When did voyager go wrong?

[Anwar]

Voyager had the potential for some very interesting and intense drama, unique plot arcs, great character development and change, but just utterly failed to execute. Despite all this, it's not the worst Trek series out there in my opinion... just the most disappointing. It could have been so much more.

Folks who say this don't realize how constrained the premise actually was.

You -can- have tension between two different groups of people without them resorting to blows. There is a balance between full fledged mutiny and acting like normal Starfleet people with different rank insignia that the show failed to realize. It's just lazy writing more than anything. They chose to stick with what's familiar.

The premise is that a bunch of people on a small, insignificant ship are thrown to the other side of the Galaxy. Even though the same thing happened to Kirk and Picard with both returning home easily, these guys can't (an early sign of incompetence).

The premise says they will never have any support, meaning no one will EVER help them in ANY way because it would violate the premise. Doing so is a betrayal of the premise and unforgivable.

The crew is made up of two groups who are nominally opposed, but really don't have enough in the way of differences for it to have any impact on the show.

Since they are just one tiny insignificant ship with an insignificant crew (no one famous, no "chosen ones", no God-Humans, no Flagship personnel) nothing they do can be of any real importance on the Galaxy or the Delta Quadrant's well-being because doing anything would make them too important for one tiny insignificant ship.

And since they're always moving they can never stay in one place without getting complaints no matter the reasoning, meaning they'll never be able to introduce recurring characters or give their new aliens the time they need to be better developed. And since the crew are all alien to the Delta Quadrant they have no connection to local affairs meaning there's no dramatic potential there either.

Being an insignificant tiny ship also means they can't introduce anyone tough because a tiny insignificant ship can't beat anyone, so the only option is to constantly run away like spineless cowards from everything. See folks being attacked by space pirates? Well too bad, we're too insignificant to do anything so we'll just run off and let innocent people get slaughtered because we're too chicken-sh*t to try anything.

That is the premise of Voyager.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

The moment 90% of the best TNG writers went to DS9.

DS9 gets Behr, Biemer, Piller, Echevaria and Moore and Voyager gets...Braga and Ryan. DS9 made out like a divorced wife in Massachusetts.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

The moment 90% of the best TNG writers went to DS9.

DS9 gets Behr, Biemer, Piller, Echevaria and Moore and Voyager gets...Braga and Ryan. DS9 made out like a divorced wife in Massachusetts.

VOY had Piller for the showrunner for the first two seasons and a consulting producer for the later seasons.

 

[Anwar]

The moment 90% of the best TNG writers went to DS9.

The guys whose bright idea to end the massive Dominion threat on the other end of the Wormhole was a literal deus ex machina? Seriously?

I suppose if DS9 had the Kazon as enemies and nothing was different about them, you'd eat it all up and think they were cool.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

The moment 90% of the best TNG writers went to DS9.

The guys whose bright idea to end the massive Dominion threat on the other end of the Wormhole was a literal deus ex machina? Seriously?

Don't remind me, I still boggle at it.

 

[secretreeve]

Folks who say this don't realize how constrained the premise actually was.

You -can- have tension between two different groups of people without them resorting to blows. There is a balance between full fledged mutiny and acting like normal Starfleet people with different rank insignia that the show failed to realize. It's just lazy writing more than anything. They chose to stick with what's familiar.

The premise is that a bunch of people on a small, insignificant ship are thrown to the other side of the Galaxy. Even though the same thing happened to Kirk and Picard with both returning home easily, these guys can't (an early sign of incompetence).

The premise says they will never have any support, meaning no one will EVER help them in ANY way because it would violate the premise. Doing so is a betrayal of the premise and unforgivable.

The crew is made up of two groups who are nominally opposed, but really don't have enough in the way of differences for it to have any impact on the show.

Since they are just one tiny insignificant ship with an insignificant crew (no one famous, no "chosen ones", no God-Humans, no Flagship personnel) nothing they do can be of any real importance on the Galaxy or the Delta Quadrant's well-being because doing anything would make them too important for one tiny insignificant ship.

And since they're always moving they can never stay in one place without getting complaints no matter the reasoning, meaning they'll never be able to introduce recurring characters or give their new aliens the time they need to be better developed. And since the crew are all alien to the Delta Quadrant they have no connection to local affairs meaning there's no dramatic potential there either.

Being an insignificant tiny ship also means they can't introduce anyone tough because a tiny insignificant ship can't beat anyone, so the only option is to constantly run away like spineless cowards from everything. See folks being attacked by space pirates? Well too bad, we're too insignificant to do anything so we'll just run off and let innocent people get slaughtered because we're too chicken-sh*t to try anything.

That is the premise of Voyager.

Did you even watch the show? Or any star trek?

If you have you should know full well size doesn't matter. If a pilot is skilled enough and a captain knows wht the frak they are doing the size of the ship doesn't matter. If anything, a smaller ship is better in combat. It's a smaller target, with smaller components making it harder to hit.

 

[WesleysDisciple]

Uhmmmn some argue it was NOT A ex deus machina as the prophets/Wormhole aliens having powers indistinguishable even to the federation from magic, is a long established part of the setting, and them having a interest in both Bajor, and Sisko in particular, is equally well established, therefore, its not an ex deus machina.

SF debris review , why I dont always agree with him on everything, seems to be spot on, about why people clash on this. "Imagine their was a work of fiction, that is otherwise historicaly accurate, taking place in the crusades, detailing everyday fairly realistic medieval life, but then someone was forced to deal regularly with a charachter who everyone else knows to be a demon, but is implied is just an alien. Well its understandable that this alien or demon or whatever would be seen by some as an annoyance, as his mere presence intrudes on the othwise Historicaly accurate medieval conflicts that are taking place." (not good at paraphrasing I admit)

Point is what happened on DS9 wasnt a Deus ex machina in the accepted usage , people who disliked the result are largely people from my experience, who are athiests, and dislike any praise being directed at faith."

The authors didnt exactly write themselves into a corner, All they'd have hade to have done is let Rom finish 2 seconds earlier and the minefield would still be in place, it wasnt an act of desperation but of deliberate design.

 

[Pavonis]

The DS9 writers didn't write themselves into a corner and then kick out the wall behind them when they realized what they had done (that would be a real deus ex machina). No, they deliberately made Sisko, who had fought so hard to get to them, call on the Prophets for help, help that was granted because he had earned it.

If people think the Prophets were a deus ex machina plot device, that just means they didn't know what a "deus ex machina" really is, and didn't see the significance of Sisko's call for help.

If there were any real deus ex machina plot saviors in Trek, it's Voyager's main deflector dish, which was always able to solve problems no matter what. Now that's a god-like machine! It's also one of the primary problems I had with the series.

 

[Guy Gardener]

"If you want us to treat you like Gods! Then damn well start acting like gods!"

The bible skips Jesus's life from years 6 through 30.

This is when Jesus was talking smack to his old man like Sisko did to the "Wormhole aliens" and it wasn't politic to admit that this stage in the Messiahs life existed because it wasn't exactly on message.

 

[WesleysDisciple]

Curious both you and SFdebris have the same idea that it would have been better if janeway had been first officer at first.

Curious where does chakotay start to seem overly submissive to janeway.

He questions her decisions at times like with the equinox.

 

[Anwar]

If people think the Prophets were a deus ex machina plot device, that just means they didn't know what a "deus ex machina" really is, and didn't see the significance of Sisko's call for help.

I do know that if Voyager had done something similar and had Kes beg the Female Caretaker to save them from a Borg Armada, or something like that, no one would see it as anything but Deus Ex Machina.

If there were any real deus ex machina plot saviors in Trek, it's Voyager's main deflector dish, which was always able to solve problems no matter what. Now that's a god-like machine! It's also one of the primary problems I had with the series.

It's no different than how the TOS Enterprise could go anywhere at any speed and always had the right equipment or the right materials to make whatever they needed.

 

[Anwar]

You -can- have tension between two different groups of people without them resorting to blows. There is a balance between full fledged mutiny and acting like normal Starfleet people with different rank insignia that the show failed to realize. It's just lazy writing more than anything. They chose to stick with what's familiar.

The premise is that a bunch of people on a small, insignificant ship are thrown to the other side of the Galaxy. Even though the same thing happened to Kirk and Picard with both returning home easily, these guys can't (an early sign of incompetence).

The premise says they will never have any support, meaning no one will EVER help them in ANY way because it would violate the premise. Doing so is a betrayal of the premise and unforgivable.

The crew is made up of two groups who are nominally opposed, but really don't have enough in the way of differences for it to have any impact on the show.

Since they are just one tiny insignificant ship with an insignificant crew (no one famous, no "chosen ones", no God-Humans, no Flagship personnel) nothing they do can be of any real importance on the Galaxy or the Delta Quadrant's well-being because doing anything would make them too important for one tiny insignificant ship.

And since they're always moving they can never stay in one place without getting complaints no matter the reasoning, meaning they'll never be able to introduce recurring characters or give their new aliens the time they need to be better developed. And since the crew are all alien to the Delta Quadrant they have no connection to local affairs meaning there's no dramatic potential there either.

Being an insignificant tiny ship also means they can't introduce anyone tough because a tiny insignificant ship can't beat anyone, so the only option is to constantly run away like spineless cowards from everything. See folks being attacked by space pirates? Well too bad, we're too insignificant to do anything so we'll just run off and let innocent people get slaughtered because we're too chicken-sh*t to try anything.

That is the premise of Voyager.

Did you even watch the show? Or any star trek?

If you have you should know full well size doesn't matter. If a pilot is skilled enough and a captain knows wht the frak they are doing the size of the ship doesn't matter. If anything, a smaller ship is better in combat. It's a smaller target, with smaller components making it harder to hit.

Then why did they get complaints anytime the ship and the crew did anything cool or important?

 

[Pavonis]

I do know that if Voyager had done something similar and had Kes beg the Female Caretaker to save them from a Borg Armada, or something like that, no one would see it as anything but Deus Ex Machina.

Only if Kes had no relationship with the female Caretaker. Sisko had a relationship with the Prophets that had built up over five seasons, with them always asking something from him and giving nothing but cryptic answers back to him. In the wormhole, facing the Dominion fleet, Sisko had earned the help of gods and they finally did something for him.

If Kes had a similar storyline, then the writers could've gotten away with a similar resolution.

It's no different than how the TOS Enterprise could go anywhere at any speed and always had the right equipment or the right materials to make whatever they needed.

Starships always travel at the speed of plot. That's not a plot problem, and it's not a plot resolution. That's not what I was referring to. I recall Voyager often solving the problems they faced by tinkering with the main deflector and shooting a particle-of-the-week at the anomaly-of-the-week, leading to a resolution of the story. Maybe it didn't happen as often as I recall, but my point is that the stories weren't often enough resolved by character choices, but by technological means. That's a valid way to end the story, but unfulfilling story-wise.

 

[Anwar]

If Kes had a similar storyline, then the writers could've gotten away with a similar resolution.

Doubtful. The audience couldn't even accept Voyager having an important relationship with anyone they encountered (the Vidiians, the Krenim, etc), let alone relationships with a God Alien.

The audience couldn't even accept that there was a single alien species that could fight off the Borg (the 8472) despite knowing that there were more powerful aliens than them for years.

Starships always travel at the speed of plot. That's not a plot problem, and it's not a plot resolution. That's not what I was referring to. I recall Voyager often solving the problems they faced by tinkering with the main deflector and shooting a particle-of-the-week at the anomaly-of-the-week, leading to a resolution of the story.

TNG did that a lot too, and no one cared. So did TOS.

 

[Pavonis]

You sure think you know a lot about "the audience". Did you take a poll?

 

[Anwar]

I've been observing the fandom for about 21 years now, I know the complaints well enough. Just like I know that Voyager is condemned more harshly than any other Trek show (including Enterprise) and other shows get away with the same things it's condemned for.

They have a cure for the Vidiians? They're too important.

They stopped the Krenim Timeship? They're too important.

Their possible role in the Kyrian conflict in "Living Witness"? They're too important.

Their role in the Borg/8472 conflict? They're too important.

Basically, anytime VOY did anything big and cool the audience reacted negatively and said they were having too big an impact on the DQ and its species. Nevermind that all the other Trek shows do the same damn thing and no one cared.

 

[Pavonis]

Did they do "the same damn thing", though? What kind of similar episodes from TOS, TNG, and DS9 are being compared with VOY episodes that do "the same damn thing?" It's likely there are similarities, but the differences are probably significant.

I don't think VOY gets any harsher criticism than any other Trek. It has its vocal opponents and just-as-vocal proponents. Don't develop a persecution complex over it.

 

[Anwar]

Did they do "the same damn thing", though? What kind of similar episodes from TOS, TNG, and DS9 are being compared with VOY episodes that do "the same damn thing?"

Kirk fights off Gods, stops superbeings like V'Ger or the Whale Probe or "God" from "The Final Frontier" and no one complains.

Voyager stops the Krenim Timeship, which could've threatened the fabric of time and space, and everyone complains about how they shouldn't have been able to do it.

TNG stops the Borg Cube from conquering Earth, no one complains.

VOY destroys a freaking PROBE SHIP in "Dark Frontier" and gets nothing but complains over how they shouldn't have been able to do that.

DS9 does a big epic story about a Galactic War, and no one complains about Sisko's role being too important.

Voyager runs into the Borg/8472 war and gets nothing but complaints over how an alien species that can fight the Borg shouldn't exist, and that VOY shouldn't have played any major role in this war.

I don't think VOY gets any harsher criticism than any other Trek. It has its vocal opponents and just-as-vocal proponents. Don't develop a persecution complex over it.

Hardly anyone stands up for VOY or points out the unfair double standards, though.

Hell, other shows like Farscape did similar things (Crichton being able to stop a massive galactic war between the Peacekeepers and Scarrans and brings both empire to their knees) and no one complains there either.

 

[Pavonis]

Voyager stops the Krenim Timeship, which could've threatened the fabric of time and space, and everyone complains about how they shouldn't have been able to do it.

I've never heard any complaints like that. The only complaint I have about the "Year of Hell" two-parter was that the entire series should've been similar to those episodes.

VOY destroys a freaking PROBE SHIP in "Dark Frontier" and gets nothing but complains over how they shouldn't have been able to do that.

Never heard that complaint either.

Voyager runs into the Borg/8472 war and gets nothing but complaints over how an alien species that can fight the Borg shouldn't exist, and that VOY shouldn't have played any major role in this war.

Again, I've not heard those complaints, but I think the episodes proved that Voyager would've been better off avoiding both parties and not siding with either.

Hardly anyone stands up for VOY or points out the unfair double standards, though.

Hell, other shows like Farscape did similar things (Crichton being able to stop a massive galactic war between the Peacekeepers and Scarrans and brings both empire to their knees) and no one complains there either.

Basically, I don't think the complaints you've heard are because of the plots used, but the execution of those plots. Sometimes VOY didn't do the same plots as well as other shows did.

 

[Anwar]

I've never heard any complaints like that. The only complaint I have about the "Year of Hell" two-parter was that the entire series should've been similar to those episodes.

Whoever says that is a dummy. There's no way they'd ever be able to repair the ship after that kind of beating, nor could they ever replace the lost crew (whom they couldn't survive without, for long) meaning the show would be over if they did a story like that.

The premise says they'll have "no support", which means they never get help from anyone or ever be able to barter for repairs or supplies or anything. To hold to that premise, that means "Year of Hell" would be the end.

Never heard that complaint either.

You're lucky. All I get is how showing Voyager winning against a Borg ship (ANY Borg ship) ruined them. And that includes the Probe ship in "Dark Frontier".

Again, I've not heard those complaints, but I think the episodes proved that Voyager would've been better off avoiding both parties and not siding with either.

Which is another example of the unfairness. If they do nothing then the audience would denounce them all as cowards or ineffective morons who should've done something.

Basically, I don't think the complaints you've heard are because of the plots used, but the execution of those plots. Sometimes VOY didn't do the same plots as well as other shows did.

I watched all those shows, I don't see any major problems in the execution. Except that the audience was always hoping for the entire crew to be killed off and the ship to be destroyed every single time.