Uses of the Reliant studio model in Trek

[Dukhat]

This is less sure, but the Atlantis from "Conspiracy" might have been an Excelsior-class Starship. This is based on the fact that a diagram of this class appeared in the mission orders for this ship. Well, anyway, this ship had a registry of NCC-72007. So, it's possible that Starfleet was still making these ships as late as the 2360s.

I wouldn't put too much stock in those Conspiracy displays. The diagrams used were just random images that had no connection to the text. Two other diagrams, completely different from the Excelsior, also appear under the Atlantis entry. Plus, the ship's registry on the Starship Deploy Status chart is 32710.

DS9 had the opportunity, when they switched to CGI, to create new ship classes for the battle sequences. Instead, they simply created new models out of the existing models and added a few designs from ILM. So, there must have been a reason, other than budget, that the producers decided to reuse the old models.

There was. ILM was ordered to give up all their CGI models used in First Contact to Paramount for remapping. This included not only the three new designs (minus the Norway, as the CGI mesh was lost), but also Nebula and Miranda low-poly models used in the film, which was why we see them in the DS9 fleet scenes. As to why we also see the Excelsior, that was because they had easy access to Greg Jein's model built for VOY's "Flashback" and could scan it into a CGI model (which is also why we don't see any Ent-B-type refitted Excelsiors as CGI models).

So it was easier to remap all the FC models and scan Jein's Excelsior than to create all new CGI designs. However, this brings up an interesting thought: If DS9 is ever remastered in HD, will all those CGI fleet scenes have to be redone? And if they are redone, will the same ship designs be used?

 

[137th Gebirg]

^^^ Good question, as they were pretty spectacular to begin with. I am still in awe when I happen to see some of those scenes from Sacrifice of Angels with the two tumbling Mirandas burning up with all kinds of other carnage going on.

 

[Timo]

One doesn't build Ford Model-Ts and Ford Focuses concurrently.

...But one would keep on building things that look like Colt 1911 or Police Special for a century or two, while OTOH moving on from the Lee-Enfield to the SA80.

...later shown to be a Hood-stock footage-Excelsior, and the 5XXXX registry was not changed

Nor made canonical, thankfully.

the Atlantis from "Conspiracy" might have been an Excelsior-class Starship

Or a Lotus Flower class one, for that matter. Again a noncombatant design that could remain in production unchanged for centuries because the "threat environment" doesn't change. What worked in the 2270s should work in the 2370s, too, barring new propulsion concepts, all-new logistics strategies or major changes in the astrographical scope of operations.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dukhat]

But one would keep on building things that look like Colt 1911 or Police Special for a century or two, while OTOH moving on from the Lee-Enfield to the SA80.

You're comparing a gun to an automobile (or a starship)?

 

[Timo]

Yes.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[B.J.]

DS9 had the opportunity, when they switched to CGI, to create new ship classes for the battle sequences. Instead, they simply created new models out of the existing models and added a few designs from ILM. So, there must have been a reason, other than budget, that the producers decided to reuse the old models.

There was. ILM was ordered to give up all their CGI models used in First Contact to Paramount for remapping. This included not only the three new designs (minus the Norway, as the CGI mesh was lost), but also Nebula and Miranda low-poly models used in the film, which was why we see them in the DS9 fleet scenes. As to why we also see the Excelsior, that was because they had easy access to Greg Jein's model built for VOY's "Flashback" and could scan it into a CGI model (which is also why we don't see any Ent-B-type refitted Excelsiors as CGI models).

It would have been nice if they could have digitally kitbashed the Galaxy model they had into some of the Wolf 359 kitbash configurations, like the New Orleans, Cheyenne, and Springfield.

 

[Dukhat]

Yes.

And...those are two entirely different things.

It would have been nice if they could have digitally kitbashed the Galaxy model they had into some of the Wolf 359 kitbash configurations, like the New Orleans, Cheyenne, and Springfield.

Yes, that would have been fantastic. Instead, we see Starfleet fighting a war with the Dominion with fleets primarily composed of out-of-date ships. No wonder they almost lost.

 

[anh165]

Yes, that would have been fantastic. Instead, we see Starfleet fighting a war with the Dominion with fleets primarily composed of out-of-date ships. No wonder they almost lost.

I seriously doubt that the storyline placing Starfleet in a situation of near defeat was based around the studios re-use of TMP era models!

I think it all it boiled down those models being cost effective cannon fodder, and it allowed bland unimaginative ships (imo) like the Defiant etc to stand out and look good.

The stand off between the Lakota with all the latest 24th century trimmings still on the verge of being destroyed by a small scout ship just reeks of Berman and Braga's petty underhanded dismissal of the TOS/TMP era.

 

[Dukhat]

I seriously doubt that the storyline placing Starfleet in a situation of near defeat was based around the studios re-use of TMP era models!

Yes, I know that. As I wrote in my essays, there's usually no correlation between a ship in the script and what type of model was used to represent that ship, unless there was a specific description (i.e. a ship newer and more advanced than the Enterprise-D, for example).

I think it all it boiled down those models being cost effective cannon fodder, and it allowed bland unimaginative ships (imo) like the Defiant etc to stand out and look good.

It was cost-effective in that ILM's FC models were available, and Jein's Excelsior was available to be scanned, as opposed to creating new designs from scratch. How the ships looked compared to the Defiant had nothing to do with it.

The stand off between the Lakota with all the latest 24th century trimmings still on the verge of being destroyed by a small scout ship just reeks of Berman and Braga's petty underhanded dismissal of the TOS/TMP era.

Not quite sure what your B&B bashing means here. The Enterprise-B model was used for the Lakota because, as usual, it was deemed cheaper to reuse an older model than to build a new one. They also wanted an older ship per the script saying that the Excelsior shouldn't have as much weaponry as it does, because of it's upgrade. They weren't "dismissing" TOS/TMP.

 

[throwback]

I think the starships were subject to the demands of plot. The Voyager, one of the Federation's newest ships built to specifications acquired from battling the Borg, was consistently bested in combat by less advanced ships in the Delta Quadrant.

I don't have an issue with the older classes being used in the Dominion War. I do have an issue with them being used in the front line. And, I do have issues with Starfleet having to kitbash ships.

 

[Timo]

And...those are two entirely different things.

Not particularly different. If anything, portable weapons would have a greater excuse for being put out of production when they grow outdated. But there is no motivation for ceasing the production of "primitive" revolvers, so there certainly shouldn't be a motivation for doing major changes for a "primitive" starship which is a much more complex industrial effort to begin with and would require much more effort to redesign. Not unless something about the threat environment changes - and nothing should change for a science vessel, as its "threats" have stayed constant for billions of years already.

The Oberth could well be the revolver of the starship world, facing a stable threat environment, while the Akira would be the assault rifle, always in the need of tinkering to meet the evolving opposition.

built to specifications acquired from battling the Borg

Only a single starship type is known to have been built to such specs - the Defiant.

There might be huge disadvantages to making a ship "Borg-compatible". Such a vessel might be an inferior combatant in a fight against the Klingons, who do not stand still behind a square target three kilometers on side, without conventional shields, just waiting to be boarded by transporter.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Avro Arrow]

Yes, that would have been fantastic. Instead, we see Starfleet fighting a war with the Dominion with fleets primarily composed of out-of-date ships. No wonder they almost lost.

All the newer designs kept getting assigned to the Seventh Fleet, where they continued to get destroyed off-screen...

Maybe it's the other way around... we saw those older ships more because they had better survivability. In TWoK, the Enterprise and Reliant traded weapons fire while unshielded, and generally came out OK until the Reliant was finally overwhelmed at the end. Compare that to the Galaxy class, where if you happen to get a lucky shot on the starboard power coupling... boom!

 

[137th Gebirg]

^^^ And destroyed by a relatively outdated and underpowered scout-sized Bird of Prey, no less.

 

[USS Firefly]

^^^ And destroyed by a relatively outdated and underpowered scout-sized Bird of Prey, no less.

Well that didn't make any sense off the writers, that was just really bad writing.
The only thing they had to do was fire a couple of torpedo's too the BOP en killed them with minor damage

 

[throwback]

The script was badly written. Why wasn't Geordi's VISOR appliance not scanned for bugs? I would think that after the Romulans had discovered a way to use the VISOR against Geordi and the Enterprise, that the first thing would be to scan that thing ASAP. Yet, that didn't happen. Huh?

Another thing - wouldn't the crew realize that their shield frequency was known to the Klingons, based on the effectiveness of the torpedoes, and, knowing this, wouldn't they change the frequency? And, why was the starship fighting the BOP in a planet's gravity well? Wouldn't it better to fight the BOP outside the planet's gravity well?

I hate it when I am smarter than the fictional characters or the writers who wrote this dreck.

 

[publiusr]

Well we see that today. I have never bought a cell phone. Computer-ease escapes me. But I can't help but wonder that good old fashioned pick-pockets would get the better of folks who love immersive tech.

 

[Dukhat]

Not particularly different. If anything, portable weapons would have a greater excuse for being put out of production when they grow outdated. But there is no motivation for ceasing the production of "primitive" revolvers, so there certainly shouldn't be a motivation for doing major changes for a "primitive" starship which is a much more complex industrial effort to begin with and would require much more effort to redesign. Not unless something about the threat environment changes - and nothing should change for a science vessel, as its "threats" have stayed constant for billions of years already.

Sorry, I'm not quite buying that logic. A gun is a gun. You put bullets in it and you shoot. A starship is an advanced piece of engineering allowing its occupant to travel at FTL speeds to other planets, while also containing a multitude of systems such as computers, life-support, matter/antimatter engines, artificial gravity, weapons systems, sensor systems...the list goes on. Your comparison isn't even remotely similar.

 

[B.J.]

I understand the metaphor he's driving at. It's a little strained, but still works.

 

[Timo]

Indeed, a machine is a machine, regardless of complexity. And even that is probably too specific: a product is a product. Either it needs to change, or it doesn't need to. And the layman cannot tell the difference from looks alone.

There may be very good reasons why a paperclip doesn't need to evolve but the key to your door absolutely must; why the bicycle is just fine the way it is but the roller skate was shit before it got better; why the hull of a dry cargo vessel from a hundred years back is fine but the hull of a container ship from ten years back is hopelessly outdated for meeting the current demands of most economic movement through water; and why a howlizer from WWI would still serve while a cannon would be useless. Sometimes the reasons can be found by googling, sometimes not. With starships, we can but guess.

It isn't even a metaphor. It's more like a universal law of nature. Except you replace nature with the artifacts of civilization, and insert intelligent design where nature has none.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dukhat]

I understand the metaphor he's driving at. It's a little strained, but still works.

Yes, I understand the metaphor as well. As for the reality...not so much.