What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

[Joby]

ST09 did well because we got to see Young Uhura without her clothes on. The Final Frontier didn't do well... because we got to see Old Uhura without her clothes on.

But the 2009 film did well because for the first time in a long time, it made Star Trek fun.

I completely agree. I liked TNG as a TV series, but really disliked the movies, because the tone and pace of TNG just didn't work for a movie format, in my opinion. And to me, it felt like everyone was trying to reinvent their characters in the TNG movies - Picard is suddenly doing action scene after action scene in contrived situations, suddenly being portrayed as a rule-breaker when we had seen him be quite conservative in the TV show, go-karting on a planet in a dune buggy ... Worf is threatening to kill Picard for calling him a coward ... it all pulled me out of the story... I felt like I was watching one of those TV reunion shows, where the actors or writers seem to be creating charicatures of their former character roles, rather than something new... The exciting frontier exploration, adventure, and action feel of the original series was what a movie needed, and when TNG tried to replicate that in their movies, it didn't work...

Mostly agree with your points.

TNG was a great TV series from the 2nd season onwards to the end. However it was a very lackluster movie franchise. The TV series was an ensemble show and the movies changed the characters and it turned to Picard and Data and Picard going from the dignified diplomat to the rule breaking action hero. Everything set up about Data from the TV series into Generations was suddenly forgot about after that. The writers wanted early TNG curious and innocent Data back and it just felt weird. Plus a lot of stuff happened in that first movie GEN which was huge for the TNG universe. The E-D was destroyed, Data got emotions, Worf was promoted, the Duras sisters were killed, and ofcourse Picard meets James. T. Kirk. All of these plots are big events for TNG and would have been a 2 or 3 parter of the TV series, but instead they got crammed into the 1st movie.

Now First Contact did work b/c we were able to accept Picard as an action hero in that movie b/c of his utter hatred for the Borg, which does have it's roots in the TNG TV series. There's another problem with the TNG movies, not enough good villains from the TV show could be used in a movie. The Romulans are interesting to Trekkers, but otherwise they are big shoulder pad wearing bores.

 

[RAMA]

Would we say that Nemesis wasn't really the "franchise killer"? Oh sure, it killed the TNG movies. But the prime universe continued to exist for a further three years on Enterprise, and Rick Berman was working on another (ultimately abandoned) movie script. If anything, its Enterprise that seems to have killed any goodwill for the Prime universe. That was the last one out of the gate.

I see it a little differently. TNG died right after Nemesis, killed by Enterprise and the sudden urge to do a prequel. Ever since then, the "Prime" universe that mattered was gone anyway and we got a show and a film that dealt with time travel and how things were manipulated in the past. In both Enterprise and Abramstrek we get the "this isn't supposed to be this way" idea. So they haven't revisited the Prime universe for 11 years now.

The STNG universe is alive and well, it's still in demand on cable networks, was resold into syndication,, does well on Netflix, is now a best seller after it's restoration. Not only alive but prospers in novels and comics.

RAMA

 

[RAMA]

For me, what sunk the Trek franchise of old was Star Trek Nemesis. It was just illogical and dumb. I also think that it really was a slap in the face to long term trekkies. Why was Lore not mentioned when they were discussing B4...

Because it wasn't a movie about Lore. When you talk to someone do you mention every member of your family every, single time?

To me this is a glaring omission..you may not mention your family...UNLESS your family was the only one of it's kind on Earth! If you're a highly exotic positronic sentient android, finding two or three of yourself is a pretty big deal.

 

[Lance]

TNG was a great TV series from the 2nd season onwards to the end. However it was a very lackluster movie franchise. The TV series was an ensemble show and the movies changed the characters and it turned to Picard and Data and Picard going from the dignified diplomat to the rule breaking action hero. Everything set up about Data from the TV series into Generations was suddenly forgot about after that. The writers wanted early TNG curious and innocent Data back and it just felt weird. Plus a lot of stuff happened in that first movie GEN which was huge for the TNG universe. The E-D was destroyed, Data got emotions, Worf was promoted, the Duras sisters were killed, and ofcourse Picard meets James. T. Kirk. All of these plots are big events for TNG and would have been a 2 or 3 parter of the TV series, but instead they got crammed into the 1st movie.

Now First Contact did work b/c we were able to accept Picard as an action hero in that movie b/c of his utter hatred for the Borg, which does have it's roots in the TNG TV series. There's another problem with the TNG movies, not enough good villains from the TV show could be used in a movie. The Romulans are interesting to Trekkers, but otherwise they are big shoulder pad wearing bores.

Sometimes I wonder if it was actually First Contact which torpedoed the Picard character we knew and loved from TV. GENS clearly shows us TV Picard, a man who tries to reason with Soran, and who tries to use brute force only once all other options are extinguished. FC, as you rightly say, still feels 'correct' with TV Picard, but only because the Borg situation opens up an old wound that he never truly healed. The kicker comes in Insurrection, where the relative success of FC seems to have resulted in the writer saying "Okay, so Picard is now an action hero". The unique qualities which made him stand out on TNG when compared opposite Shatner's Kirk were abandoned, and in the remaining two movies we got a very different interpretation of Picard. What the writers forgot is that his character transformation in FC was driven by the situation. The Borg were a wild card. His character transformation in INS and NEM on the other hand is driven by nothing. It just seems so out of left field, and ends up looking bizarre to those of us who have watched this character for 7+ years on television.

 

[DalekJim]

I watched Insurrection this morning over breakfast and really enjoyed it. It's very flawed but still a good movie and actually sets out to tell a science-fiction story unlike most of the Trek films. I've enjoyed it more than The Search for Spock, The Voyage Home, The Final Frontier and Generations during this marathon. Might also rank it above First Contact too as it resembles Star Trek a lot more but I thought First Contact was better structured as a movie.

I think people tend to be WAY too lenient on the TOS movies. Nichols and Takei are awful in them (Though Koenig is weirdly great!) and the crew seem ridiculously lightweight and cosey compared to how they were in the series. I still enjoy them all but I'd definitely say First Contact and Insurrection are better than a good chunk of them.

 

[Lance]

I think people tend to be WAY too lenient on the TOS movies. Nichols and Takei are awful in them (Though Koenig is weirdly great!) and the crew seem ridiculously lightweight and cosey compared to how they were in the series.

I do know what you mean. I've never been able to associate Scotty in the movies with Scotty on TV for example. I know it's the same guy, being played by the same actor. But there's just something about 'Movie Scotty' (apart from his weight! ) which doesn't seem to tally with the man who was the Enterprise's Mister Fix-It in the 1960s. Maybe it's because we never truly see him in the same kind of roles? Scotty was regularly put in command of the Enterprise on TV, quite apart from his engineering duties, but we never really saw that in a movie. The same is true of Takei and Nichols. Neither of the characters were ever what you could call 'utilized very strongly' on TV in the first place, but they were strangely more dynamic all the same than they are in some of the films. There's a sort of lethargy to the performances of the wider TOS cast in the movies (maybe even with the Big Three).

Having said all that, there's a BIGGER lethargy in the Next Generation cast as seen in Nemesis than there ever was in the TOS movie cast members. Having watched a bit of it recently, I have to say Stewarts', Frakes' and to a lesser extent Burton's performances were clearly just being phoned in (to me, Spiner and Sirtis did both at least seem to be making an effort).

 

[DalekJim]

I think the TNG cast are all superb in First Contact and Insurrection. Only criticism to be made is that Marina Sirtis is playing herself and not Troi but I'm not much of a Troi fan so I can't say I mind.

The character of Picard is supposed to be acting out of character in First Contact so I let it slide. We're supposed to be finding his attitude wrong when he goes all "I WILL MAKE THEM PAY FOR THAT THEY'VE DONE!". His obsession for revenge isn't supposed to be some gung-ho thing we cheer at like people on this forum make out, but something that shocks us so we're pleased when he comes to his senses at the end.

In Nemesis everybody seems tired for whatever reason. I still rate the script above Trek 09 and Generations which are the weakest movie scripts, but the production itself lacks the energy of the previous 2 movies. It's not an awful movie but every time I finish watching it I just feel tired. Every time I finish Generations I feel pissed off and fed up though so at least it's an improvement on that.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

I think the TNG cast are all superb in First Contact and Insurrection. Only criticism to be made is that Marina Sirtis is playing herself and not Troi but I'm not much of a Troi fan so I can't say I mind.

The character of Picard is supposed to be acting out of character in First Contact so I let it slide. We're supposed to be finding his attitude wrong when he goes all "I WILL MAKE THEM PAY FOR THAT THEY'VE DONE!". His obsession for revenge isn't supposed to be some gung-ho thing we cheer at like people on this forum make out, but something that shocks us so we're pleased when he comes to his senses at the end.

In Nemesis everybody seems tired for whatever reason. I still rate the script above Trek 09 and Generations which are the weakest movie scripts, but the production itself lacks the energy of the previous 2 movies. It's not an awful movie but every time I finish watching it I just feel tired. Every time I finish Generations I feel pissed off and fed up though so at least it's an improvement on that.

Ditto to the TNG crew looking and feeling tired in NEM. I chalk it up to NEM being the end of their era. With all the actors knowing this would be there last movie and being away from Trek for some many years after INS they just didn't care as much. I still rate NEM higher than 09 since 09 just copied the dame format as TWOK and NEM. But the fresh young cast of 09 does make it fun and enjoyable to watch. Personally I think NEM could've been better if the supporting cast Riker, Troi, Crusher, Geordi and Word were given more to do. Make NEM sort of a goodbye tour before the whole TNG crew splits up. Have Riker and Troi on the Titan following the ENT to Romulus, have Geordi find a tactical weakness in the scimtar, have Word lead a balls to the wall charge against the Remans on the scimitar instead of Old man Picard, give Crusher and Picard a happily ever after ending as the only two who remain on Enterprise.

 

[DalekJim]

I have the opposite problem with the TOS cast as I do the TNG cast in Nemesis. In movies 3-6 the TOS cast don't look tired they look uh... way too happy to be there. They were all fine in Wrath of Khan but after that it feels like some light-entertainment ensemble so it's hard to take the threat seriously. George Takei can't seem to hide his shit-eating grin for more than 5 seconds, Nichols always seems insanely pleased to be on camera and Doohan is stuck playing some weird comedy cartoon character.

I felt the situation in First Contact or Insurrection was serious unlike in TOS movies 3-6 where the cast gave the movies a far too friendly tone. Koenig is the only one outside the core 3 that seems to understand drama.

I'd agree Nemesis is a better film than Trek 09 (If only because Shinzon was an alright villain and Nero is the worst Trek baddie!) but I'd probably take Trek 09 over Generations. Both would be at the bottom of my movie rankings and are the films at their laziest but Trek 09 at least has the excuse of being a new cast testing the waters with the public. Generations had no excuse for being as mundane and half-arsed as it was.

 

[Relayer1]

I think the problem was simply that none of the TNG films were very good. Certainly nowhere near as good as the series at its best.

I don't like First Contact very much, but the others were dismal, although Nemesis was somewhat better than Insurrection and Generations...

 

[BillJ]

I think the problem was simply that none of the TNG films were very good. Certainly nowhere near as good as the series at its best.

I don't like First Contact very much, but the others were dismal, although Nemesis was somewhat better than Insurrection and Generations...

It doesn't say much for the movies when Nemesis is the best of the bunch.

 

[Vasquez Rocks]

TNG was a great TV series from the 2nd season onwards to the end. However it was a very lackluster movie franchise. The TV series was an ensemble show and the movies changed the characters and it turned to Picard and Data and Picard going from the dignified diplomat to the rule breaking action hero. Everything set up about Data from the TV series into Generations was suddenly forgot about after that. The writers wanted early TNG curious and innocent Data back and it just felt weird. Plus a lot of stuff happened in that first movie GEN which was huge for the TNG universe. The E-D was destroyed, Data got emotions, Worf was promoted, the Duras sisters were killed, and ofcourse Picard meets James. T. Kirk. All of these plots are big events for TNG and would have been a 2 or 3 parter of the TV series, but instead they got crammed into the 1st movie.

Now First Contact did work b/c we were able to accept Picard as an action hero in that movie b/c of his utter hatred for the Borg, which does have it's roots in the TNG TV series. There's another problem with the TNG movies, not enough good villains from the TV show could be used in a movie. The Romulans are interesting to Trekkers, but otherwise they are big shoulder pad wearing bores.

Sometimes I wonder if it was actually First Contact which torpedoed the Picard character we knew and loved from TV. GENS clearly shows us TV Picard, a man who tries to reason with Soran, and who tries to use brute force only once all other options are extinguished. FC, as you rightly say, still feels 'correct' with TV Picard, but only because the Borg situation opens up an old wound that he never truly healed. The kicker comes in Insurrection, where the relative success of FC seems to have resulted in the writer saying "Okay, so Picard is now an action hero". The unique qualities which made him stand out on TNG when compared opposite Shatner's Kirk were abandoned, and in the remaining two movies we got a very different interpretation of Picard. What the writers forgot is that his character transformation in FC was driven by the situation. The Borg were a wild card. His character transformation in INS and NEM on the other hand is driven by nothing. It just seems so out of left field, and ends up looking bizarre to those of us who have watched this character for 7+ years on television.

He's not all action in those two movies. It might seem that way at first, but with Insurrection he does try to reason with Admiral Dougherty before he resorts to taking action. Much of the fighting comes in the second half of the film. Same with Nemesis. There's the ready room scene between him and Shinzon where he actually stops the battle between the two ships and tries to reach him through reason. Only after all talk fails does he go action mode.

TV Picard is in those movies, maybe not all the way through, but then again there were some "action" Picard episodes on the series too. I think the movies had a pretty decent balance between the two. Do I wish they could have done more? Sure, but I'm willing to bet the studio wouldn't have gone for a less action filled science fiction film. Afterall they were the ones who wanted a more "actiony" ending in INS with the Enterprise coming to save the day and guns blazing.

 

[DalekJim]

I think Picard was pretty dead-on in Insurrection. He didn't get much action really and his more memorable scenes are of him giving moral speeches.

We didn't get anything as pointless as say, a young Kirk fleeing from the police in a car blaring out classic rock . Or a random ice monster attack. All the action in Insurrection made sense in its placement in the film, even if some things are goofy like the joystick.

 

[RAMA]

I think the problem was simply that none of the TNG films were very good. Certainly nowhere near as good as the series at its best.

I don't like First Contact very much, but the others were dismal, although Nemesis was somewhat better than Insurrection and Generations...

It doesn't say much for the movies when Nemesis is the best of the bunch.

In terms of critical ratings on Rotten Tomatoes , it's: ST09: 95% , STFC: 92%, STII: 91%

 

[BillJ]

I think the problem was simply that none of the TNG films were very good. Certainly nowhere near as good as the series at its best.

I don't like First Contact very much, but the others were dismal, although Nemesis was somewhat better than Insurrection and Generations...

It doesn't say much for the movies when Nemesis is the best of the bunch.

In terms of critical ratings on Rotten Tomatoes , it's: ST09: 95% , STFC: 92%, STII: 91%

Nemesis was the deepest thematically of the TNG films.

 

[sonak]

It doesn't say much for the movies when Nemesis is the best of the bunch.

In terms of critical ratings on Rotten Tomatoes , it's: ST09: 95% , STFC: 92%, STII: 91%

Nemesis was the deepest thematically of the TNG films.

true, but only for lack of strong competition.

 

[Nero's Shadow]

Should have stopped at generations in my opinion ?? FC ok INS awful now when I re watch it NEM ok ish......

What would have been good is putting some new Characters in generations then putting them in every othe TNG film mix it up a bit IMO also perhaps bringing DS9 characters into the mix maybe DS9.

Fair enough fans paradise but hard to explain to normal movie goers ???

 

[Lance]

I think Picard was pretty dead-on in Insurrection. He didn't get much action really and his more memorable scenes are of him giving moral speeches.

We didn't get anything as pointless as say, a young Kirk fleeing from the police in a car blaring out classic rock . Or a random ice monster attack. All the action in Insurrection made sense in its placement in the film, even if some things are goofy like the joystick.

I think it's perfectly true to Riker's character that he thinks he can make the Enterprise do what he wants simply by taking a firm grip on his stick and giving it a little waggle.

 

[DalekJim]

I marathoned all the Trek films this weekend. I'd put Insurrection and First Contact in my Top 5 of the movie series, below Wrath of Khan, The Motion Picture and Undiscovered Country. They're not amazing films or anything but they were highly enjoyable watches, whereas I found Voyage Home a chore for pandering/spoon-feeding too much to non-fans and Trek haters. Nemesis was very... flat. Not awful, just flat.

So, I maintain that Generations gets the hate that the other TNG films deserve. It's a film with no drive or purpose. The only film of the original 10 that I can say I dislike. The rest are all pretty watchable.

 

[BillJ]

...whereas I found Voyage Home a chore for pandering/spoon-feeding too much to non-fans and Trek haters.

Trek haters.

It was made by essentially the same people who made The Wrath of Khan.