Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited
- Thread starter ZapBrannigan
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Then what changed your mind as you are apparently advocating that the (TOS) Enterprise is a member of the Constitution Class, now?
You may believe whatever you want, of course, but since the focus of the schematic in "The Trouble With Tribbles" (and originally "Space Seed") is the "Primary Phaser L.R" and not a starship of the Constitution Class the "MK IX/01" obviously refers to the primary phaser (to tell you what generation and model you are looking at).
If Scotty or Khan would have wanted technical details of a starship of the Constitution Class they would have opened the corresponding file...
Jein reinterpretated the phaser designation as a starship designation because he needed the "01" to manufacture a connection to the "1701" to be able to "conclude" that the Enterprise belonged to the Constitution Class.
I don't believe that two separate people at the same time came up with the same "exotic" conclusion, thus I'm confident that Franz Joseph merely copied the "MK IX" from Greg Jein's article - and of course the idea that "NCC-1700" referred to the USS Constitution.
Bob
As has been pointed out above, your timing is all off. Jein's article came out a year and a half after the Booklet of General Plans was complete, and a year after it was released. We know from the available documentary evidence that Franz Joseph was using (by his count) up to 100,000 film clips. Obviously he got the MK IX designation from the phaser diagram. The phaser diagram which first appeared in The Trouble With Tribbles. As you can see, it didn't appear in Space Seed:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2321/2232742083_ace480cec6.jpg
As for your initial question about why I dropped the point that at the start, Enterprise was intended to be the first of her class, I'll quote myself:
I'm happy with that because, you know, life is short and there is no definitive answer so arguing the point is... pointless.
I think your timeline is a little messed up. 
As has been discussed on this board, the "Trouble with Tribbles" diagram actually is from "Space Seed." It was originally made for the script direction of Scene 44 where Khan is reviewing diagrams for a Constitution Class Starship." The close-up of the graphic ended up on the cutting room floor, but the drawing was dusted off and repurposed later for "Tribbles." So the notion that Khan is looking at Constitution Class stuff was scripted long before "Doomsday Machine." (I guess whether we are to assume that Khan was interested in the class of ship that the Enterprise is, or if he's more interested in classes of ships that are forerunners of the Enterprise is something Matt Jefferies would know.)
Bjo Trimble probably landed on this Constitution Class data point for her Concordance book from 1968 from film clips or the script or both.
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=7762669&postcount=184
As has been discussed on this board, the "Trouble with Tribbles" diagram actually is from "Space Seed." It was originally made for the script direction of Scene 44 where Khan is reviewing diagrams for a Constitution Class Starship." The close-up of the graphic ended up on the cutting room floor, but the drawing was dusted off and repurposed later for "Tribbles." So the notion that Khan is looking at Constitution Class stuff was scripted long before "Doomsday Machine." (I guess whether we are to assume that Khan was interested in the class of ship that the Enterprise is, or if he's more interested in classes of ships that are forerunners of the Enterprise is something Matt Jefferies would know.)
Bjo Trimble probably landed on this Constitution Class data point for her Concordance book from 1968 from film clips or the script or both.
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=7762669&postcount=184
Are you sure about that, Greg? I bow to your expertise in this area, but I seem to recall reading that the two displays were not in fact the same. And that clip I posted a link to above would seem to confirm that. It doesn't appear to be the phaser schematic.
That is where I saw it! Thanks! It was a wing diagram and not the hydraulic reservoir diagram used in "Trouble With Tribbles"!
I see what you mean, however. The art used in the episode was not the same, however the art used in "Tribbles" had been prepared for "Space Seed" and not used.
I see what you mean, however. The art used in the episode was not the same, however the art used in "Tribbles" had been prepared for "Space Seed" and not used.
Yes--like I said: it was cutting room floor stuff (until it was dusted off, colorized, repurposed, and used in "Tribbles").
The notation on the graphic is for a MK-IX/01 Constitution-class starship. I think the idea for the graphic was to show Khan reading up about the kind of ship he finds himself aboard. If that's what the graphic was meant to convey than at least as far back as "Space Seed" the Enterprise is supposed to be a Constitution-class ship. And the /01 added to the MK-IX might be supposed to mean the graphic is of the Enterprise's primary phaser. The same thinking could be in effect when the graphic finally shows up onscreen in "The Trouble With Tribbles."
As I said before, I guess it might be open to interpretation whether we are to assume that Khan was interested in the Enterprise and its class of starship or if he was, instead, reading up on other kinds and classes of starships from other eras that might have been forerunners to the Enterprise.
It turns out, there's an answer to the question. Matt Jefferies actually had a set of marching orders: the script. He didn't just create any old graphic he wanted. The script for "Space Seed" actually has a pretty significant line:
Khan:
"I was once an engineer of sorts. I would be most interested in studying the tech manual on your vessel."
(Note that Khan says that he is interested in learning about "your vessel," not "vessels that are earlier forerunners and somewhat similar to this one.") I don't know how well Jeferies actually hit this target artistically, but I think his target was clear.)
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I think that's well reasoned.
Yep. That is as conclusive as it gets. I have to admit it is a little odd, given the situation, that he WOULDN'T have made it read ENTERPRISE CLASS, just to make it all the more clear what Khan was doing (and assuming these various displays were being made with a close up in mind). He must have been told to put something else there so it wouldn't be so obvious what Khan was doing.
Yes, it wasn't really his call what class name to use. He just made pretty much what the "Space Seed" script asked of him. Scene 44 of the Second Revised Final Draft for "Space Seed," dated December 13, 1966 has the following content:
"44 ANGLE ON SICK BAY VIEWER
"It is covered with mathematical symbols and diagrams. CAMERA PULLS BACK to show Khan studying with great concentration. He pushes a button. Another transparency appears: a chapter heading, reading: BASIC SPECIFICATIONS, CONSTITUTION CLASS STAR SHIP."
Scenes 47 and 48 have similar content:
From 47:
"...At the door, she [McGivers] turns and looks back at him. He gives her a strong, masculine, confident smile. She is about to say something, but turns and exits. Khan turns back to his studying. He pushes a button, stares back up at his screen.
"48 INSERT SCREEN
"A chapter heading: Basic Propulsion Systems, Constitution Class Star Ship."
So, yes, he was told what those graphics from Scenes 44 and 48 should contain. In the end, folks who thought that Khan, reading a screen about a Constitution Class starship after asking Kirk for a tech manual on Kirk's ship, implied that Kirk's ship was a Constitution Class starship can be forgiven. It doesn't seem like a bizzare leap to have made--and, in fact, I think it's the very leap we were supposed to make.
I have no problem with the E being Constitution-class. I have no problem with the Constitution being the first of the line. Despite MJ's later explanation I think it's what's onscreen that takes primacy. I don't have a problem with the Republic and Constellation being older upgraded ships (mind you never having actually seen the Republic it could actually be another class). I prefer the rest of the 17 series registries being sequential because it's simply more straightforward. Unless there is strong evidence that other ships mentioned onscreen had non 17 series registries that makes the registry really system weird.
I just don't care for Jein's assumption that all the numbers on Stone's wall chart are Constitution-class. It's just too small world for my liking. It's more credible if the chart represents a mix of ship classes.
I just don't care for Jein's assumption that all the numbers on Stone's wall chart are Constitution-class. It's just too small world for my liking. It's more credible if the chart represents a mix of ship classes.
SFAF COMMAND
FROM STARFLEET HEADQUARTERS
TO ALL SECTORS
SD 1016.2
DO NOT CREATE VESSEL REGISTRY NUMBERS THAT WILL ALLOW FOREIGN POWERS TO EXTRAPOLATE OUR OVERALL FLEET STRENGTH BASED SIMPLY ON OBVIOUS VESSEL NUMBERING.
END COMMUNICATION
Apparently Lenny Nurdbol was excommunicated for the derogatory language he couldn't resist using.
If he’d been excommunicated for being stubborn and/or twisting "facts" to fit his theories at the expense of others, there'd be some participants here that should worry, too.
This is the fourth (?) debate I’m participating on the „Class Issue“ and despite new dialogue evidence I presented in post # 177 on page 12 to prevent Greg Schnitzer from using up thread space with his screenplay excerpts he did it – yet again – and – worse – deliberately ignored the other Khan dialogue I quoted word by word which makes it abundantly clear that to fabricate the conclusion that Khan is ONLY reading the technical manual of the Enterprise is not only totally conjectural but wrong.
“I’ve been reading up on starships (MORE THAN ONE CLASS!), but they have a luxury not mentioned in the manuals. (MORE THAN ONE MANUAL !)” Khan
(He doesn't say "I've been reading up on your starship" !!!)
Equally, in “The Trouble With Tribbles”, Scotty is not reading the manual of the Enterprise but simply a “technical journal”:
“Another technical journal, Scotty?” “Aye” (= YES)
The other thing that has been brought up, again, is to doubt the genuine pre-production nature of the Jefferies sketch which obviously shows the TOS Enterprise and states it’s the “first in the series” (at the expense of Walter Matt Jefferies, the creator of the Enterprise - !!! – who has now somehow fallen under suspicion of having made that drawing at a later time to propagate his Enterprise Class preference
).
You don’t have to be a forensic expert to notice that this is not a sketch from the 1970’s during the Phase II project:
Had the producers / creators felt after “Space Seed” and prior to their name finding, that the Enterprise was a member of the Constitution Class
I'm not running around the Trek BBS making unsubstantiated claims and fail to deliver hints, substance or evidence. If you choose to ignore this by not discussing it (because it's not compatible with your beliefs), I wonder what is the actual distinction between some Trek BBS participants and the likes of James Dixon / Lenny Nurdbol except to refrain from using fool language.
Bob
If he’d been excommunicated for being stubborn and/or twisting "facts" to fit his theories at the expense of others, there'd be some participants here that should worry, too.
This is the fourth (?) debate I’m participating on the „Class Issue“ and despite new dialogue evidence I presented in post # 177 on page 12 to prevent Greg Schnitzer from using up thread space with his screenplay excerpts he did it – yet again – and – worse – deliberately ignored the other Khan dialogue I quoted word by word which makes it abundantly clear that to fabricate the conclusion that Khan is ONLY reading the technical manual of the Enterprise is not only totally conjectural but wrong.
“I’ve been reading up on starships (MORE THAN ONE CLASS!), but they have a luxury not mentioned in the manuals. (MORE THAN ONE MANUAL !)” Khan
(He doesn't say "I've been reading up on your starship" !!!)
Equally, in “The Trouble With Tribbles”, Scotty is not reading the manual of the Enterprise but simply a “technical journal”:
“Another technical journal, Scotty?” “Aye” (= YES)
The other thing that has been brought up, again, is to doubt the genuine pre-production nature of the Jefferies sketch which obviously shows the TOS Enterprise and states it’s the “first in the series” (at the expense of Walter Matt Jefferies, the creator of the Enterprise - !!! – who has now somehow fallen under suspicion of having made that drawing at a later time to propagate his Enterprise Class preference
).You don’t have to be a forensic expert to notice that this is not a sketch from the 1970’s during the Phase II project:
- The “J” in the “Jefferies” signature is still the same as in those original 1960’s production sketches in contrast to the “J” in the Phase II sketches
- The Phase II sketches have month and year, the original ones never or hardly had
- The drawing is totally compatible with the style of the established original production sketches, the bow of the engineering hull may not have the spheres or baby cups but it’s definitely the same style
Had the producers / creators felt after “Space Seed” and prior to their name finding, that the Enterprise was a member of the Constitution Class
- The Making of Star Trek would have never used “Enterprise Class”
- The Constitution would have been on the first name list Bob Justman (nitpicky and accurate as he was) had compiled (or D.C. Fontana's one...)
I'm not running around the Trek BBS making unsubstantiated claims and fail to deliver hints, substance or evidence. If you choose to ignore this by not discussing it (because it's not compatible with your beliefs), I wonder what is the actual distinction between some Trek BBS participants and the likes of James Dixon / Lenny Nurdbol except to refrain from using fool language.
Bob
A Freudian slip?
Listen, I've asked folks to move on from this. He was a dual of a banned member. Case closed.
I'm trying to be patient since obviously this topic has some energy behind it (which is kind of strange to me, but whatever...). I'm asking again: please, take it easy. There is nothing in here worth getting angry or personal about.
Couldn't he have meant "I've been reading up on starships (of this class)"?
The plural could have referred to multiple ships of a single class, rather than multiple classes.
And I'm sure the entire ship isn't covered in a single manual.
Just my two cents
