Star Wars The Clone Wars Season Five News and Discussion

[Christopher]

We're talking about the use of the word Knight versus Order.

There's no discrepancy there at all; those are just two different ways of saying the same thing. A society or fellowship of knights is known as a chivalric order, or a military order, depending on its nature and purpose. So "Jedi Order" would simply be a term for the society of Jedi Knights. I was just remarking that it seemed odd that the actual word "Knight" wasn't being appended to "Jedi" as much, if at all, in recent years as it was in the past. But that's just about vocabulary usage, not the nature of the organization.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

We're talking about the use of the word Knight versus Order.

There's no discrepancy there at all; those are just two different ways of saying the same thing. A society or fellowship of knights is known as a chivalric order, or a military order, depending on its nature and purpose. So "Jedi Order" would simply be a term for the society of Jedi Knights. I was just remarking that it seemed odd that the actual word "Knight" wasn't being appended to "Jedi" as much, if at all, in recent years as it was in the past. But that's just about vocabulary usage, not the nature of the organization.

Perhaps we're talking about two different things then.

I was talking about how not all Jedi in the Jedi Order have the rank of Knight. Some—the leadership—have the rank of Master. Is it discourteous to refer to a Jedi Master as a Jedi Knight? I have no idea.

If it isn't, then sure, there's no real discrepancy.

But if it is, then it doesn't make sense to refer to the whole order as an order of Jedi Knights, because they're not all knights.

 

[Christopher]

^But I'm not talking about the group as a whole, I'm talking about the individuals. I don't remember the last time I heard a character referred to as a Jedi Knight rather than just a Jedi, or a Master or a Padawan.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

^But I'm not talking about the group as a whole, I'm talking about the individuals. I don't remember the last time I heard a character referred to as a Jedi Knight rather than just a Jedi, or a Master or a Padawan.

So like I said, we're talking about two different things.

 

[Booji]

Well, if you want an in universe explanation, it could be said that Jedi of the Master rank didn't handle any peace keeping duties until the Clone War. Peace keeping was left to Knights. Once shit hit the fan, then the Masters got involved cause their numbers were dwindling so much. So what Obi Wan said was true, from a certain point of view.

 

[Christopher]

^Err, no, because I'm talking about the actual use of the word "Knight" in the films and TV series. I'm not a follower of all the Expanded Universe whatsit. I'm just a casual viewer. I've seen the movies and I've seen the Clone Wars TV shows (plus I saw the Holiday Special back when it first aired and the Ewok TV movies and a bit of the early cartoons). And I read the early books like Splinter of the Mind's Eye and the Brian Daley Han Solo novels and a few more since. And in my experience as a casual viewer, it seems to me that I'm hearing "Jedi Knight" less often than I used to. I'm not even sure if that's true, it's just my impression. I'm not asking for some in-universe handwave, I'm just asking if my perception can be verified that in real life the people who write the scripts for Star Wars productions are less inclined to use the phrase "Jedi Knight" than they were a few decades ago.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Well, if you want an in universe explanation, it could be said that Jedi of the Master rank didn't handle any peace keeping duties until the Clone War. Peace keeping was left to Knights. Once shit hit the fan, then the Masters got involved cause their numbers were dwindling so much. So what Obi Wan said was true, from a certain point of view.

OK.

^Err, no, because I'm talking about the actual use of the word "Knight" in the films and TV series. I'm not a follower of all the Expanded Universe whatsit. I'm just a casual viewer. I've seen the movies and I've seen the Clone Wars TV shows (plus I saw the Holiday Special back when it first aired and the Ewok TV movies and a bit of the early cartoons). And I read the early books like Splinter of the Mind's Eye and the Brian Daley Han Solo novels and a few more since. And in my experience as a casual viewer, it seems to me that I'm hearing "Jedi Knight" less often than I used to. I'm not even sure if that's true, it's just my impression. I'm not asking for some in-universe handwave, I'm just asking if my perception can be verified that in real life the people who write the scripts for Star Wars productions are less inclined to use the phrase "Jedi Knight" than they were a few decades ago.

flavaflav's reply is actually spot on.

His reply addressed what I was talking about, not what you were.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

In TCW, all the main characters in the Jedi have the rank of Master, including Kenobi [who is no longer a Knight, as he called himself in the OT], but except Anakin and Ahsoka, who are Knight and Padawan, respectively.

Just going by the cast roster, there just really aren't many Knights in the picture.

 

[Beagleman]

I always thought the word Master is used similar to Sir, either a formal adress or an official rank...

 

[Shawnster]

A question just occurred to me. In the original trilogy, the order that Obi-Wan Kenobi had belonged to was referred to as the Jedi Knights. That's how I grew up thinking of them. But now it seems to me that they're just called the Jedi or the Jedi Order or something. Has the "Jedi Knight" usage fallen out of favor?

It would seem so.

That reminds me of something else sorta related: the various uses of the term "master." I believe Barriss Offee addressed Anakin as "master" in front of the elevator, even though she's not his Padawan, and Anakin was never a Jedi Master.

I thought she said Masters, plural. She was addressing both Anakin and Asoka. It struck me because I didn't know or forgot Asoca was no longer a Padawan. Or, maybe she still is.

I never took Knight to be a specific title distinct from Master. I always understood that a Padawan graduates to Knighthood. My impression is that all Jedi Masters are Knights, but not all Knights are Masters.

Of course, I could be mistaken. I haven't read any EU since Kevin J. Anderson's first novel.

Master is used by 3PO when talking to Luke. But that's not quite the same as Master Yoda. As a matter of fact, I always took it that a Jedi Master was someone that trained Jedi. So, that goes back to my earlier statement. Some Jedi Knights do not train pupils. In my mind, they would not be Masters.

 

[Christopher]

His reply addressed what I was talking about, not what you were.

Why are you treating this like a competition? It's not like I hijacked your conversation. I'm the one who initially brought up the point that "Jedi Knight" seemed to be used less in modern SW productions. I'm just wondering a) if that really is the case and b) why, in real life, the change in usage might have happened. Maybe you got the answer to what you were talking about, and that's fine for you, but it would be nice if I could get some responses to my fairly simple questions too.

 

[Booji]

Why are you treating this like a competition? It's not like I hijacked your conversation. I'm the one who initially brought up the point that "Jedi Knight" seemed to be used less in modern SW productions. I'm just wondering a) if that really is the case and b) why, in real life, the change in usage might have happened. Maybe you got the answer to what you were talking about, and that's fine for you, but it would be nice if I could get some responses to my fairly simple questions too.

No, that's not the case. Next topic...

 

[Christopher]

I don't get why I'm hitting this wall of rudeness here about a simple, harmless question. Have I somehow unintentionally infringed upon an issue that's emotionally loaded for Star Wars fans or something?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I don't get why I'm hitting this wall of rudeness here about a simple, harmless question. Have I somehow unintentionally infringed upon an issue that's emotionally loaded for Star Wars fans or something?

His reply addressed what I was talking about, not what you were.

Why are you treating this like a competition? It's not like I hijacked your conversation. I'm the one who initially brought up the point that "Jedi Knight" seemed to be used less in modern SW productions. I'm just wondering a) if that really is the case and b) why, in real life, the change in usage might have happened. Maybe you got the answer to what you were talking about, and that's fine for you, but it would be nice if I could get some responses to my fairly simple questions too.

No, Christopher, I'm not treating this like a competition. I was simply clarifying what context those remarks were made in, because it's unfair to say that someone's reply is in error when it's not.

And no one's hijacked anyone's conversation. If you think that that's happening, that's just bizarre. Ditto for rudeness. It's, frankly, rude to insinuate that there is rudeness, especially when people—including me—really are trying to talk with you and address the points that you want to talk about, in addition to their own.

Maybe you're not getting replies that are meaningful to you on the points you're trying to address, but that's not from people not trying. I thought I understood what you were talking about in the first place, but evidently not.

Even so, as for your (a) and (b) issues, if you will care to reread my posts, I've been trying to address your questions all along, including—if not especially—in my immediately previous post.

Yes, I've noticed that Knights are mentioned less, but I haven't data-mined TCW transcripts to count occurrences, and I'm not going to. Besides, how do you measure many vs. few relative to the OT, when there are only 6+ hours of OT vs. I don't know how many hours of PT/TCW.

But as I basically suggested in my immediately previous post, there would naturally be [in some sense] sparse mentioning of Knights in TCW relative to the OT, since almost none of the main Jedi characters in TCW have the rank of Knight, but in ANH apparently all Jedi were considered Knights.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

A question just occurred to me. In the original trilogy, the order that Obi-Wan Kenobi had belonged to was referred to as the Jedi Knights. That's how I grew up thinking of them. But now it seems to me that they're just called the Jedi or the Jedi Order or something. Has the "Jedi Knight" usage fallen out of favor?

It would seem so.

That reminds me of something else sorta related: the various uses of the term "master." I believe Barriss Offee addressed Anakin as "master" in front of the elevator, even though she's not his Padawan, and Anakin was never a Jedi Master.

I thought she said Masters, plural. She was addressing both Anakin and Asoka. It struck me because I didn't know or forgot Asoca was no longer a Padawan. Or, maybe she still is.

I never took Knight to be a specific title distinct from Master. I always understood that a Padawan graduates to Knighthood. My impression is that all Jedi Masters are Knights, but not all Knights are Masters.

Of course, I could be mistaken. I haven't read any EU since Kevin J. Anderson's first novel.

Master is used by 3PO when talking to Luke. But that's not quite the same as Master Yoda. As a matter of fact, I always took it that a Jedi Master was someone that trained Jedi. So, that goes back to my earlier statement. Some Jedi Knights do not train pupils. In my mind, they would not be Masters.

Good point. Master could be used in different senses in different contexts at different times.

And you're absolutely right about Barriss Offee saying "Masters" in the plural. I cranked the volume and ran it with CC, and she says "Masters". But Anakin is a Knight and Ahsoka is still a Padawan, so it must be something like you say, perhaps a generic honorific that could apply to anyone.

Frankly, the whole Jedi rank thing seems a little dodgy to me. Just in terms of basic vocabulary, you would think that only a "master" could have an "apprentice", wouldn't you. The OT was so much clearer.

 

[JD]

His reply addressed what I was talking about, not what you were.

Why are you treating this like a competition? It's not like I hijacked your conversation. I'm the one who initially brought up the point that "Jedi Knight" seemed to be used less in modern SW productions. I'm just wondering a) if that really is the case and b) why, in real life, the change in usage might have happened. Maybe you got the answer to what you were talking about, and that's fine for you, but it would be nice if I could get some responses to my fairly simple questions too.

No it's not just you. I have a feeling it might just be because it's quicker and easier to just say Jedi instead of Jedi Knight. This is coming from nowhere but me, but I'm thinking perhaps Jedi Knight could be seen as more formal. And I don't think they really used the term Jedi Knight much in the OT after ANH. Didn't Luke say he was a Jedi, like his father before him, not a Jedi Knight?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Didn't Luke say he was a Jedi, like his father before him, not a Jedi Knight?

Yes, he did.

Also, the film was called Return of the Jedi, not Return of the Jedi Knights.

 

[Christopher]

No, Christopher, I'm not treating this like a competition. I was simply clarifying what context those remarks were made in, because it's unfair to say that someone's reply is in error when it's not.

Huh?? I didn't say the reply was in error, I just said it wasn't addressing the particular question I was asking. The conversation seemed to branch out in a different direction from what I was asking about. I was only trying to clarify what I was asking in the first place.

And no one's hijacked anyone's conversation. If you think that that's happening, that's just bizarre.

What I meant was that your reply sounded like you were criticizing me for trying to divert the conversation away from what you were talking about -- which was strange, because I was the one who started the conversation.

Yes, I've noticed that Knights are mentioned less, but I haven't data-mined TCW transcripts to count occurrences, and I'm not going to. Besides, how do you measure many vs. few relative to the OT, when there are only 6+ hours of OT vs. I don't know how many hours of PT/TCW.

But as I basically suggested in my immediately previous post, there would naturally be [in some sense] sparse mentioning of Knights in TCW relative to the OT, since almost none of the main Jedi characters in TCW have the rank of Knight, but in ANH apparently all Jedi were considered Knights.

Has it been established that Knight is a distinct, limited rank among the Jedi? If so, who actually has that rank and who doesn't? I've just heard/noticed it being used so little these days that I wouldn't know if that's the case or not. I'm sure a lot of this stuff is well-known to dedicated SW fans, but I'm just a casual viewer asking some entry-level questions and there's a lot I don't know.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Oh, good grief.

 

[Christopher]

Look, we're talking past each other. Misunderstandings are easy online, and I think we've both misheard each other. It's not important enough to be worth all this. I regret the misunderstanding. Let's move on.