Ah I see you what you mean. Lol remember when Superman became the crimefighter Gangbuster after killing the Pocket Universe Kryptonians? God the 80's were a strange time for comics.
MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion
- Thread starter Agent Richard07
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Ah I see you what you mean. Lol remember when Superman became the crimefighter Gangbuster after killing the Pocket Universe Kryptonians? God the 80's were a strange time for comics.
I don't begrudge your opinion of the movie, though I disagree, but this surprises me. Can you elaborate?
Well other than the standard superhero movie damsel in distress set prices which are, I suppose, to be expected with Superman (although how many times can Lois fall off things in two hours, seriously?!), the most noticeable thing that came to mind was that cringeworthy bit with the female Captain at the end. Ugh. That would have looked out of place ten years ago and left a sour taste in my mouth.
No female character added anything of value to the plot and mostly served to get in the way or get threatened - I can't think of one thing Lois did, for example, which actually advanced the plot or was useful other than as a walking memo of a man, Jor El, as all her detective stuff early on came to nothing plot wise as clark handed himself in straight away anyway. And Martha's role was largely wailing and getting in trouble.
Any of the people fighting for humanity, including Superman, would have been a "memo" for Jor-El, since he was the only one with knowledge about Krypton to impart to them. That still doesn't diminish the courage of Lois, without any powers, taking on Zod's henchmen on the ship in a firefight and saving Kal-El, passing on the details of how to send Zod and the terraforming machine back into the Phantom Zone, and going on the plane on its suicide run toward the terraformer because she had knowledge of Kryptonian technology.
That her detective skills "came to nothing" (I disagree) was by her own choice since she chose not to publish Superman's identity after learning his motives for remaining hidden. That doesn't diminish the hard work and skill she put into finding him, which by the way exceeded the government itself. Nor does it change how tenacious she was in pursuing a story; getting a court order to be allowed to go on a top secret mission to view a possible alien artifact/ship. Also, she was shown to be a person of great integrity by sitting on the story instead of publishing, no matter who might be hurt by it.
So the damsel in distress charge doesn't really make much sense to me. Can it really be called a damsel in distress when the things that are putting you in peril are all done by choice and include climbing into a crevasse and boarding an alien ship by yourself, getting into a firefight with aliens, and going on a kamikaze run into the blasted out center of a city on a cargo plane with an alien ship aboard that you intend to use to create a singularity?
Plus, Lois never gets starry-eyed over Superman. She more admires him for his selflessness, ethics, and dedication, and never throws herself at him. It's a very gradual, very low-key relationship that is forming between them built on mutual respect and admiration.
Martha Kent was the one who taught Clark to focus his senses and hone his gifts into a finely tuned instrument, and was his rock and his calming influence when he had sensory overload. She was as important to his development as his father was. Plus, I don't recall her "wailing" except at the death of her husband, which seems like it would be an appropriate time. When her house got knocked down on top of her she just brushed it off and told Clark that she was "fine."
What character on the ground, male or female, wasn't running for their lives or cowering in fear in the final battle, and how would that not be a normal response to the mass destruction going on around them? The female Daily Planet assistant (Jenny) was trapped, but so were thousands of other people, including the man and his family who Zod were going to vaporize.
Zod's second in command Faora neither got in the way or was threatened, because she was doing the threatening. Lara-El launched Kal-El's escape craft into space in defiance of Zod as he held her husband hostage, a complete reversal of the damsel in distress scenario. The female Kryptonian council leader told Zod to piss off before she got blasted.
Now the captain saying Superman was "kind of hot" was the only thing I could think of when you mentioned the movie being sexist, but still, I really don't see how a woman finding a demigod who just saved the planet attractive is demeaning to women in any way. The guy would be considered "hot" even if he weren't able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. At least they relegated the women finding Superman dreamy to a minor character and not Lois Lane this time, preferring to keep her attraction more subtle and mature. And even then, it was just an offhand comment by the captain; it's not like she was swooning and collapsing at a Beatles concert or anything.
Anyway, even though I disagree, I appreciate you taking the time to explain your position, and I hope you don't feel like I'm coming down on your opinion harshly or anything. Thanks for replying.
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Wasn't the first Gulf War because of a lone foetus in a single jar?
I'm awaiting the fan edit where they splice in images of Felicia Day in her "The Guild" Codex outfit, or actually have a tiny CGI Felicia running about the movie screaming "No Zod! No! You will never catch me!" or "Hold me tighter Russell, hold me tighter down there!"
1. Zod was right. The Council brought on the Apocalypse. They mined the core, and Krypton had a month to live. They probably knew it, but wanted to avoid panic, if only that numb nuts Jor-El would just shut up and get with the program. Seriously "Avoiding a public panic" that was a frakking Drinking game for the Dennis Haysbert Administration on 24. THEY FAILED KRYPTON. Maybe you don't kill them, but there's no fucking way they should still be in power. Shouldn't the General of the Armed forces, the absolute Commander of all the military have no military opposition if he had the time to plan an orderly change of power? You know that is, if the planet wasn't a month from blowing up and he didn't have time to plan an orderly change of power? At least Zod was right until Jor-El starts wailing on about Eugenics and who the General plans on cancelling undesirable ill preforming bloodlines... Where the fuck did that come from? I think a very serious discussion about the future of Krypton was cut from the script at some point before everything was solidified. Personally we all remember 2012 with the arks and Deep Impact with the under ground colony... Or Hitch-Hikers Guide to the galaxy with the telephone sanitizers? THERE WAS A PLAN... Only Zod and Jor-El were probably not invited because they're both reactionary assholes.
2. Zod's people took blood samples. THEY HAD THE CODEX! (Ditto for Into Darkness and the 70 torpedoes full of augmented traits as medicinal as what was running about free range.)
3. Zod adapted to Earth in hours. It took Clark years and years worth of training from his parents because he's possibly retarded? Clark Kent on Smallville was definitely retarded and that's why he couldn't fly even though every other Kryptonian could fly after having spent MINUTES on Earth. So that "my parents taught me" speech was bullshit.
4. What the fuck is wrong with Amy's diction? Every time she said "Perry" it sounded like "Harry". I seriously thought they gave the Editor in Chief of the Daily Planet a new name because they were too much a pack of punk pussies to award an African American the surname of "White". Meanwhile why was Perry always screaming out to see if "Jenny" was all right? Are they ####ing? That's a bit of an age difference there? And she's an employee!
5. Guardian? Reeeeeeeeeealy. Why call him Guardian, but given him the wrong civilian name? Fuck you.
I'm awaiting the fan edit where they splice in images of Felicia Day in her "The Guild" Codex outfit, or actually have a tiny CGI Felicia running about the movie screaming "No Zod! No! You will never catch me!" or "Hold me tighter Russell, hold me tighter down there!"
1. Zod was right. The Council brought on the Apocalypse. They mined the core, and Krypton had a month to live. They probably knew it, but wanted to avoid panic, if only that numb nuts Jor-El would just shut up and get with the program. Seriously "Avoiding a public panic" that was a frakking Drinking game for the Dennis Haysbert Administration on 24. THEY FAILED KRYPTON. Maybe you don't kill them, but there's no fucking way they should still be in power. Shouldn't the General of the Armed forces, the absolute Commander of all the military have no military opposition if he had the time to plan an orderly change of power? You know that is, if the planet wasn't a month from blowing up and he didn't have time to plan an orderly change of power? At least Zod was right until Jor-El starts wailing on about Eugenics and who the General plans on cancelling undesirable ill preforming bloodlines... Where the fuck did that come from? I think a very serious discussion about the future of Krypton was cut from the script at some point before everything was solidified. Personally we all remember 2012 with the arks and Deep Impact with the under ground colony... Or Hitch-Hikers Guide to the galaxy with the telephone sanitizers? THERE WAS A PLAN... Only Zod and Jor-El were probably not invited because they're both reactionary assholes.
2. Zod's people took blood samples. THEY HAD THE CODEX! (Ditto for Into Darkness and the 70 torpedoes full of augmented traits as medicinal as what was running about free range.)
3. Zod adapted to Earth in hours. It took Clark years and years worth of training from his parents because he's possibly retarded? Clark Kent on Smallville was definitely retarded and that's why he couldn't fly even though every other Kryptonian could fly after having spent MINUTES on Earth. So that "my parents taught me" speech was bullshit.
4. What the fuck is wrong with Amy's diction? Every time she said "Perry" it sounded like "Harry". I seriously thought they gave the Editor in Chief of the Daily Planet a new name because they were too much a pack of punk pussies to award an African American the surname of "White". Meanwhile why was Perry always screaming out to see if "Jenny" was all right? Are they ####ing? That's a bit of an age difference there? And she's an employee!
5. Guardian? Reeeeeeeeeealy. Why call him Guardian, but given him the wrong civilian name? Fuck you.
Good movie, great explosive moments, huge music and speed, some brilliant fx but massively flawed. It didn't feel like Superman but instead and mix cut and paste of other movies. Starts out a bit too Suckerpunch or Starwars style with a planet of space ships and those flying dinosaurs, and wasn't sure about the corrupt control freak councilors and dictators having the civil war on the planet, it seemed a little forced. I enjoyed Crowe and Michael Shannon. the action was fast and frantic but maybe it could have been wrote better, it didn't feel like Krypton and how many times do we have to rewatch the origins story anyways?!?!? I've been spoiled by correct Superman stories. I've watched the JLU toon, read a few comics and know Reeve so I know what works and what doesn't. most cartoon and comic fans know this toon and they know the correct Superman. I think Lois and Superman should have had more time together, that's what the Donner films did correct Zod was a minor back story in Superman-I, Lex and Lois are the main story in Superman I and when II finally comes out we see the fugitives from Krypton arrive. There were moments in the movie that seemed UN-heroic to me, by beating Zod's people he not only killed Zod but was aborting a whole planet of unborn babies, letting Pa Kent suicide himself in the tornado....I don't know what kind of advice Kent was giving him at times. He seemed a little un-heroic and the fight with Zod...it seems every time Superman would punch someone innocent townspeople would feel the impact and fire of the battle or the city slickers and office workers would watch the world around them fall apart. It just felt that sometimes Superman was putting minimum effort into protecting the people, every time he punches Zod he causes another 911 WTC style collapse. I loved the fx but the final fight was both thrilling, disturbing and tiresome, and endless sequences of WTC 911 imploding buildings. A good effort but not Superman material and a far cry from the real Superman which was more upbeat, more humor and that classic theme, the John Williams musical score. It is not really Superman but more a flying version of Conan the barbarian from space, it is "C" material
Actually, Guy's pretty on-target. Cyborg Superman worked with Mongul, who was looking to get revenge on Superman for deposing him from Warworld. The whole plan was to turn Earth into another Warworld for Cyborg Superman and Mongul. If Superman had never exiled himself to space, he might not have run into Mongul and Warworld. Mongul would never have lost Warworld, hence not needing to turn Earth into a new Warworld, so no Coast City destruction.
Furthermore, the solar flare which affected one space shuttle containing Hank Henshaw and his crew (including his wife) was what turned Hank into a cyborg (who would later return as Cyborg Superman). This flare was caused when Superman threw the Eradicator into the sun. The flare lead to an accident (reminiscent of the Fantastic Four's origin), which lead to the deaths of his crew, including his wife, which gave him a mad on for Superman. He jumped into Superman's rocket and headed for space, where he met Mongul.
So, in other words, Guy's correct. Without killing Zod, Superman would not have felt the need to exile himself off Earth. He would not have run into Mongul when he did, which not only lead to him fighting, shaming, and getting Mongul kicked off of Warworld, which he previously ruled. In addition, it was during this time when he met the Cleric, who had the Eradicator, which Superman eventually threw into the sun, creating the flare which in turn created Cyborg Superman.
That not only removes Cyborg Superman from continuity, it also removes Mongul's need for vengeance and a desire to rebuild Warworld.
I just think he never even tried. I don't think it would occur to anyone - alien or not - that they could fly.
I gave the movie an A-. It's not without its flaws (the gratuitous destruction makes me worry a bit about Snyder's penchance for style over substance) but I enjoyed it overall. I even liked parts of Zimmer's score and how the sparse instrumentation and percussion helps build up the setting. Bring on the sequel, whether or not it involves another member or 2 of the JL!
Except the numerous times he himself flew, including when he woke up floating in the pilot episode, or met Krytponians who could fly.
The thing that needs to be taken, and people forget, is that Superman was devastated when he (actively) killed. He broke down, yelled and wept. He didn't shrug it off it DID impact him. I think that should be taken into consideration.
This isn't like in Batman Begins where Batman tells Ra's, "I won't kill you but I don't have to save you." and just leaves him to die in a train crash without so much as a second thought (Batman who DOES have a well established code of not killing.) Superman killed and it effected him we SEE that. He doesn't shrug it off and he had little other choice. I mean what COULD be done with Zod if he lived?
Batman killed a man who could've simply been captured and imprisoned. Batman. A man who (in comics) once saved the Joker's life when he was mortally wounded and needed to get to the hospital.
I've no problem with Superman killing in this movie because of how it was handled, it wasn't shrugged off.
Absolutely. You could totally see him struggling to find another way to stop Zod from frying innocent people and only when he saw no way out did he resort to killing him, and as you pointed out, it really tore him up.
What that scene makes clear is that the instant Zod breaks Clark's hold on him a lot more people will die immediately.
IIRC it was implied that Clark couldn't fly because he was still letting his human side/ties to Earth ground him. It's sort of like flying in Never Never Land you need to center yourself and find a happy thought. Clark wasn't able to achieve this until the end when he has to muster up everything he had to save Earth.
Superman/Clark is a script puppet in the killing scene, which is General Zod's suicide by cop. Even as I watched it, it was obvious that it was just tacked on because Nolan/Snyder think that sort of thing is fun. It didn't bother me much because basically I wasn't taking it seriously (in a getting into the story sense.) I was taken out of the story the moment Zod reappeared as if by magic.
I didn't find Superman killing entertaining myself, so I readily concede that those who weren't distanced at that point could find the movie as a whole to fail. Rating a story without taking into account the ending is pretty much a professional TV critic prerogative.
The Kents knew the damn dog could be saved, which explains why they were unrealistically concerned to make the effort. The real plot shortcoming is, as somebody noted upthread, the notion that an underpass is a tornado shelter.
That said, Martha Kent had no guilt for urging Clark to save the dog, for not telling Clark to save her husband or for not affirming the decision to Clark afterward. In short, she basically did not function as a human being. This is typically Nolan of the past. But I believe an essential aspect of criticism is to acknowledge the positive as well. Lois Lane was a real woman character. Having at least one is a great improvement on Nolan's previous work!
I didn't find Superman killing entertaining myself, so I readily concede that those who weren't distanced at that point could find the movie as a whole to fail. Rating a story without taking into account the ending is pretty much a professional TV critic prerogative.
The Kents knew the damn dog could be saved, which explains why they were unrealistically concerned to make the effort. The real plot shortcoming is, as somebody noted upthread, the notion that an underpass is a tornado shelter.
That said, Martha Kent had no guilt for urging Clark to save the dog, for not telling Clark to save her husband or for not affirming the decision to Clark afterward. In short, she basically did not function as a human being. This is typically Nolan of the past. But I believe an essential aspect of criticism is to acknowledge the positive as well. Lois Lane was a real woman character. Having at least one is a great improvement on Nolan's previous work!
