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When did voyager go wrong?

I had the time to watch a couple of episodes, and geez, they are really wasting screen time with extremely painful to watch Seven of Nine explores humanity shit. It's not the idea that she explores humanity, it's how the writers let her do it. Holy shit.

Seven sometimes seems to me like a child in a very dysfunctional family who has to raise herself. And I think she does a pretty good job with the resources available to her. A starship stranded on the other side of the galaxy with a mentally ill captain and a holographic doctor as your mentors is just not the best scenario for becoming human.
 
Again, I think that if they'd given the show an actual plot beyond "Lost ship" there'd be more for the writers to work with.

And the second crew should have been Romulans, instead of the Maquis. Genuine enemies.
 
It would have been nice if the show didn't end when the ship returned to the Alpha Quadrant. Maybe if they had 6 or 7 episodes (or even a full season) of encountering Cardassians, Romulans, Andorians, etc., that would be a welcome surprise. A friend of mine years ago said that this was his major beef with the show: you knew that Voyager was never going to return to the Alpha Quadrant until the end of the show, so all of the efforts they were making to get there would ultimately fail, until the very end.
 
It would have been nice if the show didn't end when the ship returned to the Alpha Quadrant. Maybe if they had 6 or 7 episodes (or even a full season) of encountering Cardassians, Romulans, Andorians, etc., that would be a welcome surprise. A friend of mine years ago said that this was his major beef with the show: you knew that Voyager was never going to return to the Alpha Quadrant until the end of the show, so all of the efforts they were making to get there would ultimately fail, until the very end.

Exactly, it's Gilligan Syndrome.

If they'd given them a plot that could be accomplished WITHOUT ending the show, then there's something more interesting.
 
What do you mean?

She was there since the pilot.

They wouldn't just "invent" new characters half way through the show, and then pretend that they had been cleaning conduits out of camera shot for the past three years.

What you are suggesting is cheap and reprehensible!
 
Ashes to Ashes was not a Kim episode. It was about the reality of death. Kim was just there to dramatize that the best you can hope for in the end is to say goodbye. And Mezoti showed up at the end because the young always continue to live their lives after others die. No doubt they would have preferred Paris to have been the lover but he was taken by Torres. The only unattached male of the right species was Kim.

And I strongly suspect they wrote a new dead character because they didn't want to call back a glorified extra. The thing is, it doesn't matter if Ballard was previously obscure because in truth many lives go unnoticed and unremarked and only after they are gone do we (sometimes) notice we've lost something.

The key scene in Ashes to Ashes is when Janeway cannot justify her decision to the dead. This is true for all military commanders whose soldiers die following their orders. The implicit lesson? It's left for you to draw.

A fair amount of Voyager is this kind of story. The insistence on some sort of survivalist epic crossed with a right-wing critique of humanitarianism is just irrelevant to what was on screen. It's like people keep watching the insides of their foreheads.
 
I figured out deductively recently that Ashes to Ashes was probably a rejected "Return of Kes" episode that got tabled at some point in the process after they started thinking about bring Lien back.

If so, then this story was supposed to be about Neelix and Kes having one last booty call.
 
Where Voyager went wrong:

B'Elanna Torres is Meg Griffin;

Paris is Eddie Haskell;

Chakotay is Iron Eyes Cody;

Ensign Kim is Opie;

Neelix is Alf;

Janeway is Mommie Dearest;

Tuvox is Token Black;

The only interesting characters were the Doctor and Seven.
 
I've read most of this thread, and found some of the discussions quite interesting. I neither hate nor love Voyager unlike some, I think some people need to realise that there where a lot of things the producers were not allowed to do back then.

The thing is, VOY did have the best premise of the Trek shows, however in order to do it justice they would have needed to approach every aspect of the show very differently. They wanted 26 standalone stories per season, and that alone killed 90% of the potential, given this restriction they did a good job. For what it's worth here are my random thoughts;

*As external conflicts would have always been difficult to develop, internal drama should have been a priority. I personally would have had a massive amount of Voyager personnel killed in the pilot, meaning most of the qualified and elite crew are gone. I'd probably have done something like this for the crew;
- Janeway- 1st officer of Voyager, takes command after death of Captain. From a science background, not as much leadership experience as other Trek captains, takes failure really badly and doesn't have absolute confidence in herself, utterly determined.
- Maquis Captain- Grudgingly accepts 1st officer role despite having more experience than Janeway. Early in the show considers mutiny, possibly even attempts it, realises that he doesn't have the crew to staff Voyager and as such is forced to comply
- Cardassian Crewmember- A high ranking military officer captured by the Maquis and held aboard the Maquis ship. Beaten and interrogated on a daily basis for information prior to the Maquis being stranded in the DQ. Initially put in the brig aboard Voy for his own protection. Voyager's Ops Officer was killed in the pilot, Kim has been manning the post but doesn't have the experience to do it and the ship suffers as a result, in the absence of other qualified personnel Janeway allows the Cardassian to take the position, and tutor Kim, over the complete objection of all serving Maquis. Having spent years coordinating Cardassian personnel he does an outstanding job but is a source of conflict.
-EMH- Similar but make his desire for equality a bit more subtle and no mobile emitter. If the crew consider abandoning ship it means abandoning the Dr.
- Kes- Stick with the concept and don't get rid of her! Have her very immature early on, show her desire for a normal life through the early seasons with Voyager crew disturbed a 3 year old is hitting on them etc. Have the show finish with her as an old woman, having lived her entire life parallel to this journey.
- No Neelix, or at least a massively different Neelix.
-As for other characters, either make them more interesting or change them.
It goes without saying the Maquis would have no desire to put on Starfleet uniforms. If that moment comes I'd expect something special to lead up to it

*As for damage/support/repairs etc- Obviously neither proposed extreme is ideal. What they had was ridiculous, the ship may have well been in the AQ. Having no repairs would mean the ship wouldn't be able to survive anything or go anywhere. I think if the hull is badly breached and there is visible damage, they need some kind of explanation for it's repair (use of a friendly alien shipyard for example). It would be great too if there could be some sign this had happened, different coloured panels on some sections for example. Internally, if the bridge is trashed in an episode, it would be better to have it be trashed in the next episode, looking slightly better each week as the debris is cleared and the walls are repainted etc. Even if this all happens in the background in 1 episode, it is better than magically regenerating. Have certain corridors be wrecked and fire damaged for an episode or 2 after big battle, the crew doesn't need to discuss it, just be a nice visual for when they are walking through discussing something else.

*Rationing and low resources should have led to some interesting moral debates. The possibilities here are endless.

*Holodeck shouldn't have been used at all

*Given that Voyager was alone and without the backing of the Federation, their treatment from hostiles should have been far more brutal. Even if an enemy has an advantage over Picard's Enterprise, they don't beam aboard and start executing his crew because they don't want to be at war with the Federation. There were opportunities for some intense scenes. I also hated the way Voyager/Janeway had to "win" at the end of each episode, it comes across like kids TV sometimes. Have Voyager threatened, attacked and narrowly escape with their tail between their legs, watching these proud strong characters have to deal with that is far more interesting to me than Janeway "taking out the garbage"

*On a related note, no Janeway/Borg Queen conflict. It literally became a Saturday morning cartoon. Surviving the journey, and trying to keep some cohesion within such a diverse crew would be far more compelling. Since external threats could never be that well developed (given that Voyager doesn't stop), then the antagonists should be looked at like The Walking Dead's zombies, they cause the problems that create the drama but are never going to be developed.

*Given the show was set to run 7 seasons, a change of pace from time to time might be good. For example if Voyager suffers massive engine damage, have them land on a planet for repairs, but due to the amount of damage that story could run 4 or 5 episodes, just think it through in advance and make the planet a particularly fascinating one and the story that's told there be something that really holds the audience interest.


WOW what I would have said. If this had been doe it would have been the BEST trek!
 
Voyager had a few flaws but it was nonetheless a great series.
Strengths:
-characters were in a new predicament (stranded)
-Janeway: very awesome captain (2nd only to the Sisko)
-just plain "Star Trek" goodness and wholesomeness
-I like how they moved to distict portions of the Delta quadrant throughout the series
-eventually they dropped the borg children off

Flaws
-the bad episodes were REEEEEEEEEALLY bad
-Overuse of 7, elimination of Kes, return of Kes and (shudder) the borg children
-(continued shudder) the borg children
 
I don't see what the problem is with Borg kids. We saw Borg babies in the very first Borg episode.
 
Someone brought up Lindsay Ballard a few posts ago, and that is an excellent example of where VOY messed up. Rather than have a long line of recurring characters, who would have pretty steady work for seven years as they popped up from time-to-time (and didn't do a Carey), interacted with the mains, who we got to know and care about over time, they just created her and expected us to give a damn about her from the word 'go'.

Had Ballard been introduced in S1 (maybe even the second or third episode) as an Academy friend of Kim's, who he was attracted to but felt guilty about due to Libby back home, who came on the occasional away team or what not of the next few years before she was killed off, her death and its impact on Kim would have been something they could have used.

The lack of continuity really screwed up VOY, I think. Given their situation, you could have had just about every crewmember named and given a duty station, to be brought out and used when needed, but instead all they did was give us more of the Seven and Doctor Show.

Such a shame really.
 
Voyager had a few flaws but it was nonetheless a great series.
Strengths:
-characters were in a new predicament (stranded)
-Janeway: very awesome captain (2nd only to the Sisko)
-just plain "Star Trek" goodness and wholesomeness
-I like how they moved to distict portions of the Delta quadrant throughout the series
-eventually they dropped the borg children off

Flaws
-the bad episodes were REEEEEEEEEALLY bad
-Overuse of 7, elimination of Kes, return of Kes and (shudder) the borg children
-(continued shudder) the borg children

Mostly agree, except on Janeway and Sisko. Not saying I didn't like her, just saying my favs are Kirk and Picard.

I have to agree with you on too much emphasis on Seven and Doctor. Liked both, but became too lopsided by season 7, which is my least favorite season, overall. I liked seeing Seven and/or Doctor-centric episodes, but not almost every week.

Also agree Kes should not have been booted off completely. I think there was room for Kes to be a recurring character, sort of like a "caretaker in training" where we get to see how she has progressed since leaving voyager on each visit...sort of like Q. And I would have liked to see Kes having something to do with Voyager getting past the Borg and getting home. It was sad to see no Kes at all in the finale.


The lack of continuity really screwed up VOY, I think. Given their situation, you could have had just about every crewmember named and given a duty station, to be brought out and used when needed, but instead all they did was give us more of the Seven and Doctor Show.

Such a shame really.
There was continuity and there were references to past events, but if you mean lack long story arcs and lack of serial feel, I agree. Too many episodes were too self contained, IMHO. THat is where DS9 succeeded and where VOY could have been better.

I think VOY had great characters overall, yes I even think unpopular ones like Chakotay and Kim were alright, just that other than Janeway, Doctor, and Seven, the characters were often underutilized or could have been written better.
 
Someone brought up Lindsay Ballard a few posts ago, and that is an excellent example of where VOY messed up. Rather than have a long line of recurring characters, who would have pretty steady work for seven years as they popped up from time-to-time (and didn't do a Carey), interacted with the mains, who we got to know and care about over time, they just created her and expected us to give a damn about her from the word 'go'.

I don't see the real problem with this. I mean, TOS only had three main characters and was always pulling new crew members out of nowhere and expected us to care about them. No one complained then.
 
Someone brought up Lindsay Ballard a few posts ago, and that is an excellent example of where VOY messed up. Rather than have a long line of recurring characters, who would have pretty steady work for seven years as they popped up from time-to-time (and didn't do a Carey), interacted with the mains, who we got to know and care about over time, they just created her and expected us to give a damn about her from the word 'go'.

I don't see the real problem with this. I mean, TOS only had three main characters and was always pulling new crew members out of nowhere and expected us to care about them. No one complained then.

TOS was a show from the 60s, VOY was a show from the 90s and by the time the 90s came along, things like continuity and story arcs became more important, shows like X-Files and Babylon 5 made focus on contiunty and story arcs popular, so having Voyager ignore that makes it seem like it was behind the times in the 90s. Voyager seemed like an 80s TV show in the 90s.
 
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