Offiical XBox (3) Launch Thread

[MacLeod]

Well if MS handles transferring a game to a new owner, it is possible the devloper will get a slice of that pie.

As I said before and others, having somesort of DRM on the X1 could mean developers favour it and MS is able to get more exclusives because the devlopers know that people either have to buy the game new, or if they buy a used copy via somesort of Xbox Live Marketplace the developer still gets a share of the sale.

It'll be interesting to see how the X1 does in it's two key markets the UK and the US where it has sold more than other consoles.

 

[TheGodBen]

Very interesting!! I don't see what's so objectionable about this arrangement other than the 24 hour mandatory log in.

This system would still prevent the ability to borrow games from friends, which is actually a bigger deal for me than the used game issue. I typically buy games new and normally don't trade them in, but borrowing games from friends has been a part of my gaming experience since the days of the Sega Master System. This generation alone I borrowed Mass Effect, Assassin's Creed, Just Cause, and Portal (The Orange Box, technically) and I enjoyed them so much that I bought them for myself and the sequels.

I went along with the restrictions on PC games because piracy was a legitimate problem on that platform, but extending them to consoles just seems like a short-sighted cash-grab.

 

[Kelthaz]

This 12 minute video does a very good job summing up all the issues related to the Xbox One. Very comprehensive.

http://www.gametrailers.com/videos/m4yj8z/annoyed-gamer-xbox-one-reaction

 

[MacLeod]

Very interesting!! I don't see what's so objectionable about this arrangement other than the 24 hour mandatory log in.

This system would still prevent the ability to borrow games from friends, which is actually a bigger deal for me than the used game issue. I typically buy games new and normally don't trade them in, but borrowing games from friends has been a part of my gaming experience since the days of the Sega Master System. This generation alone I borrowed Mass Effect, Assassin's Creed, Just Cause, and Portal (The Orange Box, technically) and I enjoyed them so much that I bought them for myself and the sequels.

I went along with the restrictions on PC games because piracy was a legitimate problem on that platform, but extending them to consoles just seems like a short-sighted cash-grab.

So if piracy is becomming a problem on consoles, and it was ok to implement measures to combat piracy on PC's, what's the difference between doing it on a PC and a console?

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Very interesting!! I don't see what's so objectionable about this arrangement other than the 24 hour mandatory log in.

This system would still prevent the ability to borrow games from friends, which is actually a bigger deal for me than the used game issue. I typically buy games new and normally don't trade them in, but borrowing games from friends has been a part of my gaming experience since the days of the Sega Master System. This generation alone I borrowed Mass Effect, Assassin's Creed, Just Cause, and Portal (The Orange Box, technically) and I enjoyed them so much that I bought them for myself and the sequels.

I went along with the restrictions on PC games because piracy was a legitimate problem on that platform, but extending them to consoles just seems like a short-sighted cash-grab.

So if piracy is becomming a problem on consoles, and it was ok to implement measures to combat piracy on PC's, what's the difference between doing it on a PC and a console?

It's warranted on neither, in my opinion.

 

[MacLeod]

Well if people didn't illegally copy games, we wouldn' need it would we? It tends to be the small minority who spoil things for everyone else.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Well if people didn't illegally copy games, we wouldn' need it would we? It tends to be the small minority who spoil things for everyone else.

You'll always have pirates. It doesn't really matter whether there's DRM or not for those who want to pirate. They should be trying to make it easier for people who want to pay for games to be able to do so. Why spend millions, hundreds of millions on coming up with DRM technologies when people will crack them in no time?

Valve have got it right, piracy is a service issue not a security issue.

 

[MacLeod]

SO because people will crack them, they shouldn't try.

That's like saying people will break into peoples home but the police shouldn't try to stop them.

 

[Kelthaz]

Well if people didn't illegally copy games, we wouldn' need it would we? It tends to be the small minority who spoil things for everyone else.

Bullshit. Video game sales are higher than ever. Yes, piracy is a legitimate problem, but the idea that publishers need draconian DRM in order to survive is absolutely not true. It's pure, short-term greed. Nothing more.

The real problem that publishers face is the ludicrous budgets of AAA games, but that's a discussion for another day.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

SO because people will crack them, they shouldn't try.

That's like saying people will break into peoples home but the police shouldn't try to stop them.

No, more along the lines of they shouldn't beat guests as they come in to your B&B because there's burglaries been reported in the area.

 

[FPAlpha]

Well.. it will come down to this.

Which company has the bigger balls and which blinks first?

Sony went ahead of MS and confirmed that the PS4 will not require a pernanent online connection which put MS under a huge spotlight. As i have said already i firmly believe that MS planned an always on connection feature for the XBO but had to frantically change course when the shitstorm hit. They said it won't need a permanent connection but first reports already talk about it needing at least a connection once every 24h which makes it a sort of "light" version.

So there will be this distinction at first.. now it will be about used games. Very big issue with gamers who either like to swap games or trade them in at Ebay or somewhere else to use the money and in many cases buy newer games. The general customer who maybe starts up the box once a week or so if the mood strikes is totally unaware that he will not be able to lend or rent a game.. how will they react?

On the technical side both consoles will be similar enough from what i can gather so it will be features, cost and game support that will decide this race (if there will even be a clear winner).

MS wants the XBO to be a media center that also plays games.. i know nobody who's exited about all the additional features it supposedly will have (at least for US customers.. it depends how these TV features and such will translate to the rest of the world) so there's stuff with the XBO that you will actually not need or want driving the price up.

PS4 seems to concentrate more on the gaming front though the PS Eye will be included together with the new controller that allows for some motion detection (though it doesn't seem to be as sophisticated as Kinect 2).

Someone said eariler that publishers push for all these DRM features and i agree but the bucket also stops with the customers. Without them neither the publisher nor the console manufacturer will earn anything.
Sometimes companies take it too far (Sony has already learned that lesson) and have to back off.. it might take a while for lost income to become a game changer but it has happened before.

So who will have the bigger balls and goes against the other company? If both had agreed on always on the customer would have been screwed because there would have been no alternative (and a hardcore gamer buying a Wii U? Please...). Who will have the guts to stick to their plan and risk this entire generation's race?

From the very few facts available i am firmly leaning in the PS4 camp right now because some features of the XBO are a huge no for me.

- backdoor "light" version of an always on feature
- the microphone of the XBO Kinect 2 being always on (has to be if you want to control the XBO via voice command but i'll be damned if i trust any company with my privacy)
- price may become an issue (they way it looks now XBO will be more expensive than the PS4 because of Kinect 2 and other features unless MS heavily subsidizes the console)


The following weeks and months will be filled with more news.. i don't expect much hard data from E3 (this will mostly be about games and the shiny graphics the new consoles will be able to present) but late summer will be interesting when release dates and prices will be announced.

 

[TheGodBen]

So if piracy is becomming a problem on consoles, and it was ok to implement measures to combat piracy on PC's, what's the difference between doing it on a PC and a console?

If piracy was as big a problem on consoles as it was on PC then I could see a moral argument being made in favour of this form of DRM, but even then I don't think it would be reasonable. Piracy on consoles involves messing with the firmware, and if you bring your modded console online you risk your account being banned. It's not a perfect system, but it would be far more reasonable for MS to devote their resources to tracking modded consoles and hitting pirates directly than pursuing their current plans, which involve blanket restrictions on legitimate customers. Since piracy on PC is much more widespread, much easier to perform, and much harder to fight directly, I can understand why broader restrictions are enforced. (But even on PC, I refuse to accept DRM that goes too far, such as SimCity's always-online requirement.)

But I think most of us know that MS isn't pursuing this policy to go after pirates, but because of the used games market. Publishers have been bitching about used game sales on consoles for the last few years, with some even going to ridiculous lengths and claiming that it's destroying the industry. I can see no moral argument to support DRM aimed at used games because there is nothing illegal or immoral about them. I can understand why publishers are annoyed by companies like Gamestop that make money from the practice, but that's no excuse to screw over their customers.

 

[MacLeod]

SO because people will crack them, they shouldn't try.

That's like saying people will break into peoples home but the police shouldn't try to stop them.

No, more along the lines of they shouldn't beat guests as they come in to your B&B because there's burglaries been reported in the area.

No it isn't, piracy is a crime. It is only natural developers will want to implement measures to try and combat a loss to their revenue. Now we as a consumer might not always like them. And yes some people will crack them. But just because crime does and will happen doesn't mean that it should stop being fought.

You are a games developer, one console is trying to help you combat this by somesort of DRM measure. The same console is changing the way second hand games are handled so you as a developer will earn a share of the re-sale of a game.

Either with a first-time buyer or a re-sale you earn money. Sounds like a win to me. So the X1 might be more attractive to devlop for, do exclusives for.

Now of course some of the featues might put off some people from buying the console, the question is how big is that perentage? <1%, 1%, 10% etc...

We now accept DRM measures on PC games, and I suspect there where the same complaints when it was brought in for PC's as there is now about consoles. That isn't to say the measures they are bringing in are the right measures, would many of us object to having to enter a code like we do now on most PC games?

The primary issue should be around the 24hr log on issue. Perhaps the 24hr log on issue is to do with checking to make sure no one else is using your copy of the game? Though I think if you don't have the internet the console should work without the check, and perhaps only check if you've set the console up so that it is connected to the internet.

 

[MacLeod]

Found this re: PS4 and patent for blocking used games

http://uk.gamespot.com/news/sony-patents-tech-to-block-used-games-6401992

Now of ocurse as the article says it doesn't mean the patent will be accept or even used, but Sony are looking along the same lines as MS.

 

[AlphaMan]

It seems to me that game developers have been trying to get out of the idea of games as products and move it more towards a service model. That's what MMO, DLC and Multiplayer has been all about. I imagine that in the next gen, these games will come with a EULA that declares that when we buy a game, we are merely purchasing a license to play and not the actual product itself. This will be the rationale for them cutting themselves into the used game market. SIM CITY actually went as far as to state that you bought the product "as is" and this is why they legally didn't have to give anyone refunds when that piece of shit didn't work for weeks.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

SO because people will crack them, they shouldn't try.

That's like saying people will break into peoples home but the police shouldn't try to stop them.

No, more along the lines of they shouldn't beat guests as they come in to your B&B because there's burglaries been reported in the area.

No it isn't, piracy is a crime. It is only natural developers will want to implement measures to try and combat a loss to their revenue. Now we as a consumer might not always like them. And yes some people will crack them. But just because crime does and will happen doesn't mean that it should stop being fought.

You are a games developer, one console is trying to help you combat this by somesort of DRM measure. The same console is changing the way second hand games are handled so you as a developer will earn a share of the re-sale of a game.

Either with a first-time buyer or a re-sale you earn money. Sounds like a win to me. So the X1 might be more attractive to devlop for, do exclusives for.

Now of course some of the featues might put off some people from buying the console, the question is how big is that perentage? <1%, 1%, 10% etc...

We now accept DRM measures on PC games, and I suspect there where the same complaints when it was brought in for PC's as there is now about consoles. That isn't to say the measures they are bringing in are the right measures, would many of us object to having to enter a code like we do now on most PC games?

The primary issue should be around the 24hr log on issue. Perhaps the 24hr log on issue is to do with checking to make sure no one else is using your copy of the game? Though I think if you don't have the internet the console should work without the check, and perhaps only check if you've set the console up so that it is connected to the internet.

Yes, piracy is a crime they want to stop, but they're hitting legitimate customers to try and stop it. You're hurting the people who pay their way to get the people who don't. Back to what Valve said. They were launching Steam in Russia and were told there was no point, piracy is so rife in Russia no one will buy games from you. Russia is now their second biggest market because they run a good service with good prices and good support. Yes, piracy still happens but now games publishers are getting more money from Russia because they Valve treated their customers with respect.

Video piracy from Torrents has apparently taken a huge drop in every country a Netflix (like) service has emerged because of affordable, legal, easy access to lots of video, so again piracy is held back by giving people the choice to use a decent service.

They already have DRM measures on consoles. The firmware updates add extra security. And piracy for consoles isn't a new thing, there were copies for the NES, it's a big part of what killed the Dreamcast, it was so easy to pirate for it sold very few games, the Xbox 360 has been hacked for years. MS started banning people and then they came up with a hack that was harder to detect.

The choice here isn't let them continue and lose revenue or do something and make more money, there are hardcore pirates who are people who spend very little on buying in the first place and will continue to pirate and hack everything they can. There's no extra money to be made there and limiting their access really means nothing to them.

There are people who pirate because they can't afford what they want to play so they might go off and buy secondhand, which you're now effectively making more expensive, so not helpful to these people and may drive them away from the platform and lose what little money they were able to spend.

And there are people who pirate to try before they buy or because they don't have access legitimately. Sony have made a good choice here in allowing time limited access to full games via the cloud. Giving them a decent service where they can try before they buy and get access to games from all over the world at the same time may lead to more revenue from these people but this isn't about locking them in to an always on, totally locked system.

Harming the experience of the people who pay is not a good system. They realised that with the anti-piracy ads on DVD, they're now skipable and say thanks instead of calling you scum. Music industry has received a bump in sales since switching to MP3 from DRM'd systems because people who buy legitimately can find them easily and aren't restricted in their use. And streaming services mean they can find what they want legitimately.

Basically treating your paying customers like scum alienates people and pushes them away. Fight piracy by trying to take on the chipmakers, the forums that share how to do it, the websites and whole industry behind pirating things, and by realising that there are gaps in the market that piracy is filling and finding a way to fill that gap not by attacking those who want to buy your products.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Rather then add to that wall of text post I'll say my biggest problems are really the fact that borrowing from friends won't be allowed. It has lead to me buying games in the past or meant I've been able to play a few games that came out at the same time when I could only afford to buy one and vice versa for friends.

The 24 hour log in thing. I've had one or two occasions when my internet has gone down for a few days, I've know people who's connections have gone down for weeks.

Trading in will either mean less money for trade ins or higher costs on secondhand games. As neither are great as it is that means gaming is a more expensive hobby. I rarely buy secondhand games but I do sell so I can afford to buy new games. If game prices go up, as they undoubtedly will, I will be able to afford to play fewer games, combined with my first reason in this post you can see the problem.

Also 500gb isn't a lot of hard drive space when you have mandatory 20-50gb installs for games, saves which seem to be getting bigger and bigger, downloads, music/film/apps/updates etc to install too.

 

[MacLeod]

I agree about the HD, if it's going to install to the HD. I would have thought a 2TB HD would be needed. As you say with DLC, save files, if they want it to be a media centre/function perhaps as some sort of DVR that sapce will soon disappear,

 

[Rincewiend]

 

[TheGodBen]

Found this re: PS4 and patent for blocking used games

http://uk.gamespot.com/news/sony-patents-tech-to-block-used-games-6401992

Now of ocurse as the article says it doesn't mean the patent will be accept or even used, but Sony are looking along the same lines as MS.

According to this Eurogamer article, that patent wasn't intended for use with PS4.

Interestingly, I also spoke to a Sony source elsewhere at the event this evening who told me that the anti used-game patent discovered last month was actually nothing to do with PlayStation 4 at all.

That's by no means definitive, we have no idea who that source is, but it gives me hope. Everything else Sony said to the press in the wake of the PS4 reveal suggests that they're going to allow publishers to decide what to do about used games, not the uniform restriction that MS have decided upon.

The reason why I'm suspicious of Sony is that EA publicly dropped their online pass program just a week before the XBO reveal, and they signalled that they're scaling back their plans for the Wii U around the same time. Maybe that's all coincidental, but it does leave the impression that Sony and MS have decided to jump off the cliff together.