STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

[Pauln6]

I think Carol Marcus was introduced because they need another woman who isn't a nurse or yeoman.
Plus she looks good in bra and knickers.

She did look good!

But FYI - they didn't use the nurse (who was actually a research biologist) or the yeoman (who has been used to good effect as a yeoman/security guard in the comics) or Pike's former first officer, or the leader of the Vulcan people.

She was brought in because of her relationship to Admiral Marcus but I'm glad we have another woman. Two is better than one.

I scratched my head at Spock's surprise at a new science officer. It's a research vessel with a crew of over 400 people and she is a lieutenant. They have more than one science officer of that rank on board (but apparently not more than two engineering officers).

 

[Franklin]

Perhaps not 'bad' but childish. Kirk's promotion was childish in its lack of realism for all the reasons spoken by Pike in this film. Chekov's promotion was childish in its realism. It isn't just about that fact that Chekov has just been placed in charge of about a dozen people who outrank him - it was a hamfisted way of giving him something to do. They could have done something similar without actually making him the chief.

The thing is, there are always explanations.
Given that Scotty was throwing a fit and apparently walks off, maybe Chekov is the first person Kirk sees around in the moment and figures, "What the hell." Could be he expected Scotty to eventually come back after everyone cooled down, too.

The entire "give everyone something to do" thing bothers me, though, because it does lead to contrived situations like this.

Not to make too big a comparison (because of big gaps in their experience), but Miles O'Brien on DS9 wasn't an officer or even Starfleet, but he was chief engineer on the space station.

 

[RAMA]

ST has always played fast and loose with ranks. Again this is not really a big issue to me. Hardly indicative of bad script writing.

Oh it is. Would you buy that were it a film about the Navy? They make a point about how Starfleet is a military organization, and then they ignore it and make it look like that organization has no protocols whatsoever. That's bad.
It reduces the tiny bit of realism that is left in science fiction/space opera and makes everything extremely cartoonish. Same with the incoherent distances, and many other things.

Not really we already accept different ypes of warp drives, stargates, and other conceits to establish scifi universes, most of it is pretty far feteched in the first place, so the distance between warp and transwarp as a concept is negligible.

Nonsense, even in ST09 Starfleet isnt simply a military arm of the federation. Even if it were, every series has had questionable rank structure of some kind. Regardless, its a fictional series and not 100% analogous to the modern navy, its just used as a guide.

RAMA

 

[AvBaur]

What of that Countdown to Darkness comics made it into the film?

The only thing I noticed was a mention of the "Mudd incident." (They're using her ship to get down to Qo'noS)

 

[RAMA]

Just a thought...we have to get used to the warp 10 scale no longer being valid in this universe...they are taking the element from Star Wars that makes storytelling easier...almost instantaneous supra light travel, in this case a transwarp like speed.

I don't necessarily have a problem with transwarp beaming, especially how it was described in the last movie. There have been science fiction stories in literature for years about long distance near-instantaneous travel, so it's not unprecedented.

ST has always played fast and loose with ranks. Again this is not really a big issue to me. Hardly indicative of bad script writing.

Perhaps not 'bad' but childish. Kirk's promotion was childish in its lack of realism for all the reasons spoken by Pike in this film. Chekov's promotion was childish in its realism. It isn't just about that fact that Chekov has just been placed in charge of about a dozen people who outrank him - it was a hamfisted way of giving him something to do. They could have done something similar without actually making him the chief.

Transwarping is childish. It doesn't pay any attention to their own established laws of physics. I'm not saying that the distance is the issue - its the timing and the method of actually knowing where you are going to end up that make no sense.

Trek has always been a bit silly but I just feel they are pushing the envelope too far. Re-watch early TOS in the light of the fact that it was made in the sixties. The science feels so much more sensible and grounded.

Warp drive doesnt really rely on established laws of physics, it bypasses them.

In what series, especially back in the 60-80s do the nominal stars and co-stars NOT have more screen time than the namless characters, who outrank them or not? Well not really any of them. Same with STNG or Stargate or B5...it doesnt matter who should go on away missions, it's the paid stars who are going. This is not reality, this is Hollywood.

RAMA

 

[Aike]

[.

Well, the only mention of Khan's backstory in TWOK is when Chekov tells Terrell that Khan is a criminal and a product of late 20th century genetic engineering. Then Khan says Kirk stranded them on Ceti Alpha V.

As far as Harrison's motivations go, they may have been less recognizable than Khan's in TWOK (who was motivated only by pure, blinding revenge) because they were more subtle or nuanced (protect his commrades -- eventually free them, then go from there).

The scene with Spock Prime bothers me. I hope there's context to it. Why can't Spock find out about Khan from the ship's library computers, like in "Space Seed"? And from what I've heard (not having seen the movie yet), Spock Prime really doesn't say anything helpful.

Because Spock doesn´t need historical facts of who Khan was and what he did. He doesn´t trust Khan, who Kirk has teamed up with and space jumped into the USS Vengeance with. Spock thinks he needs a way to beat him in order to save the captain. Then, the logical thing is to call Spock Prime. He just can´t get the info he needs from the ship´s computer. Anyway, the whole conversation between them isn´t shown. So we have to imagine what Spock Prime tells Spock.

I was worried about this scene just being a fanwank, but it works well and feels natural in the movie. And, of course, it is great seeing Nimoy again

 

[Franklin]

[.

Well, the only mention of Khan's backstory in TWOK is when Chekov tells Terrell that Khan is a criminal and a product of late 20th century genetic engineering. Then Khan says Kirk stranded them on Ceti Alpha V.

As far as Harrison's motivations go, they may have been less recognizable than Khan's in TWOK (who was motivated only by pure, blinding revenge) because they were more subtle or nuanced (protect his commrades -- eventually free them, then go from there).

The scene with Spock Prime bothers me. I hope there's context to it. Why can't Spock find out about Khan from the ship's library computers, like in "Space Seed"? And from what I've heard (not having seen the movie yet), Spock Prime really doesn't say anything helpful.

Because Spock doesn´t need historical facts of who Khan was and what he did. He doesn´t trust Khan, but he needs to get some information to confirm his own view. And he needs a way to beat him. Then, the logical thing is to call Spock Prime. He just can´t get the info he needs from the ship´s computer. Anyway, the whole conversation between them isn´t shown. So we have to imagine what Spock Prime tells Spock.

I was worried about this scene just being a fanwank, but it works well and feels natural in the movie. And, of course, it is great seeing Nimoy again

Good. It also addresses the "Will they or won't they?" question about picking Spock Prime's brain in crucial situations that was a topic of these boards for quite a while. Apparently, Spock will. Why not? Spock Prime is a resource. As you said, it's logical.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Having Kronos 2mins away from Earth at warp is, well, idiotic. Why bother with a neutral zone when both worlds are now next door to each other? Klingon surprise attack by its entire fleet based at Kronos would be straightforward. It should be days away at least. Preferably weeks! It contradicts everything in Star Trek so far.

I guess you missed Enterprise's "Broken Bow"

And Deep Space Nine, where Earth, Bajor, Romulus, Kronos and Ferenginar were just a short Runabout ride away.

 

[BillJ]

Having Kronos 2mins away from Earth at warp is, well, idiotic. Why bother with a neutral zone when both worlds are now next door to each other? Klingon surprise attack by its entire fleet based at Kronos would be straightforward. It should be days away at least. Preferably weeks! It contradicts everything in Star Trek so far.

No, it really doesn't.

Warp speed has always been as fast as the plot needs it to be. In TOS, the Enterprise traveled 990+ light years in a few hours. In TNG, Q hurled the Enterprise 7000 light years away and it would only take two years to get back to Federation space. In Voyager, it would take seventy years to travel 70,000 light years.

 

[beamMe]

Additional

......anyone else think Noel Clarkes character was entirely unnecessary and we really didn't need to see the whole father/daughter stuff....i mean he's Khan....i'm sure if we just saw a massive explosion at the start of the film, we could easily accept that khan/Harrison could have done this (cos he's clever and such) without needing to see all the preamble nonsense with Clarke leading up to it...plus it would have shaved about 8 minutes from the film (which was necessary imo)

That sequence servers it's purposes: It establishes Harrison/Khan, his charisma, his knowledge and most importantly his blood and what it can do.
The scenes tie into the film's theme of "what would you do for your family".
And that's why Noel Clarke's character is important. He shows that perfectly ordinary people can be brought to do the most awful crimes.
Khan managed to turn him into a suicide-bomber, because he (Khan) was known at Section 31.

 

[JD]

I'm in the US so I haven't seen the movie yet, and can't comment on it's specifics, but I think travel time has easily been one of the least consistent aspects of the entire franchise. So any travel time issues in this movie don't really worry me at all.

 

[Flake]

Having Kronos 2mins away from Earth at warp is, well, idiotic. Why bother with a neutral zone when both worlds are now next door to each other? Klingon surprise attack by its entire fleet based at Kronos would be straightforward. It should be days away at least. Preferably weeks! It contradicts everything in Star Trek so far.

I guess you missed Enterprise's "Broken Bow"

And Deep Space Nine, where Earth, Bajor, Romulus, Kronos and Ferenginar were just a short Runabout ride away.

Having Kronos 2mins away from Earth at warp is, well, idiotic. Why bother with a neutral zone when both worlds are now next door to each other? Klingon surprise attack by its entire fleet based at Kronos would be straightforward. It should be days away at least. Preferably weeks! It contradicts everything in Star Trek so far.

No, it really doesn't.

Warp speed has always been as fast as the plot needs it to be. In TOS, the Enterprise traveled 990+ light years in a few hours. In TNG, Q hurled the Enterprise 7000 light years away and it would only take two years to get back to Federation space. In Voyager, it would take seventy years to travel 70,000 light years.

Yes I am aware of these episodes. I think Enterprise, Broken Bow was 4 days at Warp 5? or something? Its still a significant passage of time.

Runabout hops? My DS9 is rusty.. but where any of these hops 2 minutes? Do we know the travel time?

I know the ship travels at the speed of plot but the distances and travel times in STID are unprecedented in Trek and must indicate they are using a new kind of warp speed? Transwarp? You cannot deny this? The implications for telling a Trek story in future films or television are huge assuming they continue this movies continuity. The galaxy is a small place now. Smaller than ever before.

 

[Flake]

I'm in the US so I haven't seen the movie yet, and can't comment on it's specifics, but I think travel time has easily been one of the least consistent aspects of the entire franchise. So any travel time issues in this movie don't really worry me at all.

Yes, I understand where you are coming from and I agree. The new travel time from Earth to Klingon homeworld is about 2 minutes... does this concur with the rest of the franchise movies/eps thus far? I think not. Its unprecedented. Except for Star Trek V which is universally derided and dismissed. (Centre of the galaxy in 6 hours)

 

[SalvorHardin]

The new travel time from Earth to Klingon homeworld is about 2 minutes...

I'm curious, is the duration of travel stated in the movie?
Or is it like the 2009 travel to Vulcan, where people were saying it took 3 minutes, but there were cuts in the movie where McCoy had time to change uniforms etc etc

 

[BillJ]

The galaxy is a small place now. Smaller than ever before.

Does it make the galaxy smaller? Sure. But it doesn't bother me. With films like these, so much depends on the crew running on adrenaline, action scene to action scene. So even though we don't see it from an audience perspective, those six travel days would be just as unrealistic for the characters to remain amped up and ready for action.

It's just a trade off.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I'm in the US so I haven't seen the movie yet, and can't comment on it's specifics, but I think travel time has easily been one of the least consistent aspects of the entire franchise. So any travel time issues in this movie don't really worry me at all.

Yes, I understand where you are coming from and I agree. The new travel time from Earth to Klingon homeworld is about 2 minutes... does this concur with the rest of the franchise movies/eps thus far? I think not. Its unprecedented. Except for Star Trek V which is universally derided and dismissed. (Centre of the galaxy in 6 hours)

In TOS' second pilot, "Where No Man Has Gone Before" the Enterprise was at the rim of the galaxy. They visited the centre of the galaxy in "Magicks of Megas Tu" and STV. In "That Which Survives" the old Enterprise covers 1000 light-years in 12 hours at warp 8.4 - they'd have made Voyager's journey in a month! In "Conspiracy" the Enterprise-D warps 900 light years in a flash. In Star Trek: First Contact, the Enterprise-E jumps from the Romulan Neutral Zone to Earth in the space of a scene break after listing to the Borg battle. Compare that with "Balance of Terror" and "The Neutral Zone", where the RNZ was so far out that messages took days to reach Starfleet and back.

It's wildly inconsistent - but IMO since it's happened so often before, it's a valid for Into Darkness to use the ultra-fast speeds too. No transwarp, just speed-of-plot.

 

[Aike]

Still following international reaction on twitter and elsewhere...the bad reactions are usually dire, usually coincide with preconceived notions of Khan. I'd say these bad reviews are running at 5% or less. Im still seeing 25-30% calling it the best Star Trek movie ever and a larger percentage calling it better than ST09, usually because of characterization and the more complex plot, as well as superior villain.. Of course RT is still at 90% fresh after 60 reviews. http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_trek_into_darkness/

As for myself, I'm still not a fan of the Khan idea, however, I've softened a lot since the rumors started..deciding to consider it like a Bond Blofeld, or Batman's Joker type antagonist analogy. Also, the appearance of Khan is mitigated for me by who's playing the role, I've been a Cumberbatch fan for a long time, and touting the Sherlock series well before it came to the USA (don't ask). Also simply thinking of it as an alternate history that can be told. When the Orci comics came out, the first issue was almost a duplication of the TOS episode, then it started to vary to a greater degree. People are going to complain no matter what...if it's too close, its not original, of it's too far afield, then it's not Star Trek. I'm going into the movie with an open mind.

RAMA

My prediction is that US trekkers in general will love this movie. I think the reason we are seeing some lower grades this time around is because it has opened outside the US first.
Here´s why.

1) The fact is that, maybe except the UK, and it´s a big maybe, TOS was never as popular as TNG or even Voyager in many European countries or Australia and New Zealand. For instance, Star Trek (2009) sold less tickets than First Contact and Insurrection in Germany. On IMDB Star Trek (2009), has a much higher average among American voters than among non-American ones. Given that Into Darkness has 8.4 now and it is mainly international votes coming in, it will go through the roof next weekend when it opens in the US.

2) Lots of folks that liked and loved the last one, still enjoy Into Darkness even if they grade it lower. I think this has to do with that they are mainly TNG era fans. They were just happy to see anykind of new Star Trek in 2009. But they are not as attached to Kirk, Spock and the rest of the crew as Americans are.

3) People believed it would be Star Trek: The Empire Strikes Back or Star Trek: The Dark Knight mixed with some kind of disaster movie because of the marketing and tag lines like "Earth will fall". It´s not. It´s a lot lighter. They are just selling it like that to bring in average joe sixpack that has no interest in space battles. If you´re a trekker, forget about the marketing. Instead, read what JJ, Burke and the script writers are saying.


4) Some have had too high expectations. So it´s good to be a little pessimistic. Star Trek (2009) was excellent. Still, this is a worthy sequel and most of you guys will enjoy it as soon as it begins. If you liked the nine minute preview, you will enjoy the rest of the movie. The fun doesn´t end until two hours later.

I just wish I would be able to see it in the US, because it is a crowd pleaser.

 

[Flake]

The new travel time from Earth to Klingon homeworld is about 2 minutes...

I'm curious, is the duration of travel stated in the movie?
Or is it like the 2009 travel to Vulcan, where people were saying it took 3 minutes, but there were cuts in the movie where McCoy had time to change uniforms etc etc

No ambiguity about the travel time. Kirk orders warp, we see the ship go to warp then Carol Marcus informs Kirk that the Vengeance will still be able to catch up and overtake them.. this takes 30 seconds. Then another 30 seconds whilst the Vengeance catches them and another 30 seconds of them firing. And they are at Earth.

Fortunately for the Enterprise, the final shot of the Vengeance that snatches them out of warp speed occurs when they are only 200,000 km from their destination. So it didn't matter that they caught up because probably 0.000001second after the critical shot the computer would've come out of warp speed anyway. Its just such shit writing it takes me right out of the movie for a moment whilst I shake my head . Didn't have this issue with ST09.

 

[ClayHefner]

I think the whole Warp speed thing is not so terrible.
It's more like Star Wars now, which isn't a bad thing. On Star Wars they also could jump around the galaxy rather quickly. And the SW galaxy still felt big and mysterious.
One problem is certainly that a five year mission isn't really a journey into the unexpected anymore when they can just warp (or beam) back to Earth every evening to rearm and have a few drinks.

Transwarp beaming is different though. It's hard to imagine a series without nerfing this.
If you think about it, though, the new "SW'ish Warp" reduces the "universe-shattering" effect of transwarp beaming. Because if you can have an armed ship anywhere in minutes you may prefer that over beaming people instead (and long-range beaming might have other complications and dangers they could always introduce later).
Loved the movie, disliked 09, STID's my fav ST movie now. Brainless and brutally fast-paced at times, but the heck. Cumberbatch and new Klings are badass.
9/10

 

[BillJ]

The new travel time from Earth to Klingon homeworld is about 2 minutes...

I'm curious, is the duration of travel stated in the movie?
Or is it like the 2009 travel to Vulcan, where people were saying it took 3 minutes, but there were cuts in the movie where McCoy had time to change uniforms etc etc

No ambiguity about the travel time. Kirk orders warp, we see the ship go to warp then Carol Marcus informs Kirk that the Vengeance will still be able to catch up and overtake them.. this takes 30 seconds. Then another 30 seconds whilst the Vengeance catches them and another 30 seconds of them firing. And they are at Earth.

Fortunately for the Enterprise, the final shot of the Vengeance that snatches them out of warp speed occurs when they are only 200,000 km from their destination. So it didn't matter that they caught up because probably 0.000001second after the critical shot the computer would've come out of warp speed anyway. Its just such shit writing it takes me right out of the movie for a moment whilst I shake my head . Didn't have this issue with ST09.

Did it take you out of First Contact when the Enterprise went from the Romulan Neutral Zone to Earth in a blink of an eye?