When did the Admiral lose control.. SPOILERS

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Okay this discussion keeps getting buried in the review thread so I'm posting it separately.

When did Admiral Marcus lose control of Khan? I assumed Khan was rogue during the entire film but J. Allen said that the "archive" bombing was ordered by Marcus. Some seem to think the (within hours) second attack on the Starfleet meeting was also ordered by Marcus but I don't agree as this was not a sniper attack but missiles fired into the room and there was no way Admiral Marcus could have guaranteed his own safety. If he had excused himself right before it happened that would have tied him to the attack but he does not. Perhaps he did order it but Khan deliberately comes early so that Marcus will be there and not conveniently out of the room.

Marcus unthaws Khan and decides to use him as a part of his plan to militarize Starfleet via and because of a future war with the Klingons. He embeds Khan in Section 31 where he is known as one of their best agents. Not having a history would be seen as normal in Section 31 so that was a bit of genius. Less genius is giving a man like Khan access to the deepest secrets of the Federation, but perhaps Marcus was fat headed enough to think he would never lose control. His leverage against Khan is Khan's people, 72 frozen folk.

At what point does Khan believe his people are dead? Why does he believe his people are dead? This is tied to when Marcus loses control over him.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Maybe it was all a plan until Khan figured out that they were going to shot his people at him. Marcus might have always planned to have him start a war, but kill him in the process so it never gets back to him.

 

[Amaris]

I still think it's after the attack on the secure facility. I say this because Admiral Marcus calls a session in a secure location, a location explicitly outlined in the Starfleet manual/regulations. I think Marcus had control of Khan all the way up to that point, or at least thought he did.

 

[Awesome Possum]

He was clearly expecting or wanting him to go to Kronos so they would start a war and he was just waiting around for people to show up there.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I still think it's after the attack on the secure facility. I say this because Admiral Marcus calls a session in a secure location, a location explicitly outlined in the Starfleet manual/regulations. I think Marcus had control of Khan all the way up to that point, or at least thought he did.

But there were missiles fired into the room. There is no way Marcus could have guaranteed not being killed.

 

[R. Star]

Probably about the time he woke Khan up from stasis. He may have had an illusion of control, but that's all. Khan's not subordinate material at all, but Marcus was arrogant enough to think he could control an augment.

As to the torpedoes, I could see Marcus moving them to someplace Khan doesn't know about(this would be before he gives them to Kirk) as leverage so Khan can't rescue his comrades or anything. When they're gone missing for a time, and Marcus won't say where they are, Khan starts attacking Section 31 targets.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Probably about the time he woke Khan up from stasis. He may have had an illusion of control, but that's all. Khan's not subordinate material at all, but Marcus was arrogant enough to think he could control an augment.

As to the torpedoes, I could see Marcus moving them to someplace Khan doesn't know about(this would be before he gives them to Kirk) as leverage so Khan can't rescue his comrades or anything. When they're gone missing for a time, and Marcus won't say where they are, Khan starts attacking Section 31 targets.

Khan believed they were dead, iirc.

Why did he believe this? At what point did he stop obeying Marcus in order to keep his people safe?

I agree that it was always an illusion of control, certainly giving Khan access to Section 31 was the action of someone far too sure of himself.

 

[Amaris]

I still think it's after the attack on the secure facility. I say this because Admiral Marcus calls a session in a secure location, a location explicitly outlined in the Starfleet manual/regulations. I think Marcus had control of Khan all the way up to that point, or at least thought he did.

But there were missiles fired into the room. There is no way Marcus could have guaranteed not being killed.

It's just a theory, but I figure Khan was supposed to do some damage, and haul ass for Kronos, but instead, Khan decided the time was right to give a little payback to Marcus as well. See, it makes sense that Khan was to rattle the cage, and haul ass to his preset destination of Kronos (which is where Marcus wanted him to go). See, his destination is still Kronos, where Kirk is to go and toss some torpedoes down the planet's wazoo in an attempt to kill Khan, while the real motive was to start a war with the Klingons, hence why the Enterprise's warp drive blew out. It was sabotaged by Marcus so the Klingons would quickly find their supposed "attackers". The fact that Khan knew this, meant that Marcus had laid out that detail. The plan backfired when Kirk stopped thirsting for revenge long enough to realize that Starfleet wasn't about firing indiscriminately at innocents to catch a killer.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

But WHY does Khan bother going to Kronos when he thinks his people are dead?

 

[Amaris]

But WHY does Khan bother going to Kronos when he thinks his people are dead?

I don't think Khan believes his people are dead. This is confirmed when Kirk tells him how many of the classified torpedoes are on their ship. I remember Khan asking Kirk if he'd do anything for his family, for the people he cared about. So I think Khan believed they were alive, and that Marcus was using this as leverage. The Kronos/torpedo thing was a way to kill Khan and his crew, while starting the war he wanted.

Of course, I may be mixing things up a bit now. It's a day out since I saw the movie, and things are starting to get a bit hazy. That's why last night I was trying to get it all down before I forgot some important detail.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I'm going to see it again tonight so I'll be paying closer attention. Khan had already gone to Kronos, then he found out that Kirk had 72 torpedoes on board.

Also I'm thinking the script must be online somewhere by now?

 

[Amaris]

I can't find it anywhere. Enjoy the movie, and if you can remember the specific events surrounding what happens, let me know, because now I'm getting confused.

 

[M'Sharak]

Also I'm thinking the script must be online somewhere by now?

Shortly after the last movie came out, there was a closed-caption/subtitle transcript which appeared online for a few days before getting yanked. Haven't heard of anything similar yet for this one, but I imagine it's only a matter of time.

 

[beamMe]

But WHY does Khan bother going to Kronos when he thinks his people are dead?

I don't think Khan believes his people are dead. This is confirmed when Kirk tells him how many of the classified torpedoes are on their ship. I remember Khan asking Kirk if he'd do anything for his family, for the people he cared about. So I think Khan believed they were alive, and that Marcus was using this as leverage. The Kronos/torpedo thing was a way to kill Khan and his crew, while starting the war he wanted.

Of course, I may be mixing things up a bit now. It's a day out since I saw the movie, and things are starting to get a bit hazy. That's why last night I was trying to get it all down before I forgot some important detail.

Welcome to the world after seeing STID; it's a pretty straight forward story, but there is so much going on that you get confused thinking about it afterwards.

Khan wasn't under Marcus' control from the start of the film. By that time he already tried hiding his crew in those torpedoes, was discovered and fled.
He thought his crew were dead - killed by Marcus.

Everything Marcus did after the bombing and Khan's attack on the meeting was, as Carol Marcus put it, damage control. He tried to get rid of all the evidence when he put the torpedoes on the Enterprise and set Kirk loose on "Harrison".

As with Khan, Kirk unfortunately didn't function as Marcus planned. So he had to get actively involved and try to get rid of everything by himself.

 

[starburst]

Khan went to Kronos to taunt Marcus, if he survived, into coming after him as he would have known someone would have worked it out.

Marcus wanted a war, Khan believing his people dead wanted to die and the best way to do it is to make sure Starfleet would want him badly enough is to risk war with the Klingons - by destroying Section 31 and killing the top Admirals as well as the commanders of all the ships near Earth he knew they would risk it.

What he didnt count on was Marcus using his people against him. What Marcus didnt count on was the combination of factors of Spock, McCoy and Scotty softening Kirk's blood thirsty attitude. He knew how much Pike meant to Kirk so thought he would carry out his mission and be found by the Klingons before restoring Warp capability.

Marcus knew a war was coming and wanted it, at that moment Khan knew the best way to get revenge was to give Marcus his war (a war without Khan Starfleet could and would likely loose).

The film has two ruthless villains who both work with and against the Enterprise to further their own plans.

So in my mind, and to answer the original question, Marcus never had complete control but thought he did... He lost it all together the moment he sent a sabotaged Enterprise to start a war... he should have left Khan to the Klingons or instead used the Vengeance to get the job done.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

But WHY does Khan bother going to Kronos when he thinks his people are dead?

I don't think Khan believes his people are dead. This is confirmed when Kirk tells him how many of the classified torpedoes are on their ship. I remember Khan asking Kirk if he'd do anything for his family, for the people he cared about. So I think Khan believed they were alive, and that Marcus was using this as leverage. The Kronos/torpedo thing was a way to kill Khan and his crew, while starting the war he wanted.

Of course, I may be mixing things up a bit now. It's a day out since I saw the movie, and things are starting to get a bit hazy. That's why last night I was trying to get it all down before I forgot some important detail.

Welcome to the world after seeing STID; it's a pretty straight forward story, but there is so much going on that you get confused thinking about it afterwards.

Khan wasn't under Marcus' control from the start of the film. By that time he already tried hiding his crew in those torpedoes, was discovered and fled.
He thought his crew were dead - killed by Marcus.

Everything Marcus did after the bombing and Khan's attack on the meeting was, as Carol Marcus put it, damage control. He tried to get rid of all the evidence when he put the torpedoes on the Enterprise and set Kirk loose on "Harrison".

As with Khan, Kirk unfortunately didn't function as Marcus planned. So he had to get actively involved and try to get rid of everything by himself.

I agree with this assessment having just seen the film for again. I don't think Marcus ordered the destruction of Section 31.

One thing I wondered.. when they are in the meeting and Kirk is looking through the images after the bomb and zeroes in on Khan he asks Pike, "what's in the bag?" This is a biggish duffle bag that Khan is pulling out of some rubble (seemingly). So what's in the bag?

 

[beamMe]

I don't think Khan believes his people are dead. This is confirmed when Kirk tells him how many of the classified torpedoes are on their ship. I remember Khan asking Kirk if he'd do anything for his family, for the people he cared about. So I think Khan believed they were alive, and that Marcus was using this as leverage. The Kronos/torpedo thing was a way to kill Khan and his crew, while starting the war he wanted.

Of course, I may be mixing things up a bit now. It's a day out since I saw the movie, and things are starting to get a bit hazy. That's why last night I was trying to get it all down before I forgot some important detail.

Welcome to the world after seeing STID; it's a pretty straight forward story, but there is so much going on that you get confused thinking about it afterwards.

Khan wasn't under Marcus' control from the start of the film. By that time he already tried hiding his crew in those torpedoes, was discovered and fled.
He thought his crew were dead - killed by Marcus.

Everything Marcus did after the bombing and Khan's attack on the meeting was, as Carol Marcus put it, damage control. He tried to get rid of all the evidence when he put the torpedoes on the Enterprise and set Kirk loose on "Harrison".

As with Khan, Kirk unfortunately didn't function as Marcus planned. So he had to get actively involved and try to get rid of everything by himself.

I agree with this assessment having just seen the film for again. I don't think Marcus ordered the destruction of Section 31.

One thing I wondered.. when they are in the meeting and Kirk is looking through the images after the bomb and zeroes in on Khan he asks Pike, "what's in the bag?" This is a biggish duffle bag that Khan is pulling out of some rubble (seemingly). So what's in the bag?

The emergency transwarp transporter.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

That's what I thought. But where was it? In the rubble? It seems as though he's pulling stuff around looking for the bag.

 

[Tiberius Jim]

My question is...when did Marcus decide to use Kirk and the Enterprise to spark this war. How did he know that Kirk would come to him, asking to be reinstated and to go after Harrison? It's not like he had time to devise this plan right there as he's talking to Kirk and Spock. When he gives Kirk the order to "target his coordinates, fire the torpedoes and haul ass" was he already planning to sabotage the Enterprise at that point, or did that come later and he really did intend on Kirk killing Harrison with the torpedoes and coming home?

Definitely need to see it again to sort this stuff out. It seems to convenient for that to have been his plan all along since I don't see how he could have known Kirk would want to go after him.

 

[Amaris]

I think he had everything planned out, he just needed a scapegoat. Kirk happened to be the one to volunteer.