Lindelof On Eve Scene (minor spoilers, hysteria, hyperbole)

[BillJ]

Re: Lindelof On Eve Scene

Yeah, it was a cheap way of getting some skin and foreshadowing a possible liason. The problem I have with it - NuBSG showed members of the opposite sex changing together without any hint of voyeurism because, you know what, they're professionals. The way the scene was handled said quite a bit about the juvenile sexist attitudes of the writers and might explain why they've included so few female characters in the last two movies compared to males.

Or, you know, Kirk's really attracted to her and it made him blush.

Only in Star Trek do humans get in trouble for being human.

 

[Belz...]

Re: Lindelof On Eve Scene

Should we dress her up like the Michelin Man?

With all those white curves ? What the hell are you thinking !!

 

[Amaris]

Re: Lindelof On Eve Scene

Yeah, it was a cheap way of getting some skin and foreshadowing a possible liason. The problem I have with it - NuBSG showed members of the opposite sex changing together without any hint of voyeurism because, you know what, they're professionals. The way the scene was handled said quite a bit about the juvenile sexist attitudes of the writers and might explain why they've included so few female characters in the last two movies compared to males.

Or, you know, Kirk's really attracted to her and it made him blush.

Only in Star Trek do humans get in trouble for being human.

I ascribe my successful life to living a highly ethical life, free of more base emotions, exuding calm professionalism, and keeping my powerful intellect focused squarely on the mission at hand.

Now that should get me some ass.

 

[HaventGotALife]

Re: Lindelof On Eve Scene

My point is that this needless scene is perpetuating a body image that is not obtainable for most women.

Perpetuating ? Seriously, assuming that the scene wasn't needless, which it was, would you have prefered a cellulite-ridden body ? Of course not.

There there is scientific research that exposure to images like this influence people as young as 4 years old.

If it can encourage kids to take care of their bodies rather than become fat and out of shape, I'm all for it. Where's that research, by the way ?

I started with scientific research, put it in the larger context, and why Star Trek should be ashamed of itself.

Or maybe it's just fiction and you're over-analysing and projecting your values onto it.

Oh, as the mother of a 4-year old little girl, anyone showing their young daughter this movie has bigger issues than body image.

I watched violent Japanese anime at 5. Didn't seem to scar me.

Since you refuse to recognize it, here is the quote:

Body image is a complicated aspect of the self-concept that concerns an individual's perceptions and feelings about their body and physical appearance (Cash & Pruzinsky, 2002). Females of all ages seem to be particularly vulnerable to disturbance in this area; body dissatisfaction in women is a well-documented phenomenon in mental health literature. Researchers have called female's concerns with their physical appearance "normative discontent;" implying that body dissatisfaction affects almost all women at some level (Striegel-Moore & Franko, 2002, p. 183; Tiggemann & Slater, 2004). Females have been found to experience dissatisfaction with physical appearance at a much higher rate than males (Striegel-Moore & Franko, 2002), and women of all ages and sizes display body image disturbance. It appears that body dissatisfaction is more closely linked to appearance-related cognitions than physical reality. People are at higher risk to display disturbed body image if they hold dysfunctional beliefs and cognitions about their physical appearance, regardless of body mass (Butters & Cash, 1987).

Concern over weight and appearance related issues often surfaces early in females' development, and continues throughout the lifespan. The importance of physical appearance is emphasized and reinforced early in most girls' development; studies have found that nearly half of females ages 6-8 have stated that they want to be slimmer (Striegel-Moore & Franko, 2002). Body dissatisfaction and disordered eating patterns have been found to be an especially prevalent issue in adolescent and college females (Schwitzer, Bergholz, Dore, & Salimi, 1998; Stice & Whitenton, 2002). Body image becomes a major issue as females go through puberty; girls in midadolescence frequently report being dissatisfied with weight, fearing further weight gain, and being preoccupied with weight loss (Striegel-Moore & Franko, 2002). Field et al. (1999) found that 20% of 9-year-olds and over 40 % of 14-year-olds reported wanting to lose weight. In addition, most girls who express a desire to be thinner are within the normal weight range for females their age (Striegel-Moore & Franko, 2002).

Numerous studies have verified that one's subjective evaluation of their own appearance can have a powerful impact on a person's development and psychosocial experiences (as cited in Butters & Cash, 1987). Researchers have found that body dissatisfaction is correlated with other forms of psychological impairment. Not surprisingly, disturbed body image is one of the main precursors for disordered eating and dieting in adolescent and young adult girls (Attie & Brooks-Gunn, 1989; Stice & Whitenton, 2002; Striegel-Moore & Schreiber, 2000; Tiggemann & Lynch, 2001). The prominence of dieting and maladaptive eating patterns has become an increasingly prevalent concern in adolescent and young adult populations; research has shown that around two-thirds of adolescent females report dieting at some point. Further, studies have shown that body dissatisfaction surpasses actual body mass as the most powerful risk factor for the development of dieting and disordered eating (Striegel-Moore & Franko, 2002).

It was 6-8, not 4. My bad, but there is the research. It sites the studies if you want to look them up.

 

[T'Bonz]

Re: Lindelof On Eve Scene

Seemed gratuitous to me. Contrast that to Saldana in Trek '09 where the same type of scene did not seem gratuitous.

I'm not keen on the "women are sex objects" attitude, but I have to confess, in the last movie, when Kirk is on top of Gaila and they had underwear on, I rolled my eyes. Not because they were wearing too little, but they were wearing too much given the activity! I know we can't go x-rated but that was unrealistic. It pulled me right out of the movie and made me laugh.

 

[CaptainWacky]

Re: Lindelof On Eve Scene

What he misses is that the Kirk scene was not gratuitous while the Marcus scene was. Kirk was in bed with 2 aliens so we see him undressed. The same way there was no criticism of the Gaila scene. Even when Uhura walks in and gets undressed it's understandable because she just walked into her own dorm room and doesn't expect Kirk to be there.

The Marcus scene on the other hand was just random. She is talking to Kirk to propose a mission. He hasn't even heard the idea yet, let alone approved it. Yet she decides to walk into a shuttle and change clothes in front of Kirk. Once Kirk approves the mission she still had plenty of time to change uniforms while Kirk asks McCoy to join the mission. There was no reason to change uniforms right then and there. No adult would change clothes in that situation.

That's what really makes it gratuitous. The only reason the character even takes the action is for the sake of showing her. In all the other similar scenes the characters actions are at least understandable.

Exactly, the problem isn't underwear scenes, it's underwear scenes with terrible writing.

 

[Cicero]

Re: Lindelof On Eve Scene

I don't think the general body image issue is relevant here. If Google's search results are accurate, Alice Eve is 5'6" (one inch taller than the average female European-American) and about 115lbs. That would place her BMI inside the normal healthy range, if near the lower end.

In short, the scene shows an actor at a normal healthy weight. (Not that her weight is any other person's business.)

That said, I was sick this weekend and haven't actually seen the movie yet, so I have no informed opinion of the quality of the scene one way or another.

 

[Belz...]

Re: Lindelof On Eve Scene

Since you refuse to recognize it, here is the quote:

Asking you to support your claims is not refusing to recognize them.

studies have found that nearly half of females ages 6-8 have stated that they want to be slimmer (Striegel-Moore & Franko, 2002). Body dissatisfaction and disordered eating patterns have been found to be an especially prevalent issue in adolescent and college females (Schwitzer, Bergholz, Dore, & Salimi, 1998; Stice & Whitenton, 2002). Body image becomes a major issue as females go through puberty; girls in midadolescence frequently report being dissatisfied with weight, fearing further weight gain, and being preoccupied with weight loss (Striegel-Moore & Franko, 2002). Field et al. (1999) found that 20% of 9-year-olds and over 40 % of 14-year-olds reported wanting to lose weight. In addition, most girls who express a desire to be thinner are within the normal weight range for females their age (Striegel-Moore & Franko, 2002).

And this is not evidence of much. Was this study in the USA ? Because considering weight problems in the country, I don't doubt that many girls are worried about it. Does it mean that the "perfect girl" image is harmful ? Where's the correlation, to say nothing of the causation ?

 

[Amaris]

Re: Lindelof On Eve Scene

Seemed gratuitous to me. Contrast that to Saldana in Trek '09 where the same type of scene did not seem gratuitous.

I'm not keen on the "women are sex objects" attitude, but I have to confess, in the last movie, when Kirk is on top of Gaila and they had underwear on, I rolled my eyes. Not because they were wearing too little, but they were wearing too much given the activity! I know we can't go x-rated but that was unrealistic. It pulled me right out of the movie and made me laugh.

I completely agree. They should have both been naked.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Re: Lindelof On Eve Scene

They should have both been naked.

QFT

 

[T'Bonz]

Re: Lindelof On Eve Scene

Alice Eve is 5'6" (one inch taller than the average female European-American) and about 115lbs. That would place her BMI inside the normal healthy range, if near the lower end.

Nope. 115 and 5-6 = underweight (18.6 BMI). However, she is only 3 lbs underweight.

What bothers me was an article I did on her, where she ate "mostly spinach" for 3 months to get trim.

Meanwhile, Pine was trying to gain weight.

There is such pressure on women to be gaunt nowadays and some of what I see coming out of Hollywood is troubling in that regard.

I'm on board with being healthy - but underweight as a result of crash diets, Adderal, smoking and cocaine (not counting the Photoshopping of even healthy thin women to make them gaunt too) - the preferred methods of Hollywood - is just as unhealthy as obesity and the pressure to be reed-thin puts tremendous pressure on young girls and makes anyone who doesn't fit the thin image feel like shit.

 

[Amaris]

Re: Lindelof On Eve Scene

Alice Eve is 5'6" (one inch taller than the average female European-American) and about 115lbs. That would place her BMI inside the normal healthy range, if near the lower end.

Nope. 115 and 5-6 = underweight (18.6 BMI). However, she is only 3 lbs underweight.

What bothers me was an article I did on her, where she ate "mostly spinach" for 3 months to get trim.

Meanwhile, Pine was trying to gain weight.

There is such pressure on women to be gaunt nowadays and some of what I see coming out of Hollywood is troubling in that regard.

I'm on board with being healthy - but underweight as a result of crash diets, Adderal, smoking and cocaine (not counting the Photoshopping of even healthy thin women to make them gaunt too) - the preferred methods of Hollywood is just as unhealthy as obesity and the pressure to be reed-thin puts tremendous pressure on young girls and makes anyone who doesn't fit the thin image feel like shit.

I agree with you here.

 

[Belz...]

Re: Lindelof On Eve Scene

There is such pressure on women to be gaunt nowadays and some of what I see coming out of Hollywood is troubling in that regard.

I'm not sure "gaunt" is the right word, though, at least in most of women we tend to see in underwear. They seem to be slim, but healthily so. Women who wear designer clothing for catalogs or fashion shows, however, are almost skeletal. If they had to go bikini, you can bet they'd be pressured to take on some weight, instead.

Personally I lean towards the average or lean, not skinny.

 

[HaventGotALife]

Re: Lindelof On Eve Scene

Since you refuse to recognize it, here is the quote:

Asking you to support your claims is not refusing to recognize them.

studies have found that nearly half of females ages 6-8 have stated that they want to be slimmer (Striegel-Moore & Franko, 2002). Body dissatisfaction and disordered eating patterns have been found to be an especially prevalent issue in adolescent and college females (Schwitzer, Bergholz, Dore, & Salimi, 1998; Stice & Whitenton, 2002). Body image becomes a major issue as females go through puberty; girls in midadolescence frequently report being dissatisfied with weight, fearing further weight gain, and being preoccupied with weight loss (Striegel-Moore & Franko, 2002). Field et al. (1999) found that 20% of 9-year-olds and over 40 % of 14-year-olds reported wanting to lose weight. In addition, most girls who express a desire to be thinner are within the normal weight range for females their age (Striegel-Moore & Franko, 2002).

And this is not evidence of much. Was this study in the USA ? Because considering weight problems in the country, I don't doubt that many girls are worried about it. Does it mean that the "perfect girl" image is harmful ? Where's the correlation, to say nothing of the causation ?

Not that it's important to this conversation, but I cited and quoted information from a link I already submitted twice in this thread. You obviously did not see it (it is before my original post) or you chose to ignore it until I posted a quote.

The questions you have are addressed with the rest of the article. Causation has been linked to exposure of these images. There are several theories as to why this happens. It goes over all three of them.

Would I rather see a cellulite-ridden body, you asked. Well, no, I wouldn't expect that on-screen. That is part of the problem. I wouldn't expect that. And the way these scenes are shot is to emphasize that the person is thin. I am a product of my environment. What appears to be the difference between me and you is that I recognize it and I am taking steps towards trying to see that it doesn't happen to yet another generation. Our current media would kill that image, and the images on here wouldn't be forgiving, I am certain (if it was a cellulite-ridden body). But that three-second clip has ended up in the trailers promoting the film, and also in countless avatars on this site. Why is that? Because she's attractive. So only attractive people can fall in love?

For those that claim it is just Kirk and Carol eventually getting together, let's set-aside that he isn't impressed with her mind, or anything in her personality, but that it's focused on just the sex. Would you have it communicated to you that she was attracted to Kirk, or the other way around, if she was 140 pounds and not 115? Would you think that Kirk would find that attractive? The same thing with the two women that Kirk is in bed with.

Lindelof has admitted this was a mistake. Why are people on here still defending it?

 

[Cicero]

Re: Lindelof On Eve Scene

Alice Eve is 5'6" (one inch taller than the average female European-American) and about 115lbs. That would place her BMI inside the normal healthy range, if near the lower end.

Nope. 115 and 5-6 = underweight (18.6 BMI). However, she is only 3 lbs underweight.

NIH's website gives 18.5 as the lower limit of normal weight. That seems to be the general international standard, so far as I can tell (WHO lists the same threshold).

And this is not evidence of much. Was this study in the USA ? Because considering weight problems in the country, I don't doubt that many girls are worried about it. Does it mean that the "perfect girl" image is harmful ? Where's the correlation, to say nothing of the causation ?

IIRC, there's evidence to suggest that the issue is normative. I recall reading about a study that indicated that playing with overly muscled action figures correlated with the development of body image issues in boys.

 

[Belz...]

Re: Lindelof On Eve Scene

The questions you have are addressed with the rest of the article. Causation has been linked to exposure of these images.

And yet I didn't read that in the quote you provided. Lots of people claim that violence in fiction causes violence in reality. I tend to think it's the other way around. I also think that children are actually more capable to distinguish fiction from reality than a lot of adults.

Would I rather see a cellulite-ridden body, you asked. Well, no, I wouldn't expect that on-screen. That is part of the problem. I wouldn't expect that.

Why is that a "problem" ? You also expect to see cool-looking starships rather than ugly ones, right ?

And the way these scenes are shot is to emphasize that the person is thin.

I think it emphasized that the person is hot.

I am a product of my environment. What appears to be the difference between me and you is that I recognize it

This is getting ridiculous. You think I don't recognise it ? I embrace it.

and I am taking steps towards trying to see that it doesn't happen to yet another generation.

And this is downright fantasy. Humans have been products of their environment for thousands of years, and this isn't likely to change ever.

But that three-second clip has ended up in the trailers promoting the film, and also in countless avatars on this site. Why is that? Because she's attractive.

Yeah, imagine that. People like beauty.

So only attractive people can fall in love?

Complete non sequitur.

For those that claim it is just Kirk and Carol eventually getting together, let's set-aside that he isn't impressed with her mind, or anything in her personality, but that it's focused on just the sex. Would you have it communicated to you that she was attracted to Kirk, or the other way around, if she was 140 pounds and not 115?

I don't care. It's fiction.

 

[Belz...]

Re: Lindelof On Eve Scene

IIRC, there's evidence to suggest that the issue is normative. I recall reading about a study that indicated that playing with overly muscled action figures correlated with the development of body image issues in boys.

Well, here's the problem: people will always be influenced by things they aspire to be like, and business will always try to capitalise on that. That's how humanity rolls.

Is that bad ? I don't think so, as long as we avoid extremes. What, should we avoid making dolls and action figures that have better-than-normal anatomies ? Ban swimsuit issues of Sports Illustrated ? Encourage people to not work out too much ?

I have a better idea: let's educate people so that they are better able to make their own decisions, and LET them make their own decisions, rather than assume that people are vulnerable and need to be protected and sheltered.

 

[HaventGotALife]

Re: Lindelof On Eve Scene

The questions you have are addressed with the rest of the article. Causation has been linked to exposure of these images.

And yet I didn't read that in the quote you provided. Lots of people claim that violence in fiction causes violence in reality. I tend to think it's the other way around. I also think that children are actually more capable to distinguish fiction from reality than a lot of adults.

Would I rather see a cellulite-ridden body, you asked. Well, no, I wouldn't expect that on-screen. That is part of the problem. I wouldn't expect that.

Why is that a "problem" ? You also expect to see cool-looking starships rather than ugly ones, right ?



I think it emphasized that the person is hot.



This is getting ridiculous. You think I don't recognise it ? I embrace it.



And this is downright fantasy. Humans have been products of their environment for thousands of years, and this isn't likely to change ever.



Yeah, imagine that. People like beauty.

So only attractive people can fall in love?

Complete non sequitur.

For those that claim it is just Kirk and Carol eventually getting together, let's set-aside that he isn't impressed with her mind, or anything in her personality, but that it's focused on just the sex. Would you have it communicated to you that she was attracted to Kirk, or the other way around, if she was 140 pounds and not 115?

I don't care. It's fiction.

Pretty Starships? One is an object, the other is a human being. It's not a Non-sequiter. This is a part of the image we are cultivating for people to follow.

 

[Amaris]

Re: Lindelof On Eve Scene

Pretty Starships? One is an object, the other is a human being. It's not a Non-sequiter. This is a part of the image we are cultivating for people to follow.

You have missed his point. When you are watching a Star Trek film, you expect to see certain things. There is nothing wrong with having these expectations, but you can't blame others for not getting what you expected.

Carol Marcus is a young, lovely, highly intelligent scientist. There is a scene in the movie where she is changing, and we catch a glimpse of her in her underwear. Just what were you expecting in that particular moment?

That's why I keep asking you whether she should feel ashamed of her body. She doesn't fit the United States' definition of "normal" body type, so she is used as an object to promote shame. Why?

 

[Belz...]

Re: Lindelof On Eve Scene

Pretty Starships? One is an object, the other is a human being.

It's called an analogy. You'll notice that in order to build an analogy to humans, you'll have to use non-humans.

It's not a Non-sequiter.

Sequitur. Of course it is. It doesn't follow from the sentence that precedes it in any way. And NO ONE has ever said that people that are less attractive can't fall in love. You made that up.

This is a part of the image we are cultivating for people to follow.

You mean, the one we've been cultivating for about 3000 years ? Yeah, that's been devastating to humanity. I mean come on, we've been making art about idealised people for at least that long.