Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

[Pauln6]

Despite being way smarter and more efficient than me a lot of them lack the confidence to go for promotion.

Women are just like men. Some are smart, some aren't. Some are confident, some aren't. Some are assholes, some aren't.

You tell my wife she needs a man to fight her battles for her and she'll punch you in the mouth.

Would she reject my support if I agreed with her position though? She may not need me to fight her battles for her but if there is a battle to be fought isn't more support better?

Ask your wife if she thinks that actresses should get less work than actors because the jobs are not made available for women. I'd be interested to hear her perspective, although
every man and woman for him/herself was the worst aspect of Thatcherism in the UK. I can't bring myself to subscribe to that philosophy. It isn't very Star Trek.

I still think lobbying is the way to go based on the evidence I've seen so far.

 

[BillJ]

Ask your wife if she thinks that actresses should get less work than actors because the jobs are not made available for women.

She's buying tickets to the movies that you are complaining about. So obviously she is okay with it, because its entertainment.

 

[Pauln6]

Ask your wife if she thinks that actresses should get less work than actors because the jobs are not made available for women.

She's buying tickets to the movies that you are complaining about. So obviously she is okay with it, because its entertainment.

Context is key. Ask the question and see what she says.

Most of the women I know don't even think about it at all but when asked the question they agree that actresses should get more roles. If your wife doesn't feel that way, I'd be very interested to know her reasons.

 

[BillJ]

Ask your wife if she thinks that actresses should get less work than actors because the jobs are not made available for women.

She's buying tickets to the movies that you are complaining about. So obviously she is okay with it, because its entertainment.

Context is key. Ask the question and see what she says.

No it's not. Because you're implying that she is purchasing a product that she knows nothing about because she's a girl. Shouldn't you be letting that old prejudice go?

 

[BillJ]

Huh...

Another girl that needs a man to fight her battles for her:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...icial-sarah-thomas-getting-closer-to-the-nfl/

If Thomas earns an NFL job through the ordinary channels, that would be something to celebrate. But Dean Blandino, the NFL’s vice president of officiating, is making clear that the NFL will hire Thomas only if she’s the best person for the job, not to make a statement. The NFL has been evaluating Thomas as a potential official for a few years now.

 

[Pauln6]

She's buying tickets to the movies that you are complaining about. So obviously she is okay with it, because its entertainment.

Context is key. Ask the question and see what she says.

No it's not. Because you're implying that she is purchasing a product that she knows nothing about because she's a girl. Shouldn't you be letting that old prejudice go?

I've never met your wife so I don't know what she'll say. I can only tell you what I've found when I've asked the question.

Ask the question and see what she says.

 

[BillJ]

I just text her (she's at work).

But you're likely not going to like her answer. She's a "guy" girl.

 

[Pauln6]

I just text her (she's at work).

But you're likely not going to like her answer. She's a "guy" girl.

Lol - not every girl will agree with my perspective and not every man will agree with yours but as I say, I'd be interested to see what she says either way.

And context IS key. The way in which you phrased the question could well affect the way in which she answers. I'm a lawyer, remember, I know this to be very true - lol.

I have to sleep now though. I've spent far too much time on this thread! But I will check in to see her response tomorrow!

 

[BillJ]

I have to sleep now though. I've spent far too much time on this thread! But I will check in to see her response tomorrow!

A good debate is always fun.

 

[Commishsleer]

My 14 year old girl refuses to see STID as she doesn't like science fiction. Yet 'Hunger Games' is her favourite movie.
This is one of the very few movies that has a female 'hero'.

 

[BillJ]

My 14 year old girl refuses to see STID as she doesn't like science fiction. Yet 'Hunger Games' is her favourite movie.
This is one of the very few movies that has a female 'hero'.

And it's great that she's speaking with her money (well your money ).

Which is what I've been trying to get at all along. I don't know what's important to women (I barely understand them and I've been married twenty years ) and it's not for me to decide what is important. Especially in this day where women's economic and political power continues to grow. I simply think we're at a point where women will use their power to decide what's acceptable to them.

 

[Lance]

KIRK: Let me ask you something, I think we all know the answer to. The Bechdel Test itself is a cheat, isn't it? You programmed it to be unwinnable.

ALLISON BECHDEL: Your argument precludes the possibility of a no-win scenario.

KIRK: I don't believe in no-win scenarios.

 

[BillJ]

KIRK: Let me ask you something, I think we all know the answer to. The Bechdel Test itself is a cheat, isn't it? You programmed it to be unwinnable.
ALLISON BECHDEL: Your argument precludes the possibility of a no-win scenario.
KIRK: I don't believe in no-win scenarios.

I think it lost all validity when "Two Girls and a Cup" passes.

 

[BillJ]

Me: "Do you care that there are less women in movies than men?"

My Wife: "Not really."

 

[Harvey]

...one movie passing or not passing the Bechdel Test isn't significant at all. Taking the passing or failing of the test as a verdict on the movie's stand on feminism is missing the point of the test.

There may be good reasons for a movie to fail the test (e.g. it plays in an environment that's almost exclusively male like the army before women were allowed to serve). In this case it's the fact that the TOS main characters are all male with the exception of Uhura. I bet TOS doesn't pass the Bechdel Test, either (at least not the version where the dialogue between the two women has to be longer than a couple of words).

A feminist movie might fail the Bechdel Test, e.g. one showing a pioneering woman in a male-dominated field, while movies or TV shows might pass the test that aren't very feminist, e.g. teenage girls talking about make-up and shopping.

The point of the Bechdel Test is that like 80% of Hollywood's annual output doesn't pass it which shows quite well how women are generally portrayed in the movies, namely as accesories to the male characters.

The inventor of the test explained all this when she invented the test so it's annoying that people still use failing the Bechdel Test (or not passing it quickly enough in the case of a TV show) as a way to denounce said movie or TV show as sexist or not very progressive.

Going back a few pages, but I think this post bears repeating.

(Also, it's easier to quote then generate the same thought myself. What can I say except that I'm a bit lazy?)

 

[robau]

Is it right that women are denied work because of the prejudice of the writers?

Yes. Writers should have that freedom.

 

[Clancy_s]

Ask your wife if she thinks that actresses should get less work than actors because the jobs are not made available for women.

Qualified yes from me (female, medical scientist). Qualified because it's not ideal but this isn't an ideal world and this is something the actresses should have known about going in to their job.

I agree that the creative team should be able to cast as they think appropriate; this movie is in line with previous Star Trek so if it bothered me I would have skipped seeing it. If it bothered me alot I would have skipped it and found someone relevant to tell why I skipped it.

As it is I find the issue trivial enough that I hadn't thought of it 'til I saw this thread.

 

[Pauln6]

Ask your wife if she thinks that actresses should get less work than actors because the jobs are not made available for women.

Qualified yes from me (female, medical scientist). Qualified because it's not ideal but this isn't an ideal world and this is something the actresses should have known about going in to their job.

I agree that the creative team should be able to cast as they think appropriate; this movie is in line with previous Star Trek so if it bothered me I would have skipped seeing it. If it bothered me alot I would have skipped it and found someone relevant to tell why I skipped it.

As it is I find the issue trivial enough that I hadn't thought of it 'til I saw this thread.

I think this typifies most women's approach actually. A qualified yes is probably the right answer I think BUT as I said earlier the qualification isn't quite balanced yet. I don't think writers are deliberately casting less women because of a creative choice. I'm absolutely convinced that in most cases they aren't even aware that they're doing it because they create one character at a time and their unconscious default setting is male.

The average war film is going to be male heavy. Others will have a plot that intentionally favours one gender, like 'Dead Poet's Society'. There is one scene in Eddie Murphy's 'Boomerang' which is otherwise a very obvious and silly movie (but then it is Eddie Murphy and he rarely does subtle) where he is walking into the office and they make an intentional dig at Hollywood's laissez faire attitude to casting extras because every employee wandering around in the background is black. It was deliberate but I approve because it was satirical. It's true to say that racial casting has come a long way since the late eighties and early nineties.

If you look at the bridge of the Enterprise, there are a lot of women extras. The creators simply fall down when dealing with 'senior' characters like Starfleet brass, captains and first officers, security staff and, oddly, Vulcan priesthood/leadership, which has never previously been portrayed as male heavy. It's not creative choice IMO it's a failure to think logically or a failure to think at all. Trying to raise awareness of the issue is the right way to go.

 

[Therin of Andor]

The problem is that the Carol Marcus underwear scene served no purpose other than to titillate. She's wearing a push-up bra for God's sake.

Yeah, and while they're at it, turn Ilia's white robe into a maxi skirt and gum boots, and airbrush Shana the drill thrall's silver bikini into a chainmail pullover.

Honestly, what's wrong with Bad Robot replicating an aspect many, many Trek fans used to watch TOS to see?

Vulcan priesthood/leadership, which has never previously been portrayed as male heavy.

Huh?

"Amok Time"'s ceremony was almost all male, plus T'Pau and T'Pring.

TMP had three priests: two male, one female.

At least one of the Vulcans rescued from the Hall of Ancient Thought in ST 2009 was female - possibly T'Pau herself?

 

[Pauln6]

The problem is that the Carol Marcus underwear scene served no purpose other than to titillate. She's wearing a push-up bra for God's sake.

Yeah, and while they're at it, turn Ilia's white robe into a maxi skirt and gum boots, and airbrush Shana the drill thrall's silver bikini into a chainmail pullover.

Honestly, what's wrong with Bad Robot replicating an aspect many, many Trek fans used to watch TOS to see?

Vulcan priesthood/leadership, which has never previously been portrayed as male heavy.

Huh?

"Amok Time"'s ceremony was almost all male, plus T'Pau and T'Pring.

TMP had three priests: two male, one female.

At least one of the Vulcans rescued from the Hall of Ancient Thought in ST 2009 was female - possibly T'Pau herself?

The space bikini is iconic Trek just like the chain mail bikini is iconic Dungeons & Dragons but let's face it they've always been very silly.

Yeah sorry, my loose use of language lets me down sometimes. I realise that Vulcan ceremonies traditionally seemed to segregate the sexes, you get something similar with T'Lar in STIII as well, I think, but they gave us three Vulcan priestess/matriarchs previously and I thought it was a bit of a let down that we didn't get some kind of female spokesman somewhere in there. It is tiresome that we got one matriarch and more male priests in TMP but 2:1 (yet again sigh) is better with the woman is in charge than 2:1 with the man in charge because at least an (older) actress is being given lines. 2:1 is not so terrible where you only have 3 characters. 2:1 if you have thirty characters is more telling I suppose. It would be nice to see 2:1 women for a change though.

I hope the elder was meant to be T'Pau. The next issue of ongoing should confirm this. I will weep if they've carted her off to the rim like Dehner and Chapel.