Starship Size Argument™ thread

[OpenMaw]

Again, why do you think so ? There's precious little evidence in TOS or the movies, but the implication is that the Constitution is a special type of ship.

To my understanding what made her special was the mixture of military and science departments. After all we see strictly science vessels in movies like TSFS, and that doesn't contradict anything in TOS.

So, for me the logical conclusion is that the Enterprise is a special design because she was built to do a little of everything. Capable of performing combat and science duties at long ranges. However, up against a class specially designed to do one or the other, she's likely to fall behind.

 

[Belz...]

Perhaps you're right.

Perhaps if TOS had more time and more money we would've seen other designs, such as dedicated science vessels, battleships and carriers, etc.

...but Trek series that followed TOS never showed us anything from that period that could qualify as bigger and badder than the Constitution, right up until the time of TSFS.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Makes me wish the FJ designs (particularly the Dreadnaught) were more than just shadow-canon.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

They're implied to be very powerful. Nothing and no one suggests MOST powerful.

I said AMONG the most powerful, Eddie.

My comment stands. We don't know for sure what the most powerful ships in the TOS starfleet looked like, nor can we say one way or the other that Enterprise would be among them.

The closest line we have is when Kirk tells Captain Christopher "There are only twelve like her in the fleet."

Yeah, which kinda implies that they are pretty special.

"Pretty special" and "pretty powerful" are not the same thing, nor does either imply "pretty large."

Again, why do you think so ? There's precious little evidence in TOS or the movies, but the implication is that the Constitution is a special type of ship.

And again "big" does not follow from "special," even in Star Trek, where the examples of "specialized" 24th century starships come in a variety of shapes and sizes from the tiny Defiant to the hulking (and, oddly, far more common) Galaxy class.

Besides, I'm reminded that USS Kelvin has been implied to be a pre-Narada design that is itself almost twice the size of the Constitution class in and of itself; in the Prime timeline, it could have easily still been in service by the time Pike visited Talos Four. Considering that the other ships in STXI are based on the same design school, that further implies that all seven of those starships would still have been in service well into TOS and we simply never saw them because Enterprise so rarely visited Earth.

 

[Belz...]

I grant all your points, man. In my opinion, these combine into a probability that the Constitution was the most advanced and most powerful Federation vessel, but in the absence of any definite evidence, however, it remains an unproven opinion.

As for the Kelvin, however, I'd like to remind you that the timeline had already been altered in First Contact. There's no way to know exactly what the consequences of that are, but personally I've always thought it explains the "differences" in Enterprise.

 

[Gonzo]

I grant all your points, man. In my opinion, these combine into a probability that the Constitution was the most advanced and most powerful Federation vessel, but in the absence of any definite evidence, however, it remains an unproven opinion.

As for the Kelvin, however, I'd like to remind you that the timeline had already been altered in First Contact. There's no way to know exactly what the consequences of that are, but personally I've always thought it explains the "differences" in Enterprise.

It has never been explicitly stated that the events in First Contact actually changed anything even after Cochrane gives the Vulcans a shock at the end of the film, even so it would fit in quite well with the new ship sizes and uprated technology in the new films.

It was suggested years ago that the First Contact film was the trigger for the Mirror Universe alternate reality but I never really bought into that as it didnt flow very well.

There have been so many time incursions that I am amazed the changes in the new films are as "shallow" as they are tbh, same people, same place etc etc.

I think the writers have got the mix of old and new about right.

 

[Belz...]

Indeed. There's no explicit implication that there is a change. It's just my personal theory and interpreration of what we see on the show, and I happen to think it fits very well.

 

[publiusr]

I began warming up to the nuEnterprise thanks to ID. She is earning my respect. When she popped up from her death-dive I felt my heart swell for her in a way it never has for this design before. Damn you JJ!

It felt like this Enterprise had earned her stripes in this film. She earned being labeled 'NCC-1701'.

I agree

Dr. Who introduced the idea of concrete being on a spaceship--which may have inspired JJ and his set look (easier actual locations, I know)

Well, maybe there is something to that:
http://www.npr.org/2013/05/31/187534465/with-chemical-tweaks-cement-becomes-a-semiconductor

Now to me, the idea of ships being skyscrapers in space is something I hadn't thought of before, with concrete and framing being used then towed--less shipyard, and more World Trade Center.

That seems to fit the Babylon 5 ethos more to me. I can see the Omega class more like that.

 

[beamMe]

Dr. Who

OMG! How can you write that?!!

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Not that the size debate wasn't confusing enough already, but the Revel plastic model kit for the Into Darkness enterprise is apparently at 1:500 scale and measures 58 centimeters long.

That would make the Enterprise exactly 294 meters long, slightly smaller than the TOS version.

 

[beamMe]

Not that the size debate wasn't confusing enough already, but the Revel plastic model kit for the Into Darkness enterprise is apparently at 1:500 scale and measures 58 centimeters long.

That would make the Enterprise exactly 294 meters long, slightly smaller than the TOS version.

It also says on the box: Made in the EU - that's not canon either

 

[F. King Daniel]

It looks like they just took the USS Kelvin floorplan from the last movie and used it on the Enterprise. But still - it looks *so* cool.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

While we're back on this subject (ship scale), there's a scene in STiD after the Enterprise loses power and emergency lighting kicks in. We clearly see the edge of the saucer is two levels high, because one of them (round hallway) is exposed via hull rupture. So, arguments about 4 levels on the saucer rim are out.

Also, the total number of levels in the saucer can been guesstimated from the "plaza." There are about 8-10 levels, so figure 3-4 above the saucer, and 3-4 below (but that includes the "level" immediately beneath the dome and above the bottom dome, which is basically nothing).

 

[F. King Daniel]

^During the run from the brig to the warp core, I counted 11 decks above Scotty and Kirk, and 9 below.

Perhaps someone else can corroborate?

 

[Gonzo]

^During the run from the brig to the warp core, I counted 11 decks above Scotty and Kirk, and 9 below.

Perhaps someone else can corroborate?

Saw it again over the weekend, sounds about right as there was a lot above and below.

P.S WarpfactorZ

There are 4 levels on the saucer rim its just that some floors don't have windows, we were shown this in some promotional media for the first film when the Enterprise was being built. We could see how big the workmen were in comparison to the ship, if its the scene I think it is the damage covers 2 decks not one.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

While we're back on this subject (ship scale), there's a scene in STiD after the Enterprise loses power and emergency lighting kicks in. We clearly see the edge of the saucer is two levels high, because one of them (round hallway) is exposed via hull rupture. So, arguments about 4 levels on the saucer rim are out.

That's cute that you think so, but no. There are at least four, and I believe five full decks in the saucer rim alone, and the scene you're describing (see below) does nothing to dissuade me from that idea.

(click to enlarge)

Also, the total number of levels in the saucer can been guesstimated from the "plaza." There are about 8-10 levels, so figure 3-4 above the saucer, and 3-4 below (but that includes the "level" immediately beneath the dome and above the bottom dome, which is basically nothing).

The images below aren't clear (they're screencaps I found online), but it shows way more than 3-4 decks above and below the level Kirk and Scotty were on. The female crewman Kirk was trying to hold onto fell pretty far.

(click to enlarge)

^During the run from the brig to the warp core, I counted 11 decks above Scotty and Kirk, and 9 below.

Perhaps someone else can corroborate?

I don't know the exact count, but it was much closer to your estimate than to WFZ's. People were falling way down the atrium. Even with the blurry images you can count several more decks than 3-4 above and below the level Kirk and Scotty are on.

 

[Kemaiku]

So is this plaza thing underneath the bridge dome (which I doubt) or that crystal dome between the impulse engines?

Because if its the impulse dome, they'd have the height of the saucer and the full height of the stardrive all the way down, or maybe 20+ decks.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I think it's under the bridge tower dome (which is where I put it in the drawing below), but Kirk and Scotty do run directly from the atrium to engineering, so it may run down the neck from the saucer to the engineering hull. I'm not sure. The dome seemed bigger than the one above the impulse engines though; at least the size of the ship's bridge. Plus, there's an undercut beneath the impulse dome that would make it impossible to have a vertical shaft that wide running all the way down the neck.

 

[JarodRussell]

In Trek 2009, Kirk ran from sickbay to engineering to bridge without ever taking stairs or turbolifts. And he ran, because McCoy had to catch up with him, which wouldn't have been the case had they taken trips with the turbolift.

I guess it just makes no sense.

 

[Kemaiku]

The only thing that put me off thinking it was the bridge dome one was the close up of it in the 2009 movie where it looked like machinary inside.

Then again that could easily have been refitted with the bridge repairs after the first movie.