Star Trek: INS- Son'a/Dominion Question

[sonak]

Meanwhile there's really nothing to stop the So'na from sharing their particles with the Dominion

This is after the Dominion War ended

So they specifically said when the film takes place, because it could be either way and since the person I am responding to is of the opinion that Insurrection takes place during the war that's why I'm pointing that problem out.



Yes because one group staying on another group's good side when they haven't gotten what they wanted yet an as such still need good relations with the other group to get it really shows how they act after not needing that other group anymore.

News flash you can't say for certain if the Son'a would screw the Feds over or not until they got the particles and considering Ru'afo doesn't particularly like the federation given his rant about how much harder federation procedure and politics made everything and his belief that all Picard had to do to put a stop to everything was complain to the council I think the Feds would get screwed over.




"Ran out" as in the amount they harvest runs out since the simulation kind of looks like the rings are destroyed meaning no new source of particles

it would help by doubling the life-span of your available troops

Also would enable the Federation to rejuvenate long retired experienced personnel, pull them out of retirement.

Which doesn't help with getting shot or spaced or blown into little pieces

And it doesn't matter if the entire ship wasn't destroyed the poor bastards standing the the section that were still probably got spaced if they were standing in it when the section was destroyed like Kirk was thought to have been in Generations and if not blasted by shrapnel is still a possibility and Riker and Garrett didn't look like they were getting up again in Yesterday's Enterprise after they got hit with it.

So no I don't think magic youth particles mean jack in a war.

you can't negate the value of the particles just by continually bringing up random scenarios where they don't help. It's just silly. It's like saying that tanks don't help armies that much because after all, you can't use them to clean the soldiers' clothes. Well yes, you've got me there, tanks don't clean soldiers' uniforms, therefore you've shown them to be useless in a war.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

you can't negate the value of the particles just by continually bringing up random scenarios where they don't help. It's just silly. It's like saying that tanks don't help armies that much because after all, you can't use them to clean the soldiers' clothes. Well yes, you've got me there, tanks don't clean soldiers' uniforms, therefore you've shown them to be useless in a war.

what is this random scenario crap you keep going on about have you never watched any of the Dominion War episodes? Becuase those random scenarios are what usually happens in the battles shown which means pretty much they aren't random scenarios.

And no the particles don't help with major injuries which was shown when the chick Picard was interested in was injured in a cave in and said to be dying, she needed federation medical tech to survive.

So no I don't think that the particles will help in a war, mostly becuase you have done nothing to refute my point except to show that you have no idea how war works in Star Trek.

And it is not saying that tanks don't help armies that much because after all, you can't use them to clean the soldiers' clothes.

It is say that magic rejuvenation radiation will help soldiers except against bullets, explosives, and ect. aka what they usually deal with in combat.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Arguing the "medical benefits" and who ultimately gets them is really sort of pointless They really aren't what this whole thing is about. Whoever ends up with them pretty much wins ... everything. A secret like that doesn't stay a secret for very long--not like it would if it were left on a backwater planet in a remote, inhospitable part of space.

The Son'a wouldn't have to tell the Founders. They'd find out quickly enough on their own, as would the Klingons and the Romulans and the Cardies, and the Breen, and the Tzenkethi, and whoever else is running around out there.

This thing is so big that it's going to be contained to the Alpha either. Queen Steelpants, in her endless pursuit of perfection, will assemble her legion space zombies immediately. The Vidiians? Of course they're going to explore every dubious mean necessary to find a way to the Alpha quadrant.

Hell, let's throw, Vulcans, Andorians, Rigelians, etc. into the mix. Because, let's be honest, when we say "Federation" in this context, we really mean "humans."

And it isn't just about ensuring control over the particles. There's also the matter of the perceived threat they represent. Creating a Khan army is the best case scenario. At worst, we're talking bout creating an entire sub-race of demigods to whom the entire Milky Way (and probably parts of Andromeda) instantly becomes one big sandbox.

Even The Q have to perceive this as a threat. After all, what is omnipotence if not unlimited evolutionary potential over infinite time? These particles solve the time problem, and they take a huge slice (like a few hundred millennia's worth) out of the potential pie.

In the end, we're left with one massive slippery slope that dumps strait into a bottomless quagmire and potentially the utter annihilation of Earth. Uber panaceas would seem pretty pointless then.

To put things into perspective, if some universe-shattering resource were discovered on Earth tomorrow, all economic and military alliances would be completely thrown out the window. Mutually assured nuclear destruction would be rendered meaningless. Basically, we'd be living in one massively fucked-up world. (Hey, I just had a great idea for a novel!)


Anyone who doesn't understand that this scenario is not only plausible, but probable, is being naive and short-sighted. It can happen on modern day Earth, or it can happen in a mythical interstellar future.

Really, the best course of action for all parties would have been to say "Neat!" and turn the fuck around and go home. Contain the Son'a. Want to put the "needs of the many" to good use? Shoot Ru'afo in the face. Gallatin and friends can go home, and the non-Ba'ku Son'a committed enough crimes to have them locked-up in a far-off place forever. Destroy any and all evidence the place ever existed, and hope for the best.

 

[sonak]

you can't negate the value of the particles just by continually bringing up random scenarios where they don't help. It's just silly. It's like saying that tanks don't help armies that much because after all, you can't use them to clean the soldiers' clothes. Well yes, you've got me there, tanks don't clean soldiers' uniforms, therefore you've shown them to be useless in a war.

what is this random scenario crap you keep going on about have you never watched any of the Dominion War episodes? Becuase those random scenarios are what usually happens in the battles shown which means pretty much they aren't random scenarios.

And no the particles don't help with major injuries which was shown when the chick Picard was interested in was injured in a cave in and said to be dying, she needed federation medical tech to survive.

So no I don't think that the particles will help in a war, mostly becuase you have done nothing to refute my point except to show that you have no idea how war works in Star Trek.

And it is not saying that tanks don't help armies that much because after all, you can't use them to clean the soldiers' clothes.

It is say that magic rejuvenation radiation will help soldiers except against bullets, explosives, and ect. aka what they usually deal with in combat.

it will enable soldiers to serve for much longer periods of time. It can heal conditions that might have prevented service before. It can bring back soldiers out of retirement to serve in battle again.

You can continue to bring up all of the scenarios you like in which the particles won't help, but it doesn't change the obvious ways in which they WILL help.

Saying "well they don't cure being vaporized" isn't a serious refutation, because no one is claiming that the particles will help in EVERY scenario that comes up in a war.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

you can't negate the value of the particles just by continually bringing up random scenarios where they don't help. It's just silly. It's like saying that tanks don't help armies that much because after all, you can't use them to clean the soldiers' clothes. Well yes, you've got me there, tanks don't clean soldiers' uniforms, therefore you've shown them to be useless in a war.

what is this random scenario crap you keep going on about have you never watched any of the Dominion War episodes? Becuase those random scenarios are what usually happens in the battles shown which means pretty much they aren't random scenarios.

And no the particles don't help with major injuries which was shown when the chick Picard was interested in was injured in a cave in and said to be dying, she needed federation medical tech to survive.

So no I don't think that the particles will help in a war, mostly becuase you have done nothing to refute my point except to show that you have no idea how war works in Star Trek.

And it is not saying that tanks don't help armies that much because after all, you can't use them to clean the soldiers' clothes.

It is say that magic rejuvenation radiation will help soldiers except against bullets, explosives, and ect. aka what they usually deal with in combat.

it will enable soldiers to serve for much longer periods of time.

Which doesn't help the federation IN A WAR unless in drags on for decades at which point the quadrant is probably pretty screwed what with wrecked planets and destroyed fleets and space stations all over the place.

It can heal conditions that might have prevented service before.

Federation science looked like it could do that just fine. And it can heal major injuries unlike the particles.

It can bring back soldiers out of retirement to serve in battle again.

Wherein they can still be killed by weapons which wars are fought with, so all its doing is letting the federation catch up a little in the war of attrition but not enough to void endless supply of clones and speedy shipyards.

You can continue to bring up all of the scenarios you like in which the particles won't help, but it doesn't change the obvious ways in which they WILL help.

Which doesn't mean a whole lot when the scenarios consist of much of the fighting which if isn't addressed doesn't help the federation to win which means people get to spend their doubled lifespans in Dominion slave camps.

Saying "well they don't cure being vaporized" isn't a serious refutation, because no one is claiming that the particles will help in EVERY scenario that comes up in a war.

No you just treat being vaporized like its no big deal and ignore that increase lifespans and doing what federation science can already largely do aren't a game changer in a conflict where people are blown to bits, shot, spaced, and all other sorts of nasty demises which are the reason war is a nasty thing.

 

[sonak]

what is this random scenario crap you keep going on about have you never watched any of the Dominion War episodes? Becuase those random scenarios are what usually happens in the battles shown which means pretty much they aren't random scenarios.

And no the particles don't help with major injuries which was shown when the chick Picard was interested in was injured in a cave in and said to be dying, she needed federation medical tech to survive.

So no I don't think that the particles will help in a war, mostly becuase you have done nothing to refute my point except to show that you have no idea how war works in Star Trek.

And it is not saying that tanks don't help armies that much because after all, you can't use them to clean the soldiers' clothes.

It is say that magic rejuvenation radiation will help soldiers except against bullets, explosives, and ect. aka what they usually deal with in combat.

it will enable soldiers to serve for much longer periods of time.

Which doesn't help the federation IN A WAR unless in drags on for decades at which point the quadrant is probably pretty screwed what with wrecked planets and destroyed fleets and space stations all over the place.



Federation science looked like it could do that just fine. And it can heal major injuries unlike the particles.



Wherein they can still be killed by weapons which wars are fought with, so all its doing is letting the federation catch up a little in the war of attrition but not enough to void endless supply of clones and speedy shipyards.

You can continue to bring up all of the scenarios you like in which the particles won't help, but it doesn't change the obvious ways in which they WILL help.

Which doesn't mean a whole lot when the scenarios consist of much of the fighting which if isn't addressed doesn't help the federation to win which means people get to spend their doubled lifespans in Dominion slave camps.

Saying "well they don't cure being vaporized" isn't a serious refutation, because no one is claiming that the particles will help in EVERY scenario that comes up in a war.

No you just treat being vaporized like its no big deal and ignore that increase lifespans and doing what federation science can already largely do aren't a game changer in a conflict where people are blown to bits, shot, spaced, and all other sorts of nasty demises which are the reason war is a nasty thing.

the Federation had no way of knowing at the time of INS that the war was not going to be a long one. Manpower will ALWAYS be important in a war, especially one fought over vast distances and for long periods of time. Continue to pretend that the particles wouldn't have helped as long as you feel like.

 

[Captain Verata]

And no the particles don't help with major injuries which was shown when the chick Picard was interested in was injured in a cave in and said to be dying, she needed federation medical tech to survive.

The admiral said some of the Son'a couldn't wait for 10 years of normal exposure which would suggest that somehow the particles used with tech would make them work faster and better.

 

[T'Girl]

Riker and Garrett didn't look like they were getting up again

But many people injured like Jadzia Dax could have "gotten up again" with the help of the particles. Jadzia, after being attacked in the Temple, was taken to sick bay alive. Dying subsequently.

Not everyone on Star Trek dies right away. Could the particle help everyone, no. But you can't say that they wouldn't help anyone. This makes them an asset.

"Ran out" as in the amount they harvest runs out since the simulation kind of looks like the rings are destroyed meaning no new source of particles

It's difficult to see what your point is here. If the particles have a limited duration, then the environment of the ring planet's system would have been replenishing them in some fashion. Therefor if the particle you have lose effectiveness in time, you simply return to the original source, and get more.

However, if the particle's emissions are perpetual, then the Federation's particles will never "run out."

Remember Hartzilla, the particles didn't run out while in orbit of the ring planet, the last thing anybody would want to do is change the particle's emissions in the process of the harvest. So the particles in orbit, are the particles after harvest.

 

[BillJ]

...

While my endgame would be different, I've been preaching exactly what your saying for years now.

Welcome to Galactic Clusterfuck 101.

Let's just say Ru'afo and his buddies wouldn't be going home for quite a while after the project was complete.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

"Ran out" as in the amount they harvest runs out since the simulation kind of looks like the rings are destroyed meaning no new source of particles

It's difficult to see what your point is here. If the particles have a limited duration, then the environment of the ring planet's system would have been replenishing them in some fashion. Therefor if the particle you have lose effectiveness in time, you simply return to the original source, and get more.

However, if the particle's emissions are perpetual, then the Federation's particles will never "run out."

Remember Hartzilla, the particles didn't run out while in orbit of the ring planet, the last thing anybody would want to do is change the particle's emissions in the process of the harvest. So the particles in orbit, are the particles after harvest.

Again in the simulation it looked like THE. RINGS. WERE. DISINTEGRATING. As in no more rings, as in no more radiation being generated. If there are no new particles being generated because THERE ARE NO RINGS TO GENERATE THEM then that means there is only a limited supply that will eventually run out.

 

[CorporalClegg]

...

While my endgame would be different, I've been preaching exactly what your saying for years now.

Welcome to Galactic Clusterfuck 101.

Let's just say Ru'afo and his buddies wouldn't be going home for quite a while after the project was complete.

Captain William T. Ridama would be one serious bad-ass motherfucker.

 

[T'Girl]

Again in the simulation it looked like THE. RINGS. WERE. DISINTEGRATING.

Okay, that would have been the (IIRC) "isolinic reaction" that allowed the particulates in orbit to be collected. This is also the source of the heat that require the Baku to be removed.

As in no more rings, as in no more radiation being generated.

Not quite the particales were removed. However the particale would have continued to to generate the radiation where they were taken.

]If there are no new particles being generated because THERE ARE NO RINGS TO GENERATE THEM

I don't think that where the new particles were originating.

then that means there is only a limited supply that will eventually run out.

Okay, this is where you're missing something.

It has to do with where the particale came from in the first place. They could have formed with the planet itself billions of years in the past. Which means they are billions of years old, and are permanate.

Or, they are emitted by the systems sun, some paticales are captured by the planet's magnetic field and formed into a ring. Somewhat like our own Van Allen Radiation Belt. The majority of the particale travel outward into the Brier Patch, where they form a very thin defuse cloud.

Or siilar to above, they originate in the Brier Patch, and are again captured.

If the particale are permanate, then no problem with the collected particale, the Federation (and others) will have them forever.

If the particales in the ring do age out and basically die in time, this means the particale in the ring were being "resupplied" as fast as the existing particale died.

So when the Federation's collected particale died, they simply return to the planet and collect the new particles that the plante has captured.

 

[Timo]

Okay, that would have been the (IIRC) "isolinic reaction" that allowed the particulates in orbit to be collected. This is also the source of the heat that require the Baku to be removed.

The reason for the collection was not just to gather some elixir of youth for the Son'a. An equally important reason for the operation was to ruin the fountain of youth for good, so that the Ba'ku would die of old age just like any other members of their species. I'm sure the Son'a would have made sure that the rings (or whatever the fundamental source of the health effects) would be completely destroyed, hopefully also with some painful side effects to those down on the planet.

It was a mission of vengeance and destruction, after all, and the Son'a were the only ones who knew how the technology worked. Either they would have slipped in a destructive element or eleven without the technologically less advanced Starfleet noticing - or then they would have slipped in those elements come hell or high water, since destruction of Ba'ku happiness was a non-negotiable mission goal.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BillJ]

It was a mission of vengeance and destruction...

Have you even seen the movie?

It would've went smooth as butter until Picard stuck his nose in and pissed off Ru'afo.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Okay, that would have been the (IIRC) "isolinic reaction" that allowed the particulates in orbit to be collected. This is also the source of the heat that require the Baku to be removed.

The reason for the collection was not just to gather some elixir of youth for the Son'a. An equally important reason for the operation was to ruin the fountain of youth for good, so that the Ba'ku would die of old age just like any other members of their species. I'm sure the Son'a would have made sure that the rings (or whatever the fundamental source of the health effects) would be completely destroyed, hopefully also with some painful side effects to those down on the planet.

It was a mission of vengeance and destruction, after all, and the Son'a were the only ones who knew how the technology worked. Either they would have slipped in a destructive element or eleven without the technologically less advanced Starfleet noticing - or then they would have slipped in those elements come hell or high water, since destruction of Ba'ku happiness was a non-negotiable mission goal.

Timo Saloniemi

It was explicitly stated in the film that harvesting the radiation using the Son'a collector would render the planet uninhabitable. It wouldn't just make the Ba'ku mortal, it would kill them. That's the whole reason they had to bother about trying to surreptitiously move them.

 

[Timo]

Sure, sure. But the idea that the process would somehow leave the fountain of youth intact runs contrary to the explicit desire of the Son'a to make the Ba'ku suffer.

We have little reason to believe that the planet needed to be rendered uninhabitable in the collection process. There might have been some truth to the Son'a needing the collector so that they would get the cure in time, but they could and would have lied about the collateral damage: a harmless collection process would probably have been perfectly possible, too, but that would have been contrary to Son'a interests.

Have you even seen the movie? It would've went smooth as butter until Picard stuck his nose in and pissed off Ru'afo.

Sure - as long as the definition of "smooth" includes all the Ba'ku dying horribly.

The holographic transport would never have arrived safely anywhere, that much is certain.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BillJ]

Sure - as long as the definition of "smooth" includes all the Ba'ku dying horribly.

The holographic transport would never have arrived safely anywhere, that much is certain.

Man you make up some wild shit without any actual evidence to back it up.

 

[Timo]

Don't you mean you do? The idea that the Son'a would let the Ba'ku live is so out of the left field that I can't fathom how you could get it from watching this movie.

The events progressed from lie to lie, until at the very end the truth was revealed. And the truth was that this was all a blood feud.

Picard: "You brought the Federation into the middle of a blood feud, Admiral. The children have returned to expel their elders, just as they were once expelled. Except that Ru'afo's need for revenge has now escalated to parricide."

"Escalated" is Picard's estimate. But consider Rua'fo's earlier words:

"Just don't forget what they did to us. ...We'll have them rounded up in a day or two. We needn't bother with the Federation holoship any more. Just get the holding cells ready."

Obviously, the holoship was never going to reach its destination, as the Ba'ku would then get a chance to reveal the truth to the Federation. The Son'a would know that the Ba'ku were no primitives: they could not be fooled with holograms into believing they were still on Ba'ku. And the Son'a would know the Federation would not like the truth, as well evidenced by their many threats regarding that, Dougherty's counterthreats, and the action taken against Riker's ship.

The case appears airtight. The Son'a were out to kill, and there was no way they could not kill and still expect to survive.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BillJ]

Obviously, the holoship was never going to reach its destination, as the Ba'ku would then get a chance to reveal the truth to the Federation.

The planet would've been stripped of the radiation and the S'ona long gone by the time the Ba'ku realized anything happened.

The case appears airtight. The Son'a were out to kill, and there was no way they could not kill and still expect to survive.

This is utter bullshit, Timo. No where is there any hint of this being anything other than a straight move until Picard gets involved and starts using the Ba'ku men, women and children as human shields. He came far closer to getting them killed than Ru'afo did. You might want to go and revisit the film.

If it was about killing, the S'ona could've simply went in and wiped the Ba'ku out and set up shop in the Briar Patch and Starfleet would've never been any wiser. If you're intent on committing a crime, why complicate it far more than it needs to be?

 

[Timo]

The planet would've been stripped of the radiation and the S'ona long gone by the time the Ba'ku realized anything happened.

The Son'a had nowhere to go. Remember that Dougherty swore that Starfleet would hunt them down for their crimes - the location of the Son'a empire was apparently well known, and its military power no match for Starfleet, at least not enough to give them immunity.

The plot necessarily involved making up some scheme for Ba'ku survival. But the plot necessarily could not tolerate the Ba'ku actually surviving. They would know way too much, and they could never be left unaware of the events; it follows that they had to be eliminated.

No where is there any hint of this being anything other than a straight move until

Yeah, until. You don't seem to understand that the movie consists of layer upon layer of lies, which are slowly peeled off, so that finally both Dougherty and Picard realize they have been working on false assumptions. What is left is a situation where the Son'a just plain cannot afford to leave any Ba'ku alive - and the revelation that they would have no desire to, anyway.

If it was about killing, the S'ona could've simply went in and wiped the Ba'ku out and set up shop in the Briar Patch and Starfleet would've never been any wiser.

But that was ruled out early in the movie, by people who were not telling lies. The case was simple enough: Ba'ku was UFP-controlled turf, and the Son'a had no business going into the Briar Patch unless the Federation gave them a permit (and an escort).

If you're intent on committing a crime, why complicate it far more than it needs to be?

Which one is more complicated, murdering a planet with one ship and none of the witnesses any wiser, or murdering a planet with an invasion fleet that has to fight through Starfleet to even reach the intended victim?

If the movie indeed takes place after the Dominion War concludes, the Son'a will have to be very, very nice to the Federation to get their permit. Being allied to the losing side of the last war bodes ill for any attempt to pursue one's goals through further war with the victors.

Timo Saloniemi