ENT timeline, which for whatever reason has a much faster technology progression -- for EVERYONE, it seems not just for Earth -- which is the in-universe reason why it makes multiple overt (and several not so overt) references to some of those historical 22nd century events and TOS does not.

Here's a very interesting question: ignoring, for a moment, the Enterprise novels and given the state of affairs left off after "Babel One" and "Unity," what is the likelihood that the Earth-Romulan Wars EVEN HAPPENED in the Abrams timeline?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Ok I just went back to the beginning of this. Here's the original post:

(5) If there is one Star Trek show ST09 and STID are proudly referencing as its predecessor, it is Star Trek: Enterprise

So I was right. Your last question makes no sense in context. We are discussing ENT references in ST09/STID in relation to references to other Trek shows in the same two movies, not references to ENT in other shows, which is impossible.

Yeah, you have that EXACTLY backwards.

Abrams Trek is referncing Enterprise as its predecessor because both in-universe and in production order, Enterprise IS its predecessor. What's curious -- from an in universe perspective -- is that none of the other series do, with the singular exception of Nemesis (buddy pointed out the "Valdore" reference that I had forgotten about).

TNG, Voyager, DS9 and the movies ALL contain direct and explicit references to TOS, including time-travel events, flashbacks, homages, mentions, even the occasional cameo. But there is no mention anywhere of the events depicted in Enterprise, and Enterprise goes out of its way to AVOID events that in any way resemble things that have been referred to before (places, yes, but not EVENTS).

Put that another way, as much as it pains me to say it: Abrams trek is effectively "Enterprise: the Next Generation."

 

[Belz...]

Conversely, Enterprise very poorly and haphazardly incorporates elements from previous trek series and winds up retconing every single one of them (subspace radio, cloaking devices, Klingons, Ferengi, the Organians, etc).

One of the things I did when I watched Enterprise is take it as a full reboot, even if I knew it wasn't one. This allowed me to enjoy the series on its own merits, although I admit I would've liked if it had not messed up its own premise by constantly referencing to future stuff.

This suggests that things have been happening in Enterprise VERY differently than they happened in the Prime Timeline

I'm still of the mind that Enterprise is a direct result of meddling in First Contact, and that it is, itself, an alternate timeline to the previous one (opening the door to the possibility that every time travel event creates a new chain of events, despite the claims in-universe that it was predestined).

Here's a very interesting question: ignoring, for a moment, the Enterprise novels and given the state of affairs left off after "Babel One" and "Unity," what is the likelihood that the Earth-Romulan Wars EVEN HAPPENED in the Abrams timeline?

I think there's a strong implication that it was imminent in the fourth season, and it seemed to be the intention of the production before it was cancelled to actually show the start of the war, or the events leading up to it.

Yeah, you have that EXACTLY backwards.

No, you're the one who changed the question in mid-conversation, so it's understandable that I was confused. Again, your question makes no sense: aside from Nemesis, there is nothing produced in canon Trek since Enterprise, so of course not only are ST09/STID referencing ENT more than any other movie or show, but they are the only ones that can.

In a franchise like Trek, one has to take things in narrative order, not chronological order.

Put that another way, as much as it pains me to say it: Abrams trek is effectively "Enterprise: the Next Generation."

Well unsurprisingly I disagree with you. I see little or no relation between ENT and the new movies, except the aforementioned references.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Conversely, Enterprise very poorly and haphazardly incorporates elements from previous trek series and winds up retconing every single one of them (subspace radio, cloaking devices, Klingons, Ferengi, the Organians, etc).

One of the things I did when I watched Enterprise is take it as a full reboot, even if I knew it wasn't one.

Yep. Now that the Abramsverse has directly accepted the title as its successor, we no longer have to pretend that Enterprise had anything at all to do with TOS.

I think there's a strong implication that it was imminent in the fourth season, and it seemed to be the intention of the production before it was cancelled to actually show the start of the war, or the events leading up to it.

Maybe, maybe not (I'd have liked to see it to).

But then we remember how Spock described the war: with "primitive atomic weapons" and in "primitive space vessels which allowed no quarter, no captives, nor was there even ship-to-ship visual communications." Enterprise down all three of those in the first episode, and "Babel One" put the final nail in the coffin.

Which means the Season-4 Earth-Romulan War would have looked NOTHING like Spock's description; even if Earth for some reason wound up using primitive nuclear weapons, the ROMULANS were not and already various forms of cloaking technology. All of Coalition fleets had modern directed energy weapons, deflector shields and tractor beams.

Whatever happened with the Romulans after Enterprise, it has NO resemblance to history as TOS remembers it.

Yeah, you have that EXACTLY backwards.

No, you're the one who changed the question in mid-conversation

I didn't ASK a question. I said:

"And ST09 and STID have, between the two of them, made more references to Enterprise than all of the other Trek series and movies combined. That's at least one reason to believe that ST09 branches off from THAT universe and that Archer's timeline was separate from TOS all along."

This in response to your assertion that the Abrams movies are using more TOS references than ENT references; my reply was that that's sort of SELF referential since this is meant to replace TOS, not follow it up.

Interestingly, excluding SELF references, the statement is actually true no matter how you interpret it. YES the Abrams movies draw more from the ENT history than any previous trek production; YES the Abrams movies use Enterprise as its fictional history to the exclusion of all others. They sure as hell aren't using TOS' fictional history, considering it's already 2259 and Number One is nowhere in sight.

Put that another way, as much as it pains me to say it: Abrams trek is effectively "Enterprise: the Next Generation."

Well unsurprisingly I disagree with you. I see little or no relation between ENT and the new movies, except the aforementioned references.

That's kinda what I meant: TNG had little or no relation to TOS either, except for an Admiral with a famous name and a wall display with some models in it.

 

[M'Sharak]

I'm deeply confused why anyone would find that surprising

I didn't say I found it surprising. I said it wasn't true.

Then explain it to me. Ball's in your court: Which TV series or movies made more Enterprise references than ST09/STID?

And I ask this because clearly you have references in mind to be so adamant about this; as for me, I hate Voyager and Insurrection WAY too much to start hunting for ENT references there, and I refuse to carefully watch any part of Nemesis until right before the Scimitar opens fire on them. There may be something burred in there, but I haven't seen it, and it's still FAR less than ST09 and STID.

I think I see what's happening here. When I posted the following:

And ST09 and STID have, between the two of them, made more references to Enterprise than all of the other Trek series and movies combined.

Call me skeptical, but an assertion like that makes me want to see the list of all references, with statistical breakdown by series and/or movie.

I guess I must have been misreading your post to be saying that the AbramsTrek movies have made more references to Enterprise than AbramsTrek movies have made to all of the other series and movies combined, and it was that meaning which my reply addressed.

Because it completely escaped me that one would bother in the first place making the bleeding obvious statement that AbramsTrek made more references to Enterprise than all of the other series and movies combined have made references to Enterprise.

 

[Belz...]

This in response to your assertion that the Abrams movies are using more TOS references than ENT references; my reply was that that's sort of SELF referential since this is meant to replace TOS, not follow it up.

I think we're somehow miscommunicating here because we're using different definitions for several words.