Vengeance Weapons (Spoilers, maybe)

[WarpFactorZ]

In the Spock-to-Spock chat, we learn that he has told Starfleet of Khan, and where to find him; it follows that he would tell of the Space Amoeba and the rest as well.

This didn't happen in the movie, and therefore isn't "canon." Are you talking about the novelization? Even if the latter is the source, it makes no sense based on Spock's statement that he would never divulge his knowledge to influence destiny in the new continuity.

 

[anh165]

In contrast to this, ST:ID seems to be very explicit about Marcus/Khan possessing state-of-the-art 23rd century armaments. The extent to which these have been influenced by information from Spock Prime is unclear, but we do learn Spock has been spilling his guts on various threat issues, among these the existence and coordinates of the Botany Bay...

Just focusing on the Vengeance, it was a ship by order of Section 31 purely to fight/dispatch enemies, no facility for diplomacy or exploration.

This alone gives the ship builders much more freedom to construct a formidable combat ship compared to the Enterprise.

Then you have the superior intellect of Khan who had a hand with conceptualising advanced defensive technologies aswell as being able to work out warp related problems that inhibit greater warp speeds that normal human intellects could not previously resolve.

 

[Timo]

This didn't happen in the movie, and therefore isn't "canon."

Ah, in that case I was misinformed.... Still haven't seen the movie.

If Spock didn't tell Starfleet, how did they find Khan? Supposedly nobody goes to that part of space any more, and the Botany Bay isn't visible at a distance...

Spock's statement that he would never divulge his knowledge to influence destiny in the new continuity

...An obvious and blatant lie, considering he divulged plenty of his knowledge to this explicit end in the first nuMovie!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[bullethead]

If Spock didn't tell Starfleet, how did they find Khan? Supposedly nobody goes to that part of space any more, and the Botany Bay isn't visible at a distance...

Section 31 got Starfleet (I think) to start looking all over the place for anything that could help them get an edge over the Klingons. A ship stumbled on the Botany Bay and that's how we got STiD.

 

[Timo]

It sounds more than a bit unlikely that Starfleet would lack an edge over the Klingons if it has enough ships to spare that one of them would "stumble" onto Khan...

And how would that ship know that Khan was worth anything? The Botany Bay is just a run-of-the-mill derelict; even if ships of that type weren't supposed to be capable of transporting people from star to star, TOS showed such a ship in interstellar space hauling ore in "The Ultimate Computer", suggesting most skippers wouldn't blink at the sight of one.

It might be a bit more plausible that S31 would send a dozen Fox Mulders into the archives, looking for "paranormal" gamechangers, and one of them would patch together the story of Khan plus a few educated guesses of where his mythical ship might be found...

But olSpock could save them that trouble, as he seemed quite interested in giving a personal edge to nuKirk, and warning him about all the early 2260s threats would be a prudent way of doing that.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

It sounds more than a bit unlikely that Starfleet would lack an edge over the Klingons if it has enough ships to spare that one of them would "stumble" onto Khan...

That doesn't mean they wouldn't still seek one, especially with the preemptive militaristic mindset Admiral Marcus represents.

Which sort of begs a fairly interesting question: assuming his present disposition isn't also a consequence of the loss of the Kelvin -- and I don't see how it would be -- then what the hell was Marcus like in the Prime Universe? My suspicion is that the likes of Admiral Cartwright and Colonel West were probably among his students after he retired; I'd even go so far as to say that the Klingon-Federation War that was eventually spoiled by Organian interference might have been Marcus' doing in the first place, that the FEDERATION actually started that war and it was his involvement in initiating the hostilities that lead Carol Marcus to leave Starfleet and look for civilian work.

And how would that ship know that Khan was worth anything?

The same way Kirk knew: when the commanding officer finally figured out who Khan really was. The only difference in this case is the CO of that ship was a (more paranoid than usual) Section 31 affiliate and accordingly didn't give Khan unrestricted access to the ship's library computer.

 

[Timo]

Hmm... The timeline would allow for Carol to have joined Starfleet here in a move that never took place in the Prime timeline - so the issue of her retiring in disgust wouldn't need to arise.

Apart from that, Daddy Marcus would probably just be one in a long line of hardliner Admirals in both universes; he just had greater means available in the nuMovies, thanks either to intel gathered from the Nero incident or to bloated budgets created in the aftermath of the Nero incident. If anything, the nuStarfleet might be "softer" than the Prime one, which is why Pike is so worried and eager to enlist hotheads like Kirk.

The same way Kirk knew: when the commanding officer finally figured out who Khan really was. The only difference in this case is the CO of that ship was a (more paranoid than usual) Section 31 affiliate and accordingly didn't give Khan unrestricted access to the ship's library computer.

Yup, that's how it would work after they boarded the sleeper ship. But why would they board it? From a distance, it looks like an automated ore carrier, and there are no lifesigns (sez McCoy). There's the distress beacon, but why would that attract a S31 operative? Another ancient distress signal didn't attract Pike in "The Cage" when he had a much less pressing competing mission.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Yup, that's how it would work after they boarded the sleeper ship. But why would they board it?

Why did Kirk?

 

[Timo]

Because Kirk apparently had orders to loiter with intent, to meddle whenever possible, and to satisfy idle curiosity; I'm worried that the putative S31-commandeered vessel would be more focused on finding things to make them strong. No stopping at ancient distress signals, exploring weird holes in space, undertaking transfers of mysterious passengers and so forth.

However, S31 might be smarter than that, realizing that some ancient distress signals, weird holes in space and mysterious passengers offer potential for powerful alliances with superentities, for weaponization, etc. After all, if Kirk didn't do that work in the nuUniverse, some other skipper probably still did, and the Marcus cabal would have read the logs.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[B.J.]

I'm worried that the putative S31-commandeered vessel would be more focused on finding things to make them strong.

When you say it like that, you make S31 sound like the Pakled!

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Because Kirk apparently had orders to loiter with intent, to meddle whenever possible, and to satisfy idle curiosity

Really? Those were Kirks orders?

Or is this just another worthy submission to the Timo hall of fame?

I'm worried that the putative S31-commandeered vessel would be more focused on finding things to make them strong.

Because surely they would have looked at their sensor scans, noted the lack of a prominent "Ask me about my weapons of mass destruction" bumper sticker and decided to move on.

 

[Timo]

I'd certainly think so. The skies must be full of uninteresting derelicts, and Khan's ride would be among the sorriest. Nothing would indicate anything of worth aboard; why should Admiral Marcus' men stop and investigate?

Really? Those were Kirks orders?

Apparent from many episodes of TOS. As far as space explorers go, he's much like Doctor Who or Spaceman Spiff, having adventures for the sake of having adventures - there's no clear logic to him e.g. trying to stop one asteroid out of thousands in "Paradise Syndrome" from hitting a planet in the middle of nowhere, other than some sort of perverse curiosity to see if it can be done.

Curiosity like this would greatly benefit the UFP as long as their Starfleet can afford the time and effort spent - somewhere way down the line. It's difficult to see how it could benefit S31 in its narrower-scope quest to strengthen the defenses of the UFP, though.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I'd certainly think so. The skies must be full of uninteresting derelicts, and Khan's ride would be among the sorriest. Nothing would indicate anything of worth aboard; why should Admiral Marcus' men stop and investigate?

Because that's what Starfleet does when they find derelict ships in odd places. It's one of the things that gets them into trouble more often than anything else.

It's difficult to see how it could benefit S31 in its narrower-scope quest to strengthen the defenses of the UFP, though.

Sectopm 31 is made up of like-minded Starfleet officers who otherwise have their regular assignments like everyone else. Their exploration missions are no different than any other starship, they're just a lot more interested in results that have tactical value than other commanders might be.

Really? Those were Kirks orders?

Apparent from many episodes of TOS. As far as space explorers go, he's much like Doctor Who or Spaceman Spiff, having adventures for the sake of having adventures - there's no clear logic to him e.g. trying to stop one asteroid out of thousands in "Paradise Syndrome" from hitting a planet in the middle of nowhere, other than some sort of perverse curiosity to see if it can be done.

A month ago you were describing Kirk as "a military man who unquestioningly fights for a single philosophy and mercilessly stomps down all others." Now you think he's a "spaceman spiff, having adventures for the sake of having adventures" motivated by "perverse curiosity."

To which I am forced to ask: were you high when you posted this?

 

[Timo]

Hmh? You seem awfully uptight about our TOS hero and his supposed honor. Why the deadly serious attitude?

The thing about Kirk is that he is not a modern hero. He is a cluster of cliches from half a century back, relying on morals deriving from the preceding centuries. Positing morals and attitudes on this caricature is like shooting fish in a barrel, and sometimes great fun.

Sectopm 31 is made up of like-minded Starfleet officers who otherwise have their regular assignments like everyone else. Their exploration missions are no different than any other starship, they're just a lot more interested in results that have tactical value than other commanders might be.

It appears that S31 in ST:ID is a somewhat more "open" organization than in DS9, then. Fair enough. This does mean that the Starfleet of the movie isn't much different from the Starfleet of TOS, as its policies bring a starship to the same spatial backwater to meet Khan.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Hmh? You seem awfully uptight about our TOS hero and his supposed honor. Why the deadly serious attitude?

I have been diagnosed with a severe allergy to bullshit. The symptoms include a disturbingly low tolerance for people who intentionally say things that are obviously false or nonsensical just to make a rhetorical point.

The thing about Kirk is that he is not a modern hero. He is a cluster of cliches from half a century back, relying on morals deriving from the preceding centuries. Positing morals and attitudes on this caricature is like shooting fish in a barrel

Unless you are prepared to posit morals and attitudes that genuinely reflect the characters as depicted, I'm going to have to request that you cut the bullshit.

 

[Timo]

Oh, that's trivial. Kirk is not a real person, he's a collection of people depicted by non-likeminded writers. Any and all morals are present there for that reason - 78 episodes is plenty enough for that.

As for personal ailments, I tend to find myself disgusted by people who not only mistake TOS for a progressive and liberal show, but argue that the ultraconservative values displayed therein define progressive and liberal in any context. Ridiculing the open militarism of the show is a healthy antidote to that, at least for my half of the problem.

Finally got to see the movie, BTW. And yes, it does appear as if there's a S31 agent or sympathizer aboard every Starfleet ship there, making it quite plausible that these would stumble onto Khan eventually.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Jim17]

The shields do not steer weapons fire away from the ship, they exist solely to block weapons fire in all forms. The Vengeance has weapons that seem to have homing ability, maybe the phasers are using some kind of positive energy that is attracted to ship hulls or energy signatures. After Big V nails the Enterprise out of warp we see it blast Enteprise again but with straight phaser bolts instead of curling bolts. You have to remember that this version of Trek has absolutely no technical aspect so we're never going to know exactly why these weapons do what they do. The drone came out of the ship's side, both sides have a row of rectangular and circular hatches which can be seen on the Hot Wheels replica and briefly after the special torpedoes blow. I think the rail-gun torpedo launchers are on the belly somewhere since Marcus said aft torpedo launchers, it would make little since for them to be on the saucer if they are "aft" weapons and it showed a second one deploying adjacent to the original shot.

 

[Timo]

Might be a warp field diverts weapons fire where a shield does not...

As for the phrase "aft photon torpedoes", it can be taken to mean "target them with our photon torpedoes - point them aft", especially as we are dealing with a turret that can apparently turn in a wide arc.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kemaiku]

The main "gatling" phasers that fired from around the deflector dish, doing the most damage, seem to be ordinary if much more highly powered versions of the Enterprises own pulse phaser system.

 

[Killerprise]

Might be a warp field diverts weapons fire where a shield does not...

As for the phrase "aft photon torpedoes", it can be taken to mean "target them with our photon torpedoes - point them aft", especially as we are dealing with a turret that can apparently turn in a wide arc.

Timo Saloniemi

The Vengeance's phasers were arcing while the Enterprise sat there after Khan killed Marcus. I think they were arcing just for show.